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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Opponents Wanted >> Stick a fork in Me...

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Stick a fork in Me... - 7/20/2002 3:28:02 PM

Ironfist

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/22/2002
From: Cincinnati,Ohio.
Status: offline

After ten years of Playing Steel Panthers Im done. What have you guys done to the Axis armor. They are no more than target practice now. Once the most feared units on the field of battle reduced to nothing more than scrap metal. I have played good players to bad ones and you cannot sway me from this opinion. Way to many times I see 75mm's killing Tigers and mobile aa guns ect killin Kingtigers. :mad: What's up with that? after 7.0 came out on line games stopped because noone could save "live" ones. after a year of playing only email 7.1 I see no change. Axis use to have even odds of winning even in the later years if you played very carefully. It is no longer any fun to try and win. every battle is a retreat for the Axis. Historical or not it has become no fun to play. This is Sad:( Once my most favorite games is now done. I thought it could have only gotten better. Guess I was wrong. So to all my opponents. I will not pentalize you. I will finish all outstanding games. Do not email for any new ones. If I can get sp1 ,sp2 or my sp3 to upload and play I may come back. until then Auf Weidersehen !!!!

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23rd SS PzrGdr. Reg. Norge.
7th Kompanie 1st Zug.
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Post #: 1

- 7/20/2002 10:04:39 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

Ive stopped using quality german armor such as the tigers. Instead, hordes of Marders for example do the job as good as any and better. Quantity over quality. :o

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Post #: 2

- 7/22/2002 4:37:45 AM

Simppi

Posts: 3
Joined: 12/9/2000
From: Kalanti, Finland
Status: offline

I've noticed the same thing. Big tanks such as Kingtiger and Jagdtiger getting annihilated by mediocre allied tanks, even to frontal armor on first shot.
Before my break from SPwaw, I played version 5.0, now this 7.xx is whole different, I agree very much to you that germans go only backwards and there's not really point trying to win, maybe to stick a draw and that's really hard too. That's a big shame, there used to be chance to win before, I rarely lost a battle before my break (don't know if it was thanks to german quality or my skills, who knows).. :)

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Post #: 3

I disagree - 7/22/2002 6:15:23 AM

G_X

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline

Having played enough scenarios as Germans in Early, Late, and Middle war eras, I must say, your consideration of Axis armor is wrong.

I have never seen a King Tiger taken down on the first shot by a 75mm. I have seen crews bail because I couldn't reduce supression, but never one destroyed. You have to remember King Tigers and Tigers should never be closer to 10 hexes from their enemies, so they can use their long range advantage. If you fail to do this, this is a problem because of you, not the equipment. I have checked everywhere I could find, and all I have come up with is that 7.1 is the most historically correct figures for all the Equipment.

Perhaps It's only me, but this sounds more to me like you're complaining about the fact that the Axis armor is defeatable now. All I have to tell you is to learn to use it the way it is meant to be used, and you won't have that problem.

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Post #: 4

- 7/22/2002 1:25:56 PM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

One thing that is definitely a problem is the fact that tanks are once again supressed by small arms to the point of panic. The expensive German armor is now completely worthless. The American tanks all get more shots, and have better chances to hit, even after moving. The Tiger sits there and gets nailed. It might shoot back once. If I ever play the Germans again, I'm not buying anything better than a Pz. IV. Everything else is a total waste of points. The supposed long-range advantage is impossible to use in the game unless you're playing in the desert, and doesn't exist anyway, because a shot at 25 hexes will miss, and then an M36 or M18 will shoot you and kill you.
Seth

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Post #: 5

- 7/22/2002 3:15:39 PM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
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I think I use tactics fairly well, and I believe the Germans have gotten a little weaker. I have been lectured to death about the Bazooka(M1 is good M9 is the one I'm refering to), but I think its just too powerful( And when I play the US is use them alot) they should shorten the range or have less shots something, but to settle the issue I like to switch side with my opponent. My tips to players who like the Germans is that I notice many players load up on Jadatiger's ,Jadapanther and Kingtigers. The German's have very good medium Tank destroyers and most player don't use them. I like there motorcycles as well and for the price these little scout cars are alway good to have, load them with a 4 man scout team(the best scout team in the game) and you have a nasty little package, I know I'm rambling but always, always see if you can buy a few things from Italy, what the Germans lack Italy has, I don't want to give away anymore secrets for now:D

Now come on Seth give me a rematch, you US me Germany, and I would like to buy a few toys from Italy if you don't mind

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Post #: 6

- 7/23/2002 12:17:07 AM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

I'll give you a rematch. I had bought some Hetzers as reinforcements, but after you killed 8 Tiger I's, a Sturmtiger and 3 Panthers for the loss of 2-3 Sherman 76's, I saw no point. By the way, these Panthers were Uhus, and fighting in a thunderstorm they should have had a big edge. Only one saw what killed it. Maybe the IR doesn't work. I'll be curious to see the FC rating on those American TD's. It must be something like 25. The kill ratio was ridiculous. Maybe I'm not the best player (Hell, maybe I'm one of the worst.), but this is obscene. The Tiger's armor should allow you to play badly and at least have a chance to get the tank back into cover. None of my tanks were killed at less than 10 hexes, except for a panicked Tiger that was swarmed by Jeeps (which it shot at with a 3-6% chance) and then had an M18 parked next to it.
Seth
P.S. Let's try only firing at tanks with things that can hurt them. This will include my .50cals, because they can cause mobility kills.

(in reply to Ironfist)

Post #: 7

- 7/23/2002 1:06:06 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline

The Panthers were killed at about 10 Hexes with 90mm AT gun mounted in a Jackson, the reason the Panthers didn't see anybody was I was peppering them with machinegun fire on top of the hill. One or two of the Panthers were killed with 76mm APCR rounds its pentration is well over a hunderd and those where at less than 10 hexs with a height advantage as well as side shots. So I don't see the problem. If you read my post I do for the most part agree with.

Now in all fairness the Tigers that were killed at the top of the hill on your first couple of turns to me seemed a little strange, maybe damaged but kills? I have to agree with you on that one.

As far as not shooting at tanks with small arms(I'll throw helmets if the game would let), arty will solve that problem for you, especially mortars

P.S. i LOVE YOU MANNNNNNN!!!!;) ;)

(in reply to Ironfist)

Post #: 8

Not really sure what you mean. - 7/23/2002 1:16:02 AM

Gary Tatro

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline

I have played a number of opponents who play the Germans. When ever I am up against a Tigers, Panthers, Kingtigers and Jagdtigers the only way I can kill them is with infantry assualts or with APRC ammo at close range hitting a side or rear and I do not think I have ever got a kill on frontal armor. But that is just me. I do agree with Viking#2 though on the USA advantage with the Rangers. I myself tend to buy a balanced combined arms force. Especially with my tanks. I try to use stealth and smoke to make supprise attacks overwhelming my opponents in a specific area.
The German tank advantage was there accuracy at longer ranges and the ability to move and shot. Nothing is industructable but put a bunch of Tigers on a hilltop slope and I will not advance towards them.

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Post #: 9

- 7/23/2002 4:01:12 AM

Seth

Posts: 737
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: San Antonio, TX USA
Status: offline

I didn't have too much trouble believing those Panther deaths either. It has decent armor, but only in front. I was very disappointed in the IR. I could have just bought regular Panthers (not that it would have helped). The German armor has no move and shoot capability. The Americans do. A Panther will lose 2-3 shots, my Shermans only lost 1. The Tiger may only lose one, but it generally starts at 2-3. The to-hit at 18 hexes was around 35%. The Germans start much lower, but sometimes will gain more on the second shot than the Shermans seem to. From a standstill, German tanks are very effective within 20 hexes. They still have one or two shots less than the Americans, so they have to at least damage the target on the first shot, or else they may be in trouble if too many units can respond. American infantry seems very tough to me, and the late war Germans are total cowards. Their morale and experience are fictitious. They get tons of supression from return fire, while two or three squads can blaze way at an American one and still receive effective return fire. It generally takes 3 casualties to make the Americans stop shooting back, but only one for most German squads.

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Post #: 10

- 7/23/2002 4:59:24 AM

stevemk1a

Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline

Hi! I just finished two Mar '45 pbem games as Ger vs the US (first a draw and second an overwhelming loss). I used Panthers, Tiger I's, Elefants, and Jagdpanthers. For a while after these games I also thought US was overrated vs Ger armour because my panzers performed miserably and seemed to miss every opfire and then recieve a one-hit/one-kill reply. In retrospect I think my tactics were just poor. I relied too much on the heavy armour and powerful guns of these vehicles and left them too open. With the accuracy (gyro's) and APCR of late war U.S. equipment, this was a big mistake! You can't be too overconfident with the big cats...

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Post #: 11

- 7/23/2002 6:25:53 AM

Krec

Posts: 548
Joined: 3/9/2001
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline

i too notice alittle difference in 7.1 but not alot. i notice the russian tanks seem tougher. i like to play late 42. man i hate losing a tiger to a m10 lend lease. nice shot iron, lol.

the kv1s are tough nuts too crack with that thick armor. my stug seem to be my best bet. also the mauraders are very good too.
i just want to cry when i lose a tiger. the cost just cant be replaced.

overall i think 42 seems pretty darn good. eastern front battles are always a real tug of war. i never play with US. the 01 is just too big of a edge . against a good player , unless you have a 3 to 1 advantage that arty can tear you up, which is what really happened.

i have not tried the H2H , but all i hear is good things about it, so im going to load it soon.

if anybody likes to play late 42 drop me a line, also long turns like 50 is great on a large eastern front map is great fun!!

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Post #: 12

- 7/23/2002 12:30:43 PM

G_X

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline

Bah...late 41 I can take my 30 or so PzIII's into battle and lose only maybe 3 or 4 over a single battle, why, later on, with better tanks, can't you do the same thing?

Seems to me like you're mis-using your equipment.

TigersI/II have very low Scoot'n'Shoot ratings for a reason, they didn't do that, they sat still, on a high ridge usually, and fired, or they moved very slowly, they stayed at LONG range, long enough that any return fire was a never hit type of thing.

I've lost panthers before, I know how that feels, but they did what they were supposed to, against US in 45, I had 5 Panthers, take down about 7 M4's in one turn, the Panthers got slaughtered a turn later by the enemy Shermans on the hill above the Panthers, but my Tigers silenced those shermans on the hill quickly, my Tigers are currently on overwatch on said hill, pounding a group of Jacksons running scared at about 25 hexes now.

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Post #: 13

- 7/23/2002 12:46:08 PM

stevemk1a

Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline

Sometimes height can be a big advantage. In one of my previously mentioned pbem games vs. US, I was one one side of a hill with VH's on top and my enemy was on the other side. What to do? I decided to lay a trap and set up my Panther platoon in overlapping fields of fire on the crest of the hill. WRONG! my wily opponent sent a Chaffee around the flank to recon (killed a Panther from the side too BTW!) then sent his Pershings over the top ... kill .. kill ...kill ... I feel my Panther's angled armour was defeated by the unfavourable angle of the incoming fire! Very painful to watch in replay! :eek:

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Post #: 14

- 7/25/2002 5:12:47 AM

fud

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/6/2002
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My computer locked when I was posting this reply - hope you don't get it twice.

Personally, I find it all just about right. I'm glad that you can take out a careless Tiger/Panther/JS2/whatever - seems more realistic. I find that all the infantry AT weapons are pretty powerful - maybe it's overdone, but I suspect not. I recently found a photo of a Tiger I with a nice round hole in the side turret from a bazooka - it was enough to convince me.

Regarding Tiger tactics, I found this blurb from the memoirs of a former soviet AT gunner, at http://www.iremember.ru/artilleryme.../monyushko2.htm

... "After short but powerful artillery raids the Germans would attack with their armor. Heavy AFVs, Tigers and Ferdinands, ascended hills deep inside the German positions and stopped 1-1.5 kilometers from our own positions. The lighter and more maneuverable Pz.IV's continued to advance together with small numbers of infantry. It made little sense for us to fire at the AFVs deployed in the rear. Even in case of a direct hit the shell couldn't cause serious damage at such range. But German tankers waited until our anti-tank battery was forced to open fire at the tanks advancing in the front. A gun that opened fire, exposed itself, immediately fell victim to a well aimed shot from the stationary heavy AFVs. It must be noted that Tigers had very precise sights and very accurate 88mm guns. This explains the advice that I received about not opening fire until the last moment. When opening fire from a "pistol shot range" you could expect to hit with the first or, in an extreme case, the second shell, and then, even if the gun was destroyed, you could still get an "exchange of figures" disadvantageous to the Germans - a tank for a light gun. But if you exposed your position prematurely the gun most probably would've been lost in vain."

Cool, huh?

fud

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Post #: 15

- 7/25/2002 10:08:22 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline

I'm not refering to the power of the Bazooka, I am refering to the number of shots, and its range. Try this test, place a bazooka in the trees, pound it with machinegun fire, then drive 5 or six units next to it and most of the time it will kill at least half if not all as well as OP fire on all of them, sometimes the kill will be at three hexes away. I have taken out a Tiger at 200 meters with a Bazooka, ask M4, I just think thats to much.

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Post #: 16

- 7/25/2002 11:23:25 AM

stevemk1a

Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline

Bazookas + jeeps = I guess I'll be seeing you behind every bush now!! :eek: P.S. just what does Italy have ....

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Post #: 17

- 7/25/2002 11:38:32 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline

Italy has two very good jeeps the AS-37 and the AS-42 the fist one sports a 47mm gun with a max penetration of 73 can kill a Sherman, or a Panther from the side and a 8mm AA gun. The AS-42( my personal favorite has a 20mm, 13mm, and a 8mm AA guns and can carry 6 men. They also have three man flame squads

These used right can cause allied player, or any other country for that matter, many problems

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Post #: 18

- 7/26/2002 1:07:13 AM

fud

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/6/2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]I'm not refering to the power of the Bazooka, I am refering to the number of shots, and its range. Try this test, place a bazooka in the trees, pound it with machinegun fire, then drive 5 or six units next to it and most of the time it will kill at least half if not all as well as OP fire on all of them, sometimes the kill will be at three hexes away. I have taken out a Tiger at 200 meters with a Bazooka, ask M4, I just think thats to much. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi there,

Well, I don't want to get into a sparring match regarding what's 'right' - to be honest, I'm not sure if anyone knows. I do know that in the game, bazookas, piats, panzerfausts and generally all the infantry AT weapons are pretty fearsome. I tend to adjust my tactics according to how the game plays, whether that is the most realistic thing or not I'll leave up to the grognards at Matrix. Here are the reasons that I don't get bothered by it right now - I'd appreciate any comments you may have:

Regarding the power of the bazooka, you point out that an Italian 47mm at gun can take out a panther or a sherman. Well, shouldn't a 2.36 inch (57mm?) shaped charge from an early bazooka be even more powerful? And shouldn't the charge from the later 3.5 inch bazookas be even more?

And I guess to me, it would make sense that I might be able to blaze away at a bazooka team with machine guns and still find it functioning - I mean, MG's aren't always especially effective in this game, and a bazooka team is small and hard to hit.

Regarding the rate of fire, I was only able to find one web reference - they say that the 2.36" bazooka had a ROF of 10 rounds per minute. Now, maybe that's optimal, but it does make me believe that a good bazooka team could get off several shots per turn. http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/bazooka.htm

They also point out that the effective range was only about 120 yards - this seemed pretty consistently stated among the sites I browsed. The max range was quite a bit more, and I suppose that sometimes it was used at those greater ranges (with concomitant decreases in accuracy). I've always considered the 'ranges' in SPWAW to be a little fuzzy. I mean, if a hex is 50 yards/meters, then a unit that is three hexes away can be considered to be anywhere from 100 to 200 yards away if you think that the units could be positioned on either end of the terrain covered by the hex. (Does that make sense?)

I hope you don't think I'm poking at you - I'm really not!!! (lots of smiley faces, etc.) I've really enjoyed a lot of your posts, and I appreciate this forum immensely. Please let me know if you think I'm too far 'out there'.

(One thing I do find unrealistic in v7.1 is the way that you can drive your vehicles over stone walls and into buildings with only a rare immobilization. I drove a half-track through a city block the other day without a problem. Now, maybe those immobilizations in v7.0 were a pain, but they did make you a lot more careful with how you handled your armor.)

fud

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Post #: 19

- 7/26/2002 2:18:43 AM

Krec

Posts: 548
Joined: 3/9/2001
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline

i finally killed a King Tiger with a bazoka. man was that sweet.now thats cost effective!! it was a side shot and it was the first shot. most of the other times the bazoka team would get one shot then blown to bits by return fire by the beast. much better success against pzivs . also killed a panther at 4 hexes on a first shot straight on. between the bazoka teams/armor infantry the 01 arty the air power and proper use of the US armor the US is very tough to beat against a human. i think a draw is to be considered somewhat of a victory against such a strong balanced attack.:D

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Post #: 20

- 7/26/2002 2:41:59 AM

fud

Posts: 33
Joined: 6/6/2002
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Well, I'm back - maybe to eat a little crow. I just looked at all the various personal AT weapons that are available in SPWAW. While the bazookas are not the most powerful (the german weapons are), they have by far the greatest ranges. The M1 bazooka has a range of 6; the M9 bazooka has a range of 7. (The Panzerschreck has a range of 4.) Perhaps these are a little too much, especially considering how ubiquitous the bazooka is among US squads. This does kinda fit with the max ranges I saw quoted for the bazooka, though.

Now I haven't tested how range affects the 'to hit' probabilities, though I know I generally won't let my squads shoot a bazooka at anything more than 3 hexes away - it's just a waste of ammo. (Actually, I like to wait for a two-hex shot.) I guess if the accuracy is consitantly poor at the higher ranges I'd be less inclined to lobby for a change in the OOB.

Thanks,

fud

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Post #: 21

- 7/26/2002 3:24:19 AM

VikingNo2

Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
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The 47mm is a rifled, vs the Bazooka smooth bored rocket, if there range was cut down to four or even three then I would not have a problem. A op fired the Bazooka will fire more shots than its max, that and the range are my chief complaints
( Sorry Chief). I don't no how op fire is caculated, and if its a bug someone let me know:p

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Post #: 22

Say What you will. - 7/30/2002 1:45:50 AM

Ironfist

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/22/2002
From: Cincinnati,Ohio.
Status: offline

It's not tactics, I've played way too many good opponents. I know when the sheets are pulled over my eyes. Armor being killed with one shot does'nt fly, weather playing as Axis or Allied at 25+ hexs. I have found that playing with Historical values off set to 100% for both sides however has made it possible for the German armor to get a kill or two before dying. This has made it more real for me. I never said I wanted a super armor force. just an even chance to win with the right tactics. Yes this spwaw7.1 is the most historical one yet. Good work. I keep forgetting most want accurate battle. I like the" what if " they had better leadership.
The campaigns and scenerios play fine. I was merely talking about "live" games or email build a battle. So say what you will and most have here. have a Good Day and Battle on......

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Post #: 23

Sorry to see you go.......... - 8/2/2002 11:39:40 AM

Commander Klank

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/15/2000
From: Killleen, Texas
Status: offline

Well Ironfist I hate to see you go. I played you more than a few times and enjoyed the fights we had.

I hope you change you mind someday and come back.

I'll still keep you on ICQ in case you start to jones for an online game :D :D

Good luck and thanks for the games we had togeather....

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Commander Klank

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Post #: 24

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Opponents Wanted >> Stick a fork in Me...

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