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Can you save a red economy? - 4/23/2010 10:21:08 PM

concern

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This has been raised, but to my knowledge, not clearly answered in other threads. I also don't like to extend threads to the point where they become too lengthy to be able to effectively extract relevant information, so here goes, as per the title:

Is there anything you can do to save a red economy, or are you effectively doomed at this point?

I don't think you can scrap unproductive bases and private ships. Waiting for new colonies to become productive will not occur quickly enough. I think the answer is that you can't.

So we're back to taltamir's great suggestion, that the AI needs to terminate non-profitable private entities.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/23/2010 10:30:37 PM

JosEPhII

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If you have been in the Red in both Overall Balance (top money #) and in yearly income (bottom #) for only a few months yes you can come out of it. But you have to do some serious ship/troop/agent pruning. The caveat to this is that for this period of time in the red you are basically handcuffed at attempting to colonize, upgrade, or refit anything.

I once went thru a whole year in the red. By the time I finally scrapped every ship that I had control over my empire growth had been stymied so badly that the AI's had raced by me in both # of colonies and resources. Not to mention I had virtually no ships to defend with. The Haakons (sp) then declared War on me and conquered me in just a few short months, even though my def. bases fought well. Game Over.

JosEPh

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/23/2010 11:18:04 PM

taltamir

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If your state is in the red... retire, retire, retire...

if the PRIVATE sector is in the red you are in trouble... but there is a solution:
1. Turn of automation completely.
2. Stop protecting them, let pirates and other empires destroy as many useless junk (aka, mining bases) as possible so that your private sector goes back into the black (white in this game actually)

It is very difficult though... because there is nothing you can do to decomission ships...

an alternative route is, trade maps and tech with all AI and then sell them everything you can for money... if you stockpile enough money you can colonize the right planets (high luxury) then you MIGHT be able to break out of the rut.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/23/2010 11:21:20 PM

concern

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Making mistakes is a normal part of playing any game, but being unable to recover from them is a bit disappointing. Looking forward to see how this part of the game develops.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/23/2010 11:27:35 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: concern

Making mistakes is a normal part of playing any game, but being unable to recover from them is a bit disappointing. Looking forward to see how this part of the game develops.

There are two portions that can be in the red, state or private...
State being in the red is simple... retire it...
Private being in the red is a huge a problem... It shouldn't happen in the first place since its fully automated.

What needs to happen is the private sector should automatically scrap "private" ships and buildings that are unprofitable (aka, they go bankrupt)... At least scrap enough things to not be in the red (simpler to program than per ship/base profitability)

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:14:01 AM

Erik Rutins

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It depends entirely on why you are in the red. 90% of the time, I have no trouble turning around a negative economy, it just takes patience and careful management.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:50:44 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It depends entirely on why you are in the red. 90% of the time, I have no trouble turning around a negative economy, it just takes patience and careful management.

only if the STATE is whats in the red...
if the private sector is in the red you are screwed...

Start any game with the home system set to harshest. You will start with one desert planet. Your private sector would be losing 12k a year. And will be unable to pull out of it unless you get REALLY lucky and find an amazingly good nearby planets to colonize. In this case high pirate activity HELPS because they destroy privately owned mines and ships that are otherwise a drain on the private sector and don't contribute anything.
The private sector should automatically retire ships and bases it controls if it is losing money (that is, overall losing money, if you look at the empire statistics).

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/24/2010 12:51:17 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:53:36 AM

Erik Rutins

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In the beta update, in a harsh system, I agree. But we're still in beta on that and still working on more balance tweaks. Based on 1.0.3 which is the latest official release, I don't think going into the red is a tough thing to recover from by and large.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:56:22 AM

concern

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Erik - can you explain the possible 'why you are in red' scenarios and how you identify correctly which 'in the red' scenario you are in? Perhaps a little tutorial on this may help.

It's pretty easy to take care of your state economy - you have direct control over your expenses though very little direct control over your income. You can reduce your expenses, if needed; you can even slow your colony expansion until the colony revenues catch up.

The real challenge is the private economy over which you exert little or no direct control and it can bankrupt you. Yes you can build bases as carefully as possible, if you choose to micro-manage, which I do not, by the way - so the AI kills me with base and ship over building. How do I check which parts of the private economy are hurting me and what do I do about it?

Don't get me wrong, I know it is possible to play a 1.04 game successfully; that's not the issue. My issue is that if I rely upon the AI constructors, they will hurt me and I have no way to stop this short of not using this feature. If I have to micromanage my constructors, I stop playing DW until this changes.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:58:44 AM

taltamir

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the harsh system is just one example... a player who mismanages his private sector can do the same.
Once you are in that hole there is no coming out of it because it is impossible to retire privately owned ships and bases, and they don't get retired automatically.

I don't expect the beta to be perfect, I understand balance needs to be maintained. But no matter what balance you use this will always be the case for any player who sufficiently mismanages his economy to dig himself into that hole... he needs to simply build a bunch of expensive mines manually (ex: arm them to the teeth)...

Actually, it got worse over time... i was 60k in debt, state was losing 20k a year, private losing 20k a year... and for some reason the damn constructors STILL kept on building mines automatically, despite being in a massive loss... Private ships were not building though, but not scuttling either.

I have done it myself, by building lots of armed to the teeth mines... they bankrupted my private sector, they couldn't be scuttled, and the pirates were too weak to kill them. I had to start a new game because it was impossible for me to undo the damage.
Even if you DON'T arm your mines to the teeth, if you build mines all over the place in a low pirate activity game, then they will bankrupt the private sector. (my armed to the teeth mine only cost twice as much as an unarmed mine to maintain... 3000 vs 1500; which is a pittance compared to the cost of mines at higher tech levels btw; where you have the ultimate reactor, etc).

Personally I am opposed to manually retiring private ships, they are private...
but they should automatically be retired if the private sector is losing money. However, it shouldn't scuttle EVERYTHING and it should prioritize what it scuttles... that is... scuttle mines of non luxury goods first and foremost. Then scuttle a balanced amounts of private ships.
Ideally though, each base will have its own "profitability" rating rather then be a part of the entire "private sector"... each mining base should get money when it ships a product, and lose money at a fixed rate (its maintenance cost). If it is in the red for two game years it goes bankrupt and shuts down (scuttles). As far as I can tell, mines are the real problem in bankrupt private sectors. the rest is all ancillary. The fact is, the entire private sector subsidizes mines as if they are one big commune.

How to do it:
1. create an integer for each mine/resort/other private base called PBaseCash.
2. create an integer for each mine/resort/other private base called PBaseYearProfit
2. Start PBaseCash at 5x its yearly cost in maintenance.
3. Every time a freighter makes a pickup, increment both variables by a set amount per unit of each good that was picked up.
4. Every year deduct maintenance cost for said base from its PBaseCash (ideally every month it would lose 1/12 its yearly maintenance cost)
5. Every year, run a function to add the value of PBaseYearProfit to yearly total for "total base profits" (on the empire details) and then zero it.
Also, the empire screen already tallies the total COST of mining bases. Deducting total base profits from total base costs will show players how much ALL private sector bases earn/cost per year.
6. Every year, run a function to check each bases PBaseCash a yearly basis...
a. if it is -5x its yearly cost in maintenance it is declared bankrupt and scuttles.
b. if it is over 5x its yearly cost in maintenance reduce PBaseCash to 5x its maintenance cost. (aka, excess profit goes to investor, only a certain amount is kept as "operating cash")

Naturally there could be deviations from that model. there is more then one way to program the skinning of a cat as they say :P... But basically, base cost should not be subtracted from colony income, bases should generate their own income based on products shipped, and go bankrupt if they don't ship enough product. (which could happen due to enemy shooting down your freighters, blockades, or simple lack of demand for certain resource meaning it is never picked up from that base... a highly profitable mining base can be made obsolete when a few nearby planets are colonized with an identical resource)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/24/2010 1:23:22 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 1:15:35 AM

concern

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Erik - I understand we are in a beta at the moment, so you should accept our comments as feedback, not criticism. What worries me is how difficult it is to get agreement that what I am experiencing is a problem and not just a wonderful new feature. See my 1.04 AI driving you to bankruptcy thread. Lots of contributors like to defend the game against the points I raise and then suggest that they can make their economy grow in 1.04. Others, thankfully, acknowledge that there is an issue with the 1.04 approach to the economy and propose some helpful suggestions that may deal with the underlying concerns.

To see you suggest:

quote:

It depends entirely on why you are in the red. 90% of the time, I have no trouble turning around a negative economy, it just takes patience and careful management.

concerns me, because it seems to indicate no acknowledgement that the issues we raise are actually problems. I know it is possible to turn around an economy in the red through 'patience and careful management', but those words seem to translate into 'carefully micromanaging your empire without the AI.' If that's the case, the wonderful feature of DW allowing macro level management, ceases to be a feature and is actually a handicap.

Please run a few games and allow your constructors totally free reign to build to their hearts desire. I suspect, though I haven't tried yet, that if I slow down my colonisation down to very slow levels - one at a time and then wait for the revenues, before colonising again - that I might just be able to survive using the AI.

If the issue being raised here is not a problem, please tell me black and white that is the case, but it would be really nice to get some acknowledgement that suggests it may be an issue, but don't worry it's a beta and we're looking into it!

< Message edited by concern -- 4/24/2010 1:20:34 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 1:23:59 AM

taltamir

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quote:

Erik - I understand we are in a beta at the moment, so you should accept our comments as feedback, not criticism. What worries me is how difficult it is to get agreement that what I am experiencing is a problem and not just a wonderful new feature. See my 1.04 AI driving you to bankruptcy thread. Lots of contributors like to defend the game against the points I raise and then suggest that they can make their economy grow in 1.04. Others, thankfully, acknowledge that there is an issue with the 1.04 approach to the economy and propose some helpful suggestions that may deal with the underlying concerns.

Marvelously put... these are meant as constructive feedback. :P

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 1:44:31 AM

Erik Rutins

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You'll have to forgive me if I come across as in any way ignoring you. I'm simply pretty tired and there's a lot more work to do, so I'm a bit less verbose than usual.

We're not entirely happy with how the 1.0.4 Beta 2 economy is working at present. That's why we're working on a Beta 3 (in addition to the fact that we have a few new crashes/bugs to still fix that showed up in 1.0.4). You do need to realize though that there's no blanket answer to whether an economy that's negative can be turned around. There are combinations of race/government/galaxy settings that make it almost impossible to go bankrupt and there are other combinations that make it very hard to make a profit. I was speaking to conditions in 1.0.3 as that's the latest official release and in that version I find that turning a negative economy around, nine times out of ten in the saves I've seen, is pretty easy.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 1:55:44 AM

taltamir

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it might be easy to pull out of it in 1.03, but that is just due to massive income from colonies compensating for poor AI decision in mine building. Private ships and structures simply do not have their own cash flow, instead they draw on a communal cash flow of colony income, and provide its products and services for free. This isn't very "private" at all, it is just enforced AI managed communism... It also causes problems because unprofitably is rampant.
With v1.03 your highly unprofitable private mines and ships are being subsidized by an overly generous income of colonies, but it is still unprofitable and unretirable private economy.

If it is shifted to track profitability on a per item (at least for the major items such as bases... I understand it might be a ram and CPU issue to track it in more detail) and automatically retire unprofitable strutures/ships then it provides a much more sensible and dynamic economy.
At that point you could reduce colony income, and affect balance on a per item basis by altering maintenance costs, or profit per sold unit of product.
the beauty of it, is that it would be a self managing system, with unprofitable ventures failing, and profitable ones flourishing, and you never have to "tweak" the economy in the way you do right now. You are basically tweaking completely unrelated economic issues for an overall effect of a balanced empire budget, which means that any minor change you do to, say, costs of maintenance requires you to redo income from colonies to compensate, because they are not self regulating.
There is also so much you can do with such a system... include auto upgrading of private ships by drawing on their private funds, etc...

A quick fix while working out such a system would be where mining stations should ONLY be built by the AI:
1. on luxury resources (profitable)
2. when you have a shortage of a specific construction resource.
3. For fuel, but smaller amounts.

I totally understand that you are tired. Take your time, really. I mean, you guys are doing amazing job and are very quick and efficient. Thank you very much for doing so.

This is something I think will make the economy self correcting and greatly simply tweaking it in the future. You would no longer need to account for starting conditions and individual playstyle, it will correct itself and the private sector should. Thus balancing is made a lot easier.
It is however a low priority, with a bit of learning you can avoid ever getting there... load an earlier save, etc... Countries HAVE gone bankrupt before so its just another way to lose the game and its not a bad one... But when you have some time this is something you should look at as it will improve the game a lot and make future balancing work easier for you.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/24/2010 2:16:43 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 3:48:38 AM

Fishman

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If you've gone red/red in everything, the game is basically over, because you can't build anything needed to actually get you out of it. This problem needed to have been corrected way before you got to that point, but the game tends not to provide any indications that something is going horribly wrong until you reach this point and it's over. I imagine this happens to the AI as well, as I used to encounter AI empires that had simply become paralyzed and never advanced beyond 3 or 4 colonies while other AI empires had 20+ colonies.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 3:53:26 AM

concern

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At last a straight answer to the original question!

I suspected as much, but haven't had the chance to prove it. I can accept this if it is stated as a design decision; we just learn to avoid it. Otherwise I think we need to be allowed to take some useful remedial action.

< Message edited by concern -- 4/24/2010 3:54:14 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 3:58:13 AM

Fishman

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You mean like a national debt, where you sell some bonds to PRIVATE and later have to pay it back? Of course, this is just delaying the inevitable. If you see red income while you still have reserves, you can save this, but once you have no reserves and deeply red income, it's over.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 4:00:18 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

If you've gone red/red in everything, the game is basically over, because you can't build anything needed to actually get you out of it. This problem needed to have been corrected way before you got to that point, but the game tends not to provide any indications that something is going horribly wrong until you reach this point and it's over. I imagine this happens to the AI as well, as I used to encounter AI empires that had simply become paralyzed and never advanced beyond 3 or 4 colonies while other AI empires had 20+ colonies.

Actually I CONSTANTLY enounter AI ampires that are stuck at 1-5 colonies... not only that. If I initiate dialog with them, they have 0 credits to trade with. aka, they are in the red.

Actually in most my games MOST AI empires are in that situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

You mean like a national debt, where you sell some bonds to PRIVATE and later have to pay it back? Of course, this is just delaying the inevitable. If you see red income while you still have reserves, you can save this, but once you have no reserves and deeply red income, it's over.

You can't spend or borrow yourself out of debt... (well, unless you borrow a small amount and spend it on getting an extremely profitable source of income... such as a very rare luxury resource)
The solution is to cut spending. In this case it means retiring costly ships and bases. however you can NOT retire private ships and bases. Since they have communal income/cost rather then individual profit/costs they do not auto retire non profitable ventures, and the only thing you can do is hope pirates destroy them.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/24/2010 4:04:28 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 4:01:29 AM

Erik Rutins

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I assume this is since 1.0.4 Beta?

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 4:20:14 AM

taltamir

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in regards to this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2447954&mpage=1&key=�

I just did a clean install of 1.03 final. and loaded up my save from 1.03 (started and played only with 1.03)
other then me there are 20 other empires.
4 of them have a positive balance of money (I can tell by initiating a trade proposal and seeing how much money they can offer).

I am going to try giving ALL my tech and galaxy map to those moneyless empire and seeing if any of them grow.

Actually, I just figured out the ULTIMATE attack against an AI...
design super gas miners (regular miners are destroyed when a planet is colonized) that cost 10k or so to maintain, each... and are loaded with weapons and shields and have their own collectors (impossible to destroy).
disable all automation...

build those in a system belonging to an AI empire... then give them all those "disputed" bases.
Since the private sector is one big communist family that uses colony income to pay for bases and ships who provide services and goods for free without having any individual cash flow, their economy will collapse under crushing debt.

So, yea...
1. A single planet empire is getting all my maps and tech.
2. Another single planet empire is gettting all my maps, tech, and tons of money.
3. A huge empire is getting expensive bases from me :P
Lets see how it ends up...

All in 1.03.

Starting Point:

Format:
<Empire Name> (<Number of Planets>): <Cash Balance>
My Empire:
The Protectorate (573): 6,848,668

The following empires have non negative cash balances:
Beta Kapola Empire (29): 63251
Imperial Kiadian Nation (4): 113,276
Tranthillex Coalition (4): 6940
Kurolag Major Kingdom (5): 602384 (I am pretty sure they sold me their racial tech for 6 million in cash, as did many other races, I have all racial techs in such a manner)

The following empires are in debt (I gave them money, then I opened trade and saw how much they can give back... and calculated difference)
Haakonish Realm (1): -4,311
Haakonish Hegemony (13): -18,982
Undos Dominion (2): -9725
Sastea Domain (14): -3996
Clatuueni Coalition (2): -53103
Irgishoe Commonwealth (12): -47539

VERY broke:
Sluken Authority (7): -137,834
Muunos Mandil Junction Territory (4): -162,008
Securan Paradise (30): -192,135
Boskara Collective (22): -172,350
Ikkuro Territory (14): -292,727
Zhar Minor Hegemony (25): -454,725
Imperial Zenox Dominion (5): -499,524
Securan Territory (63): I gave them 2 MILLION (my arm is sore now! you can only add 10k per click!) and they are still in the negatives!
Haakonish Supremacy (140): I have them 700,000 (also made my arm sore) and they are still in negatives.
Haakonish Industries (35): I have them half a million and they are still in negatives.

Ok, I have reloaded the game from before I gave everyone money to figure out their current money amounts... lets try an experiment...

Experiment A:
I am giving haakonish realm my galaxy map, 100,000, and all my tech. And I made a defensive pact with them. actually.
I offered free trade, they agreed. I offered protectorate, they refused. then they offered mutual defense and I agreed.
I also started trading them my super luxury items Korrabian spice and lorros fruit...

Alright, so far so good, they built a bunch of ships, including capital ships, defensive bases, a colony ship,
and are now building a construction ship and a second colony ship...

Then out of the blue I got a notice saying my engineerings invented "Megatron Z4"... apperantly you CAN invent racial tech you just need enough research :P

They build a few colony ships, but couldn't colonize, they always went for the best planets, and were always beaten to the planet.
I suspect the idiots traded the galaxy map I gave them, this giving everyone knowledge of the location of all uncolonized planets.
I went until the graphics crashed (where you get to click continue, get a white display with a red X on either the main screen, mini map, or other portion of the screen.
Saved and ended experiment A...

I should have focused on the ruination experiment anyways.

Experiment B:
Loading back to the same starting point. I will attempt to ruin all 4 nations currently making money.
I will do so by designing super tough gas mining bases that cost a bundle, build it in their area, then give it to them.
This is supposed to emulate many not so expensive bases... I will also leave my empire on auto and see if I myself end up bankrupt or not (currenly I am making 100,000)

I designed the uber wasteful gas miner, built 9 modern construction ships and set each to a different key, and activated trade of korbebbian spice and loros fruit to everyone.

I built a few and traded it to the first empire on my "hit list"... and then the game crashed. It takes too long to load and save and it crashes too often... I am going to abandon this experiment for now. I will try it in a later version when the crashing are resolved.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 4/24/2010 7:38:02 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 4:38:21 AM

Astorax

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Heh. Keep us posted, mate.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 9:02:00 AM

Fishman

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This tactic singlehandedly justifies the need to be able to scrap (and thus reconstruct) mining bases. Giving the AI mining bases that mine nothing of worth but cost buttloads to maintain, and making him thank you for it, is just sadistic and wrong.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 9:49:07 AM

Astorax

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lol Fishman, I thought you would have appreciated that aspect. �

I agree though, I've always felt we should be able to scrap/upgrade existing bases. We have to pay to build them in the first place, why not?

< Message edited by Astorax -- 4/24/2010 9:51:05 AM >

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 12:28:22 PM

Erik Rutins

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Yep, some good info for needed changes here, thanks.

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RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 4:28:50 PM

JosEPhII

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From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
Status: offline

Thank you taltamir! I too want to see more of your eXperiments.

I would also like to see one with all settings on Normal. So we can get a glimpse of how the Standard game at operation.

I started a New game last night where I manage all production. I let the AI Adviser suggest, but I only build when I have to. After 14 years of game time I now have 11 colonies with a Cash balance of 115K and a budget that fluctuates from 3k to 21K.

NOTE: This is a 1.0.4.beta2 game.

My fleet consists of 6 ships, 2 of which I found, for pirate control. I have 2 constructors.

I was stymied at 5 colonies for some time till I colonized a Securian Independent and have since colonized 6 desert planets. I'm currently building 4 colony ships for 2 continental planets and 2 desert.

I have 2 Large space ports, 3 small, and 3 mediums under construction. I will be adding several more to the youngest planets as my budget allows.

Game specs:
Spiral Galaxy 700 stars
Indie Alien Life: scattered
Expansion: Starting
Aggression: Normal
Research: Normal
Space creatures: Normal
Pirates: Few
Empire race: Humans
Galaxy Starting Position: Deep Core
Home system: Normal
Size: Starting
Tech Level: Basic
Gov't: Monarchy

Other Empires
1 Despot, starting, Basic, Normal, Distant
1 Monarchy, starting, Basic, Normal, Distant
1 Feudal, starting, Basic, Normal, Distant
1 Democracy, starting, Basic, Normal, Average
1 Republic, starting, Basic, Normal, Average
Allow Indep to start new empires: No

Victory Conditions:
Economy: 33%
Victory Condition apply after: 25 years (2779.01.01)

This is a Micromanaged game. Current year date is 2768.01.21

JosEPh

< Message edited by JosEPh_II -- 4/24/2010 4:32:42 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 5:20:30 PM

Tomcat

Posts: 131
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

it might be easy to pull out of it in 1.03, but that is just due to massive income from colonies compensating for poor AI decision in mine building. Private ships and structures simply do not have their own cash flow, instead they draw on a communal cash flow of colony income, and provide its products and services for free. This isn't very "private" at all, it is just enforced AI managed communism... It also causes problems because unprofitably is rampant.
With v1.03 your highly unprofitable private mines and ships are being subsidized by an overly generous income of colonies, but it is still unprofitable and unretirable private economy.

I also agree that the economic model does not make sense. I haven't done nearly as much research as taltamir (or some others), but my sense is that:
a) any resources from my colonized planets should be available to me for free, but if I sell surplus to the private sector then I should be compensated at the going market rate;
b) if I build a mining station then the resources (gas, metals, etc.) should be available to me for free but if I sell surplus to the private sector then I should be compensated at the going market rate.

Note that this would potentially give me the ability to develop monopolies. An alternative suggestion is that I receive tax income from the private sector that utilizes my resources or sells in my empire.

I don't understand the interaction between the private sector's economy and the government's economy in this game. I think the entire economic model needs, at the very least, some better explanation.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 26

RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 5:21:01 PM

Fishers of Men

Posts: 329
Joined: 3/27/2010
From: Fishers, IN USA
Status: offline

taltamir,

I did not fully understand how the private sector manged its finances until you explained it in your post. I assumed each constructed item had a individual profit or loss and only profitable construction occurred. I hope you continue with your experiments because they show a lot about the economic design of DW. I believe the private sector should remain private and not allow the player to destroyer their units. But there should also be no automated construction that would drive the private sector into continual financial losses. I manually control my construction ships and my colony placement. I believe this allows the private sector to remain in the black. I am still using patch 1.03 at this time and find things are a little financialy tight at the beginning of a game, but after fifteen years or so, I am rolling in the dough. I believe it is not good to build everything everywhere as fast as you can. This might be a little counter to our nation's cultural thinking, though. We live in a land of MUCH, MANY, and MORE!

I like your concepts of economic design but implimenting this into DW would require a major rewrite of the code. Would this be your estimate, too? Would that disrupt much of Elliot's other design features?

FoM

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Post #: 27

RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 5:30:58 PM

Tomcat

Posts: 131
Joined: 1/29/2003
From: Dallas
Status: offline

While we're at it, let me say that if the game wants to "model" an economy then it needs to provide some of the basic tools. Each planet and mining station that the player owns should have a profit and loss reading. For planets - what is the cost of the troops, bases, etc., maintaining the planet vs what am I getting from the planet in terms of taxes and the value of resources I am consuming from it. Mining bases I build should be mine and should not become private, and I should also know the profit and loss from each station in terms of what it costs to maintain the bases vs. what I am getting for the resources it provides. THe cost of maintaining the empire's fleet is overhead that perhaps can not be amortized across the planets and mining stations I own, but if I know the cost to maintain the fleet, and I know my profit from what I am protecting, then I have some ideas on how to better manage my empire.

(in reply to concern)

Post #: 28

RE: Can you save a red economy? - 4/24/2010 10:02:01 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

something interesting I noticed... you can build a gas mining station on ANY planet type...
so i started building my "Wasteful GMS" (that is the name I chose :P) on rocky planets and give it to them... lets see them mine gas now :P

so... probably a good idea to limit GMS to actual gas planets and regular mining stations to regular planets

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Post #: 29