Subjugated Empires...

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Subjugated Empires...

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> Subjugated Empires...

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 5:15:38 PM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline

What are the rules with respect to subjugation? I recently forced peace with a much weaker enemy by offering it subjugation to my empire, which it accepted. I instantly noticed that his military vessels were able to refuel at my planets and starbases. I presume I'm able to do the same at his planetary/base assets. However, I did not notice any obvious economic bonus which I would expect, nor was I able to access any of the subjugated empire's assets or resources. More troubling, a few years after the subjugation, this empire enacted trade sanctions, followed by a declaration of war against me. It was as if it had never been a subjugated empire. What's the point?

Am I missing something or is this a bug that needs to be worked on? Thanks...

< Message edited by Jarhead0331 -- 4/25/2010 5:16:31 PM >

_____________________________

de.ci.sive.ness\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

Post #: 1

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 5:50:23 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

you get tribute. depending how weak though, it might be nothing

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 2

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 5:50:33 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

The subjugated empire pays 10% of their annual state revenue as tribute to the subjugating empire. The subjugating empire can also see all of the subjugated empire�s ships, bases and colonies, allowing the subjugator to keep a close eye on them.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 3

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 6:24:23 PM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline

Ok...what about the trade sanctions and war declaration? Should a subjugated empire be able to do this?

_____________________________

de.ci.sive.ness\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 4

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 6:28:52 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

Ok...what about the trade sanctions and war declaration? Should a subjugated empire be able to do this?

What did it say on the diplomacy screen relations.How did you piss them off?

_____________________________

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 5

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 7:23:30 PM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

Ok...what about the trade sanctions and war declaration? Should a subjugated empire be able to do this?

What did it say on the diplomacy screen relations.How did you piss them off?

I didn't piss them off...they were apparently moved to declare war by the prompting of another empire. That is besides the point though. They are a "subjugated empire"...they shouldn't be declaring war on me in the first place. They shouldn't even be able to wage war...they are subjugated.

_____________________________

de.ci.sive.ness\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 6

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 8:05:07 PM

FerretStyle

Posts: 157
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline

I was subjugated once (I said no, it did it anyway

) and I immediately declared war on them to get rid of it. I also made a nice bit of cash from another empire for doing so.

Subjugated just means they pay you, and I guess you get visibility on their empire. But they can decide to stop being your underlings if they feel like it.

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 7

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 8:25:14 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jarhead0331

Ok...what about the trade sanctions and war declaration? Should a subjugated empire be able to do this?

What did it say on the diplomacy screen relations.How did you piss them off?

I didn't piss them off...they were apparently moved to declare war by the prompting of another empire. That is besides the point though. They are a "subjugated empire"...they shouldn't be declaring war on me in the first place. They shouldn't even be able to wage war...they are subjugated.

It is most likely a bug then from bribes from another empire still factoring in diplomacy and should be posted on the tech forum.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 8

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/25/2010 10:49:31 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

subjugating ALSO makes it a lot less likely for them to declare war on you OR trade sanctions...

sometimes they still would... but generally i have had a lot of races that went from "war every minute" to never declaring war on me again when subjugated.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 9

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 11:49:22 AM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline

Bumped for official comment...

_____________________________

de.ci.sive.ness\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 10

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 6:52:47 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
It is most likely a bug then from bribes from another empire still factoring in diplomacy and should be posted on the tech forum.

i don't think it's a bug, i've had a subjugated declare war on me on their own. that is if they declare war based off another empire's diplomacy they always say so (ie 'another empire made us delcare war on you')

if rep is really bad everyone dow's you including vassals...

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 11

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 7:00:23 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
It is most likely a bug then from bribes from another empire still factoring in diplomacy and should be posted on the tech forum.

i don't think it's a bug, i've had a subjugated declare war on me on their own. that is if they declare war based off another empire's diplomacy they always say so (ie 'another empire made us delcare war on you')

if rep is really bad everyone dow's you including vassals...

Well I think it is bad design.Subjugating empires helps with the end game mop up and should not be bribed by a third party in diplomacy.In fact they should not have any independent diplomacy at all.

_____________________________

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 12

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 7:21:43 PM

Jamoid

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/24/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline

maybe i am missing the point but in my books a subjugated empire should have MORE inherent chance to go to war with you. you beat them into submission then forced them to pay you tribute, so really they should hate you. the only thing stopping them should be your military superiority, but once that's gone i'd say war is the only realistic option.

if your empire was subjugated by another, who for whatever reason lost their military might, would you still pay them tribute?

of course i may have the definition of the word wrong. if it means installing a puppet leader/government then that changes things dramatically, although even in that case their planets should have a far larger chance of rebellion.

< Message edited by Jamoid -- 4/26/2010 7:22:15 PM >

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 13

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 7:25:07 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

that does make sense. in my post about a subjugated declaring war on me, it only came after the rest of the galaxy declared war on me, so maybe that kind of AI reaction is already in..

(in reply to Jamoid)

Post #: 14

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 7:33:22 PM

SilverRocket

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/11/2010
Status: offline

Not to insult anyone but I disagree with the main point of this post. Subjugated empires should be able to declare war and should do so if they think they have a chance of winning.

If you don't allow this to happen then, presumably apart from allowing other empires to liberate subjugated ones (can this even happen at the moment?), then peace treaties are set in stone, which seems unrealistic and would lessen the dynamism of the game.

The main problem with the system as it stands is that you can't subjugate empires enough. You can't for instance require that they reduce the size of their fleet, or ask for outrageous amounts of reparations/tribute (why stop at 10%?).

If you could set out a proper treaty of subjugation then you would avoid the current halfway-house where you are able to impose yourself a little bit, but without removing the long-term threat from the subjugated empire.

Instead you could ask for much more punitive terms, if they refuse then the war continues and (presumably) you continue to wreak havoc on their empire until they come to terms. If they agree then the subjugation treaty would drastically reduce their ability to wage war against you and would also strengthen you commensurately, providing the way for a more permanent peace.

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 15

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/26/2010 11:07:45 PM

Col Zin

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline

I sudjugated an empire once. The entire broo-ha-ha started over a "disputed" mining station--My AI first built the station, then the AI empire showed up and built a station or colony in the same system, so they started declaring this a "disputed territory." disputed my ass.

anyhoo, war was called, I eventually wiped them out--demolished their home planet, at which point they immediately offered subjugation. I responded "sure, whatever," not really knowing what this meant. I soon noticed about 10-20 passenger ships appearing out of nowhere in some massive swarm, assumed it was citizens of the demolished home planet setting off to find a new capital. i was like "Hellz No! you gonna die!" so I sent my fleet after a few of the passenger ships, took them out...then realized they were all heading to my home planet, then settled...

So I guess they show up at your capital and this new population represents the 10% income that you get? Is there any real advantage to having this subjugated population added to your capital planet? I wonder if the hateful opinions of a large minority of subjugated slaves is more detrimental than the benefit of 10% income?

but then they immediately declared war again...they didn't even have a fleet remaining, let alone a functional warship. While I understand why a subjugated empire would, and should declare war, it seems like there should be a time line for the earliest point post-subjugation that they can do this.

I replayed this scenario from an earlier point, before the initial war declaration, and simply gifted the disputed mine to them after they demanded it. Hell, it was useless anyway, and more cost to them! I gifted them a few more times...but they still declared war after nearly the same amount of time as before. They had the "instinctively dislike you" factor in our relationship, but that seems way out of balance, if that is the sole reason that they declared war in the situation where I was very hospitable.

< Message edited by Col Zin -- 4/26/2010 11:15:09 PM >

(in reply to SilverRocket)

Post #: 16

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/27/2010 12:05:41 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

well, getting a new race = new ability

more citizens = more money

them moving to your empire means that if they do break free of subjugation, they have left valuable citizens with you paying you taxes, producing research for you, etc.

subjugation's greatest benefit is that you SEE EVERYTHING that they do... they find a world annihilator? you see it, they find a nice planet? you see it (and likely beat their colonizers there since you are larger and higher tech...

I do agree that there should be ramifications for subjugations... it should be possible to require them to dismantle their military, end all their wars, stop dealing with other empires, and be under your protection / full free trade for the duration...
AND "liberating" them should take the form of making their citizens my citizens by absorbing them planet by planet, not by simply telling them "now you can declare war on me again and i no longer require 10% tribute or access to your view".
But meh, that might be a bit too extreme for the way the game is built... so I am ok with letting it be.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Col Zin)

Post #: 17

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/27/2010 3:24:48 AM

Jarhead0331

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverRocket

Not to insult anyone but I disagree with the main point of this post. Subjugated empires should be able to declare war and should do so if they think they have a chance of winning.

If you don't allow this to happen then, presumably apart from allowing other empires to liberate subjugated ones (can this even happen at the moment?), then peace treaties are set in stone, which seems unrealistic and would lessen the dynamism of the game.

The main problem with the system as it stands is that you can't subjugate empires enough. You can't for instance require that they reduce the size of their fleet, or ask for outrageous amounts of reparations/tribute (why stop at 10%?).

If you could set out a proper treaty of subjugation then you would avoid the current halfway-house where you are able to impose yourself a little bit, but without removing the long-term threat from the subjugated empire.

Instead you could ask for much more punitive terms, if they refuse then the war continues and (presumably) you continue to wreak havoc on their empire until they come to terms. If they agree then the subjugation treaty would drastically reduce their ability to wage war against you and would also strengthen you commensurately, providing the way for a more permanent peace.

tr.v. sub�ju�gat�ed, sub�ju�gat�ing, sub�ju�gates
1. To bring under control; conquer. See Synonyms at defeat.
2. To make subservient; enslave.

You hit the nail on the head...in DW, subjugating an empire provides no indicia of conquest, enslavement or control. Other than the fact there is increased intelligence/surveillance and a percentage of income, there appear to be no other elements to the concept of subjugation in DW. This is major issue. An empire that has been subjugated should be at the mercy of its conqueror...its people should be able to be impressed into military service, its ships and stations should be under the control of the subjugator, for use or dismantlement. It needs to be more fleshed out in order to have relevance within the framework of the game.

_____________________________

de.ci.sive.ness\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

(in reply to SilverRocket)

Post #: 18

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/28/2010 7:22:16 PM

Jamoid

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/24/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline

seems i had the definition wrong afterall, my mistake. i was thinking more of a vassal type scenario.

with that in mind it seems that subjugated empires should be completely under your control (your colour). it should be very hard to do of course and perhaps their planets should be flagged with some sort of status that gives them a decent chance of rebellion (at least for a while).

(in reply to Jarhead0331)

Post #: 19

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/28/2010 7:37:44 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Col Zin
anyhoo, war was called, I eventually wiped them out--demolished their home planet, at which point they immediately offered subjugation. I responded "sure, whatever," not really knowing what this meant. I soon noticed about 10-20 passenger ships appearing out of nowhere in some massive swarm, assumed it was citizens of the demolished home planet setting off to find a new capital. i was like "Hellz No! you gonna die!" so I sent my fleet after a few of the passenger ships, took them out...then realized they were all heading to my home planet, then settled...

but then they immediately declared war again...they didn't even have a fleet remaining, let alone a functional warship. While I understand why a subjugated empire would, and should declare war, it seems like there should be a time line for the earliest point post-subjugation that they can do this.

Had you not slaughtered their civilians in those passenger ships, I'm guessing they would have stayed subjugated for much longer.

Subjugation does make it much less likely that an empire will declare war on you again. If these comments that this is not happening are based on the 1.0.4 beta releases rather than the official 1.0.3 level, the only thing I can think of is that when we adjusted the post-war ongoing animosity, we may have broken something with the subjugation modifiers.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Col Zin)

Post #: 20

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/28/2010 10:07:31 PM

Col Zin

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Col Zin
anyhoo, war was called, I eventually wiped them out--demolished their home planet, at which point they immediately offered subjugation. I responded "sure, whatever," not really knowing what this meant. I soon noticed about 10-20 passenger ships appearing out of nowhere in some massive swarm, assumed it was citizens of the demolished home planet setting off to find a new capital. i was like "Hellz No! you gonna die!" so I sent my fleet after a few of the passenger ships, took them out...then realized they were all heading to my home planet, then settled...

but then they immediately declared war again...they didn't even have a fleet remaining, let alone a functional warship. While I understand why a subjugated empire would, and should declare war, it seems like there should be a time line for the earliest point post-subjugation that they can do this.

Had you not slaughtered their civilians in those passenger ships, I'm guessing they would have stayed subjugated for much longer.

Subjugation does make it much less likely that an empire will declare war on you again. If these comments that this is not happening are based on the 1.0.4 beta releases rather than the official 1.0.3 level, the only thing I can think of is that when we adjusted the post-war ongoing animosity, we may have broken something with the subjugation modifiers.

hmmm, well maybe their citizens should have considered not getting in my way, first! :P

I have yet to try any of the 1.04 betas, so I'm still with 1.03 official release.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 21

RE: Subjugated Empires... - 4/29/2010 11:28:16 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

I actually do find that it is much less likely that they will declare war on me when subjugated... they still might, but it is significantly less likely.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Col Zin)

Post #: 22