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How does this stack up to Gal Civ II

 
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How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 8:58:37 PM   
Fallschirmjager


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I am sure this has been asked a lot. I enjoy 4x games and consider Gal Civ II to still be the overall best. I am considering a purchase of Distant Worlds based on positive feedback and busy forums (both good signs). Does the game warrant a purchase and does it mean I can retire Stardocks classic?
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 9:52:46 PM   
HsojVvad

 

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Well I don't consider GCII the best over all, I find MOO and MOOII the best over all for sepearte reasons. I never played GC II much because I didn't like how combat was, so I only played the begining game of exploring and messing with the ship design features.

Basically DW is like a 4X game but done in real time. There are alot things I don't like with it, but there are alot of things I do like with the game. I have been playing the game for more than 4 hours a day. I keep restarting all the time because there is so much to learn. Basically it's all the little things I love about the game. It's not a static game. The game is alive because it's done in real time. You can pause when ever you want so it almost plays like a 4X turn based game. This game is like GC II or MOO but plays like Europa Universallis and Hearts of Iron. So if you like Moo or GC II in the style of HoI or EU, you should like this game then.

There is a very steep learning curve to this game though. Like GC II, the developers are on the board and if anyone needs help, Erik is here to help out. He also takes our inputs and tries to get them into the game, for example the orginal game has no quick save, and we all asked for it, a few days later, they make a patch and it's in the game now. So I say they are quicker out with patches more so than GC II. But like Stardock, they take part of the forums and talk to us and help us out.

I like this game alot. There are a few who don't like it. So tell us what you like in GC II, and what you don't like in other games, and we can then give you better advice about getting this game or not. I say get it, I like it alot. So what do you like and don't like in games?

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 10:17:24 PM   
ASHBERY76


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I would say you have bad taste, so it is hard to advise.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 10:31:32 PM   
Westzilla

 

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Better game and more enjoyable than GalCiv in theory but not nearly polished enough in comparison.


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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 10:42:30 PM   
Krippakrull

 

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It depends on what you like really. I have probably played most of the space 4x that ever came out, and out of those my favorites are MOO 1 and Sword of the Stars with expansions. When it comes to comparisons I think that maybe the Imperium Galactica games come closest due to their realtime nature and some traces of independent trading ships. Distant Worlds is a lot more focused on macro management though, and really have a different feel overall. Just putting it side by side with Gal Civ 2 is like comparing Civilization with Europa Universalis, it's apples and oranges and not really doable. At the moment Galciv is the more polished game for sure though, but IMO Distant Worlds is a diamond in the rough that is probable to become one of my favorites with some additional polish. It's a pity there isn't some kind of demo, in that case I'd just tell you to try it and find out if it's your cup of tea for yourself.

(in reply to Westzilla)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 10:59:10 PM   
mllange

 

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In it's present stage of development, Distant Worlds is like a bowl of prunes. Starts off sweet and tasty but in the end ...

If you pick it up you'll probably enjoy the opening stages of the game, everything works pretty well early on. I'll just leave it at that.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 11:49:00 PM   
HsojVvad

 

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Now that I am back, I am not in a rush to write a post. Someone said DW is suppose to be a Macro game, that is true, but there is too much micro going on that is not fun. Trying to fill up each troop carrier is not fun. I find it tedious, and I am hoping that CF and Matrix will fix it. I don't really like how the tech tree is. I am finally getting use to it, but when discovering a new tech, it just dosn't seem as rewarding getting a new tech like other games. But here is a big BUT. At least they all have different names, non of this crap shields 1 shields 2, lazers 1 lazers 2 etc. I hated when you get a new tech level it is a generic name, so it's great that they have orignal names. I guess this is where the tech tree dosn't seem fullfilling. You don't know the order of wich things are. Yes they are randomly from game to game, but so was the first MOO, but it felf fullfilling though somehow.

But what makes DW a great game is all the little things when added up, make this a great game. I find the graphics great for this game. I don't expect good graphics for a 4X space game, but I find the graphics great when playing. While the graphics in the design screen and tech screem a blah, the main screen when zoomed in really up close are really well done. The planets, moons look awsome to me. I was floored when I first saw them, and I love just watching the moons orbiting the planets while the planets orbit the stars.

I love how when zoomed in up close to a star or starport or what ever, you get the noise of it. If it's a star or black hole, it sounds like a star or black hole, or the clanking of a shipyard at work making ships. I love how we have blinking lights on the ships. When mining, you get the noise and smoke or exhaust from them. As I said before, this makes the game come alive. It's not static or dead, but a living game.

Combat is just basically point and click. No other options or tactics to deal with. It sucks at the begining of the game, when you have only a few ships, but in the mid to end games, when you can have up to 4, 5, or how many battles at once, you don't really miss the lack of combat then. So it's a cach 22. I complained about the lack of combat in the begining of the game, now when I just want to be playing the game, and if there is multiple combats at once or almost after each other, lots of times I don't want to bother with combat, so now I like the simplicity of it.

I like diplomacy. I wish and hope they change it a bit. Just saying -5 for not liking you without giving a better explanation as to why sort of makes it hard to make them like you more. But I find diplomacy much better than most 4X games I ever played. Maybe the best so far. I felt in Gal Civ II diplo suffered a bit, and I find DW alot better. Still not perfect, but I am finding I am having a blast of how the diplo game works.

Ship creation is good. I don't like the layout of the design screen and after reading the AAR on how to do ship construction, I enjoy designing my own ships now. Ship classes don't mean anything, you can make a capital as small as you want, and an escort as big as you want. They are good for the human player to think of the as small big and bigger and biggest ships without worrying about the nitty gritty on how they should really be. So as long as you think it should be this way, then it works great. Some people seem to not like it, but I think they did a good job. No fighters or carriers in the game, but alot of asked for it, so maybe in an expansion pack they might come in.

Now that I know how the spy game works, I love it now. The screen is a bit boring to look at, but I like how it works. If the spy dosn't get caught he or she or it, gets experiance points and makes taskes a bit easier the next time. And you can change their names to what ever you want. In fact you can change the name to almost anything in the game. You can rename your planets you colonize. You can also colonize planets as well. You can make bases where ever you want. On asteroids, planets, moons, stars or even deep space if you are foolish enough to do that.

CodeForce also give as an editor wich can be used while playing the game. You can rename anything in the game by double clicking on it, add or remove stars planets, etc. I hope they give us the option to change the tech tree and tech later on. I can see why if they don't though.

There is so much that can be done in the game, you have explorers who scout, constructors to build bases or repair bases or ships. Spies who can steal tech, (just tech points, not a whole tech per say) Spies who can sabotage constructions, steal maps or operations, insite rebellions or revolts. You can automate everything or nothing. I am more hands on so I don't automate much. There is alot of complaints about how automations works, but CodeForce is doing a great job in changing how this works by changing them in patches. While I hate when a game company patches games, you can see that CodeForce and Matrix listen to what we have to say and make patches to what we like, or what we don't like and have no fun it.

We wanted a quick save, they put it in. We want ships to be able to refule them selves, they put it in. Lots of people have crashes, (thank god I haven't had one yet), they ask you to upload a save game, and they try and fix what they can, no matter what system or computer you have. They are trying to fix what they can, and do it fast. It's been 2 or 3 weeks, and the they are on their 4th patch now fixing or putting in new things what people ask for.

But as I said, it's all the small things they do right, make this a great game. Sadly there is no demo, but if there was a demo, it woudln't do the game justice. They are a small company with a small budget, so I can see why there is no demo.

Some people might say this is an RTS game, but it dosn't really play like an RTS game. This is not really a point and click fest. While yes you have to click and point alot, you don't have to do it in supper speed if you don't want to. You can pause the game when ever you want. You can order and issue orders when paused. I felt like and ass, when I was playing the game for 5 minutes and then I wundered why nothing was happening. I forgot to unpause the game lol.

Like I said before, if you like EU, or HoI played as MOO or GCII, then you should like this game. If you don't like HoI or EU, then most likely you will not like this game. Hope this helps.

(in reply to mllange)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 11:51:35 PM   
Warspite3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I am sure this has been asked a lot. I enjoy 4x games and consider Gal Civ II to still be the overall best. I am considering a purchase of Distant Worlds based on positive feedback and busy forums (both good signs). Does the game warrant a purchase and does it mean I can retire Stardocks classic?


I am a huge GalCiv2 fan, I love it and have spent many hours on it and like Civ4, its always a fun game and will stay that way. This said, I do recommend DW as well. No you can't retire GalCiv2 but I can say you will enjoy DW. They are two different games but both tend to be based on similar 4x genre except DW is realtime. While playing DW, I do miss the more hands on approach I have with GalCiv2 as DW is more a hands off type game but it makes up for it with many options and rts. Now although I say hands off, you can quickly change it to be too much hands on, but for new players I don't recommend it. At first I thought comparing it to the hearts of iron series was silly but in the end, it does remind me somewhat of that but in a space setting and to me thats great! I was playing HoI3 today and it was a kick in the rear end, had a ton of fun with that 1.4 patch they released. So yeah, like others I say buy DW and add it to your space strategy collection. Trust me when I say its VERY original.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/24/2010 11:53:01 PM   
HsojVvad

 

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Forgot to say as well there is a bit of options on how you want to start your galaxy. Want a little or lot of something select it. Want the research speed slow, fast, normal or super slow, select it. There are 20 races to choose from. Sadly no do it yourself races. I guess they waiting for an expansion for that. Victory conditions can be what you want. Most population, most colonies, and 2 others I forget at the moment. You can select from 0-100% of how much needed as well. Also you can set what the earliest you can win as well.

So many options in the game to choose from.

(in reply to HsojVvad)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 12:29:50 AM   
EisenHammer


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I'll keep it short.
I think it's warrant a purchase and I like it alot better than Gal Civ II.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 1:39:44 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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You would like it. I enjoy the game more that Gal Civ2.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I am sure this has been asked a lot. I enjoy 4x games and consider Gal Civ II to still be the overall best. I am considering a purchase of Distant Worlds based on positive feedback and busy forums (both good signs). Does the game warrant a purchase and does it mean I can retire Stardocks classic?



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(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 2:16:36 AM   
lordxorn


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To compare on some points of both great games,

Colony Management
GalCiv- The colony management here is more micro, and more detailed. You pick exactly what your economy will be doing by building the specific buildings, and can specialize planets.

Distant Worlds- Rips out the old way of colony management, and leaves the economy to the civilian side for the most part. It does a good job at this. Your job is to simply find the right luxuries to feed your civilian "culture" and your empire will thrive. It is a great feeling to see the living galaxy as your ships, and other empire civilian ships come and go. Like there are real economic things going on.

Turn Based- Gal Civ is turn based, enough said.

Real Time- Distant Worlds is real time, and can be slowed down to a crawl or even paused as you see fit to manage your empire. at .25 it is like Civ4 MP.

Combat- GalCiv fails here in my opinion, and Distant Worlds is more involved then just the best ship winning. But not much more.

Ship Design- Gal Civ is cool with the custom ship modeling and all the option, I just never found enough cool parts and found myself repeating my design. Maybe my lack of skill with the ship designer.

Distant Worlds is more MOO like where you fit components into so much hull space based on your tech level. DW needs class limits to make this function better, so you don't have people "exploiting" the current system by turning resupply ships into pseudo capital ships.

Diplomacy in my opinion is better in DW, although it has some quirks.

Spygames- I don't remember GalCiv intelligence options, did it have any? lol DW has a decent intelligence part of the game although it needs some rebalancing.

Bottom line if you enjoyed GalCiv you will enjoy DW they are both great games that have their issues, and DW issues can be worked out.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 2:36:44 AM   
DasTactic

 

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For me the jury is still out on this game. I love the idea of what it is supposed to be but I think there is still a fair amount of work to do to get it 'right'. Krippakull was spot on with the analogy of trying to comparing Civ4 to Europa Universalis - they are just too different. Europa Universalis was a game that required a mountain of development tweaks and I think with the activity in the forum there will hopefully be the support to encourage the devs to keep at it and make it a great game.

GalCiv2 with the expansion packs is by far the better game at this stage - but the games are very different and I don't think it is fair to really judge DW fully yet. I too have been looking for a successor to GalCiv. I originally got CalCiv because of the disappointment of MOO3 - I played MOO2 but much preferred Stars! at the time.

I'd say it is worth buying - but just be aware that it is a gem in need of some polishing.

(in reply to lordxorn)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 3:13:42 AM   
Anthropoid


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DW still needs adjustments, and will be a great base for amazing mods. I also prefer the feeling of DW over GC which felt more phoney and cartoonish. The scaling of the galaxy/sector/system/planet is better here. Once DW gets fully adjusted it will be a far better game than Gal Civ2.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 7:27:40 AM   
Fishman

 

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Compared to GalCiv 2, I cannot honestly recommend purchasing DW at this time. GC2 is a complete, functional game that can be played from start to finish in any settings you'd care to start with. DW, well, you can START a game, but your odds of actually being able to complete it are less than inspiring. This is mostly a wait-and-see game.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 8:07:00 AM   
Gertjan

 

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Difference is mainly macro vs micro and turn based vs real time (but scaleable and pauseable).

Actually, in contrast to many on this forum, I prefer no ship design (or that of Galciv2 where you only had to put on some weapons). At the moment, AI automated ship design is not that good in DW, so basically you need to do it yourself.
I'm not so sure about the AI quality in general. I've heard some expert players here saying that it was not too difficult. At least in the previous patch I could always survive (possibly due to the good economy and cautious diplomacy). In Galciv2, the AI is really good and provides you with a big challenge (as long as you don't use any exploits).
Be prepared to deal a lot of time with refuelling ships in DW. It is a hassle, but makes the game more realistic.
I'm not sure if diplomacy is any different between the two games. I would guess that it is still better in Galciv2, but it is more rich in DW. I like the fact that trade is quite important for empire income in this game, whereas in Galciv2 it was mostly important for diplomatic ties.

I hope this helps? Any thoughts already? Did you buy DW?

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 8:51:01 AM   
Sigh

 

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Currently I seriously advise AGAINST buying the game.
That isn't to say that it won't become absolutely great in the future but it is way overpriced right now.

It has great potential but as somebody said it lacks (in my eyes any) polish.

Depends though. If you can see past the polish issues and are willing to spend this much then bu all means try it out.

edit: for the record i also think GalCivII is boring.. So we probably don't have the same taste. But I'd still prefer GalCivII over this (In its current state!)

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/25/2010 8:53:46 AM >

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 9:38:27 AM   
Ranbir


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GC2 feels empty, no soul. Wardell has himself admitted to this when he talks about some of the things they've learnt to do better in Elemental.

DW is full of activity, the galaxy looks and feels like a galaxy. Has a greater variety in 'stuff' that gives it that grand feeling.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 10:20:31 AM   
Gertjan

 

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Sigh, I know that you are very negative about DW, but why don't you like galciv2? What other games do you prefer then?

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 11:43:50 AM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranbir

GC2 feels empty, no soul. Wardell has himself admitted to this when he talks about some of the things they've learnt to do better in Elemental.

DW is full of activity, the galaxy looks and feels like a galaxy. Has a greater variety in 'stuff' that gives it that grand feeling.


This.

I'm not sure how or why some guys feel that they cannot finish their games. Maybe because their machines cannot handle a large complex galaxy?

The Gal Civ we are talking about is the Ultimate incarnation of a couple different expansions and lots of patching. DW just came out.

The AI in GalCiv was a joke: wash, rinse, repeat approach to 4X. I'm still not certain that the AI in DW is that much better, but I see certain hints that it is.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 12:57:36 PM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I'm not sure how or why some guys feel that they cannot finish their games. Maybe because their machines cannot handle a large complex galaxy?
The game runs into hard physical limits inherent in the 32bit architecture, perhaps because of a combination of poor memory management and leaks, when played in large, populated galaxies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

The AI in GalCiv was a joke: wash, rinse, repeat approach to 4X. I'm still not certain that the AI in DW is that much better, but I see certain hints that it is.
The AI in DW isn't really all that great. At least the GalCiv AI recognized when it had bitten off more than it could chew with both hands, and generally started wars with the intent of actually fighting them, even if it did so poorly. The DW AI appears to start wars for no apparent reason with people, even when it has no idea where they actually are.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 1:23:04 PM   
Igard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

Spygames- I don't remember GalCiv intelligence options, did it have any? lol DW has a decent intelligence part of the game although it needs some rebalancing.



GalCiv had a slider for espionage below each race so that you could alter the funds toward spying. For me it was way too easy. DW has a much more involved espionage system, but as you say lordxorn, a bit too powerful at the moment.

Fallschirmjager, my advice is, if you liked the customization and game set-up options of GalCiv, DW takes it that bit further.

If you liked GalCivs presentation and humour, DW does not have as polished a UI and it takes itself a bit more serious. What it does prsent better to the gamer, is a more realistic galaxy with planets orbiting their stars and moons orbiting their planet. It presents us with a living, breathing galaxy.

If you liked GalCivs exploration phase of the game, DW does this much much better IMO. GalCiv doesn't have real anomolies to explore (they just vanish after you discover them). Most important thing though, is searching for resources to help your empire grow. Galciv does not come close to anything as engaging as this. You need to find the dilithium crystals to power your ships, you need to find the Korribian Spice or Refidium Ale your people crave.

If you liked the ship design in GalCiv then you're gonna enjoy it in DW. You can't design a 3D model of the ship. I found this to be very limited anyway in GalCiv. DW allows you to choose from a 2D image which you can mod into the game if you like. Designing your ship feels like your designing a space ship. It's awesome fun, enough said.

It's also important to note, as others have. That the developers still have alot of balancing and improvements to make. Just remember, If everyone said, "Nah, I'm not buying a game until they get everything right!" then the developers would abandon the game. If you buy this game, your helping towards its continued development. I've completed the game 3 times now and despite some issues with bugs and such, I've enjoyed every moment.

(in reply to lordxorn)
Post #: 22
RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 2:25:47 PM   
atlana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

Now that I am back....[snip]


+1

DW does feel more alive than GC2, which makes you get more involved. The options are many and deep going; one feature i liked was, to be able to put EVERYTHING on automatic, and just have MY OWN little cruiser (as a single ship captain) roaming around on my own - how many 4X games can do that ?

I've been around the scifi/space based 4X and RTS gaming scene since the early 80's (Commodore 64 anyone?) and so far DW is IT on the 4X side (still waiting for a DW in HOMEWORLD/CATACLYSM style engine )

on the negative side, it needs a decent rig to run being realtime, especially with huge galaxies (1,500 starsystems) at mid- to end-game.
Negatively is also that it's depending on certain windows components, like having WindowsMediaPlayer installed is a MUST (which i despise), instead of using just the codecs via DirectX API.

It's developed on the .NET Framework (not sure if it's utilizing XNA though), which has it's good sides (easier patching & faster deployment) and bad sides (performance hog, feature limitations)

Bottomline - I saw it on a friends' rig running who got it from a not so legit site, i test-drove it for a few hours on his PC and decided to get DW for myself (digital purchase). I think Elliot (the main guy coding DW) does a good job so far with DW, listens to his clientel (i know what a suckassjob that can be, been there done that ) and deserves credits for trying a niche-market.

cheers
@

< Message edited by atlana -- 4/25/2010 2:43:01 PM >

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 6:23:25 PM   
HsojVvad

 

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I read a few people saying the AI is not that great. I got a question, can anyone name a game that had 1) and excellent AI 2) had a good AI. Also can anyone name wich one had a good AI on release with no patching done what's so ever.

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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 7:40:38 PM   
madpainter

 

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IMO the AI needs tweaking but is actually not bad. Put it this way, I can't think of a game that is really that much better.
The only thing that really bugs me so far is the fact that I can make an empire pay through the nose for a peace deal, 5 minutes later they declare war again as if they think they can win this time.

(in reply to HsojVvad)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 9:04:08 PM   
scotten_usa

 

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I tried GalCivII and personally I found it a little dry.  But everyone likes different things in a game.

(in reply to madpainter)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 9:47:02 PM   
Grotius


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I like both DW and Gal Civ 2, personally. But enjoying Gal Civ 2 doesn't guarantee you'll enjoy DW, because the real-time aspect of DW does alter the feel of the game, even if it is pausable real-time. Part of me is always itching to micromanage more in DW, but another part of me appreciates the game's innovative division between private and public sectors. In the end, games like Gal Civ 2 and Civ 4 are more my kettle of fish, but I certainly am enjoying DW too.

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(in reply to scotten_usa)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/25/2010 9:55:12 PM   
jscott991


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If you like Gal Civ 2 a lot, you are unlikely to like DW.

DW simply is not as polished or simple to control and it requires a great deal more frenetic thinking.

I like GalCiv a little but always found it to be too abstract and the combat and ships are boring.

DW has more potential, but right now it is a fairly sloppy and hard to control game. Still, I'm more likely to be playing it in 6 months than I played GalCiv much after the first weeks.

Also, the game's slow running speed, even on super-high end machines is tedious.

When it takes 3-5 seconds or more to load the construction or ship screen, and you have to drop out of those screens to issue some (or most, in the case of ships) commands only to go back in, you really want to throw the game in the garbage.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 4/25/2010 9:56:12 PM >

(in reply to Grotius)
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RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/26/2010 2:16:35 AM   
Sigh

 

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quote:


Sigh, I know that you are very negative about DW, but why don't you like galciv2? What other games do you prefer then?


GalCiv is too dry in my opinion. I tried multiple times to get into and just failed every time. Lame technology.. Lame combat... Lame "Galaxy"... Ai extremely over hyped.. And on and on.. Its just boring to me despite having a couple of strengths.

It also plays like a civilization game and not like a MOO game.. Thats not necessarily bad but i think we have enough (good even) civ clones

Still at least it works ;)

I like alot of games.


< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/26/2010 7:44:03 AM >

(in reply to Gertjan)
Post #: 29
RE: How does this stack up to Gal Civ II - 4/26/2010 10:03:45 AM   
shanicus

 

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I certainly like the combat more in DW than Gal Civ 2!

Plus, I like the graphics better in this game and the main screen, too. But, to enjoy DW, you certainly need to get rid of the damn stock warning sound (check the mods)!

I would also have to disagree that Gal Civ 2 is the best 4x game (even with all its great expansion packs). I prefer Master of Orion 2, Sins of a Solar Empire (with expansions) and Sword of the Stars (if they would ditch the stupid 3d map).

Gal Civ 2 is fairly similar and more polished in many ways but that does NOT make it a better game. BOTH games have great communities and support.

I would recommend a purchase here.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 30
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