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Accurate Machine Guns - 7/17/2002 3:33:48 PM   
JuanKilo

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/17/2002
From: Southwestern Cantina
Status: offline 		Are my machine gunners one eyed?? Half wits? Did they all attend the Ray Charles MG Academy? I noticed this problem with most machine guns, experienced or not, they just shoot like old ladies run. Not to well. I'm curious as to how, and where exactly do I edit them, so they can actually shoot.

For the last month, I've been playing Lost Victories, and keeping pace with latest scenarios that are around. None of these MGs shoot to kill. I don't mean MGs on tanks. I mean Medium MGs, and Heavy MGs. Any tips what attribute and numbers to adjust to?

umm...Matrix dudes, don't get the wrong idea by my lil rant above, been playing SPWaW since version 2. This game is outstanding! One of my top 3 for the past 4 years? LOL

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How to Make your units more Lethal... - 7/17/2002 8:57:15 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		When creating scenarios that I want to be "tough" I have toyed with the experience points of the unit in question....and the range they will open fire at.
The higher the experience points...the better results you will get from a given unit on the batttlefield. As they gain battlefield know-how ( and morale ) they become more deadily...just like real life.
As for the range...knock off a couple hexes on their engagement range. You don't want to bring it down to rifle range of course...but lower it just a bit until they get some more experience under their belts...then you can raise the factors back up.
Another thing to remember is terrain will have an effect on your MG fire too. Clear ground will result in a good spread effect...while grass and woods give the enemy some cover to utilize....so your fire will not be as effective.

Warning:
Now, with this said the only thing you want to be careful about is tinkering with the points too much (especially morale points). Jack them too high and you get a "super-unit" that cuts everything to shreds...and the reality factor suffers.

Hope this helps...perhaps others will have more information.

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Post #: 2
- 7/18/2002 12:38:26 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I rarely se mgs not kill someone, if you set them up right. I have noticed that smaller rounds like 30cal get more kills than say 50cal. Why is that?

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Post #: 3
- 7/18/2002 12:50:44 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I have always heard that the .50, with it's slower,distinctive sound and heavy, cover-ripping rounds was more of a morale intimidator. The .30 actually threw out more lead. Maybe that's factored in somehow. Course you can't take out a HT nearly as well, but we're talking about effects on people, not machines.

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Post #: 4
- 7/18/2002 1:22:06 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It think, I am proabbly wrong, that the US 30 and 50cal fired 600rpm, while the MG42 fired 1200rpm. Or maybe its 300prm to 600prm. All Im sure of is that the US mgs fired half the speed of the MG42.

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"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris


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Post #: 5
- 7/18/2002 1:26:10 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I know that there enough ex-(and current) GI types that can better answer this than me, but I don't think the .50 had as high a ROF as the 30. Supposedly, the ROF on the MG42 was so high that it was hard to distinguish individual reports as they were so close together it almost sounded like someone was tearing a piece of paper rapidly.

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Post #: 6
- 7/18/2002 2:35:07 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		My game experience is that the US .50 cal causes more casualties than the .30 cal. (Certainly the quad .50 does! :eek: ) Go figure...

I think I saw on the History Channel that the sound of the MG42 was so scarry to the troops that the US started to use them in training (or something like that) to condition the soldiers that it wasn't as terrible as it seemed/sounded.

It would be nice to have a real MG42 sound effect in the game. It's an awesome thing!

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Post #: 7
- 7/18/2002 2:40:33 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I think I saw that same special. Hey did you catch the battleline series show on Tiger Assaults (think that was the name, know it was about Tigers.) that was on the night before last. Well night before last in Dallas anyway. It's a must see if you didn't.

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Post #: 8
- 7/18/2002 2:41:18 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		If you save you MG's for targets that are moving, you will notice superb kill results. If the infantry is running and in the open, so much the better.

However, once the target has stopped moving or has received some suppression, you will notice the MG is less effective at scoring casualties. But the suppression counts for keeping the target's head down.

Worse, if the target is in rough ground or worse still is dug in, your weapons will have even less effect.

The best use of MG's IMO is to strip tank riders from their tanks. You will almost always score a casualty if you can hit the tank and the infantry will remain suppressed for some time. This allows your unsuspecting opponent to foolishly advance his unsupported tanks towards your anti-tank defenses. This tactic also works against motorised infantry but the truck usually will not survive being hit by a MG burst.

IMHO the ratings for MG's are good enough.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 9
- 7/19/2002 8:14:28 AM   
Thomas D Curry

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/16/2002
From: Orange County California
Status: offline 		My 2 cents on US .30 cal and .50 cal. What I remember about the WWII era .50 which is different from the current Ma duece is it did have a slow sustained rate of fire I believe it was 450 RPM (that is a guess do not feel like digging for manuals) while the .30 cal had upwards of around 750 RPM and did spray its rounds out. I do not know if they factor spread of rounds if so the Bren gun is going to be terrible as they fired a tight group of rounds but I digress. The only other thing I remember about the .50 is it could punch just about an inch of armour at 800-1,000 yards. And yes I am an ex army type.:D :D

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Post #: 10
- 7/19/2002 2:34:53 PM   
JuanKilo

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/17/2002
From: Southwestern Cantina
Status: offline 		Some good replies, and to those who did I thank you for your input.

Major Destruction, I do use my MG crews as a defensive force. But, my point is, during the computers move, when the MG crews have both weapons loaded, and at a range of 5-6 hexes, they get 1 kill usually, or 2 at best. To me this seems inadequate. Especially when the terrain is open, and the computer doesn't know where the MG crew is.

I also play World War II Online. I'm sure you've all heard of it, and how it has some problems, but I really enjoy it, even on my 56K connection. They've made some great updates in the last 4 months. In there, we have the A13, and the Matilda for British armor. When an Opal with infantry trys to zoom past, the MGs on the A13, and the Matty, mow the truck down, and as long as you can see the infantry, they all die too. Usually this is done from a defensive stance. Moving and firing on target is another ordeal. LOL At this point in the game, we don't have a heavy or medium MG that is playable. We do have fixed MGs, known as artifical intelligence, that is bloody hard to get by.

I have noticed that MG crews in SPWaW, that are veterans in campaigns, have somewhat better kill ratios.

War is Hell, I'll live with it, as I have thus far.

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Post #: 11
- 7/19/2002 8:01:40 PM   
Heide

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2002
From: Brockton, MA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim1954
[B]I know that there enough ex-(and current) GI types that can better answer this than me, but I don't think the .50 had as high a ROF as the 30. Supposedly, the ROF on the MG42 was so high that it was hard to distinguish individual reports as they were so close together it almost sounded like someone was tearing a piece of paper rapidly. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I've fired the MG-42, so I can say that it does sound like a ripping noise, it's quite impressive. :)

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Post #: 12
- 7/19/2002 8:28:04 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Where did you get a chance to do that?

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Post #: 13
Well this is what I do. - 7/19/2002 8:45:38 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		Instead of buying MG's or platoons that come with MG's I try to but just infantry platoons. Then I purchase AAMG's. These have no problems ripping infantry or aircraft or half tracks apart all the way out to 20 hexes. Usually with only one or two shots. It is really quite satisfying to see infantry disapear after one shot.
:D

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Post #: 14
- 7/20/2002 12:38:38 AM   
Heide

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/19/2002
From: Brockton, MA
Status: offline 		The gun club I belong has an annual "Machine Gun Shoot" every May, where FFL dealers bring their selection of wares and you can shoot whatever you like - for a price. :D So when I saw the MG42, I made a beeline for that sucker.

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Post #: 15
- 7/20/2002 12:42:52 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I can certainly think of worse ways to spend a Saturday. Sounds like a hoot.

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Post #: 16
- 7/20/2002 1:39:34 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Gary, I agree with you about the AAMGs. I only recently stumbled upon this when, for some reason the rarity gremlin decided I was not entitled to any .30 cal or .50 cal MGs. So I bought a couple AAMGs and boy do they do the trick. They are a bit slower and have a little less ammo but that's OK. I took out a German AC at 20 hexes with one of those (not to mention the infantry, scouts and MC squads). I think they have higher range finder ratings than the regular MGs (I think).

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Post #: 17
- 7/20/2002 1:58:00 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]Gary, I agree with you about the AAMGs. I only recently stumbled upon this when, for some reason the rarity gremlin decided I was not entitled to any .30 cal or .50 cal MGs. So I bought a couple AAMGs and boy do they do the trick. They are a bit slower and have a little less ammo but that's OK. I took out a German AC at 20 hexes with one of those (not to mention the infantry, scouts and MC squads). I think they have higher range finder ratings than the regular MGs (I think). [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes they do have higher ranger finder rating and usually higher fire control ratings. You should try out the Quad 50 AAmg. Cost like 34 points and does so much more damage than a German SS MMG.

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Post #: 18
- 7/20/2002 2:32:42 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Yeah, I just used the quad .50 for the first time this week in that same PBEM I mentioned before. 9 casualties on the first shot from a range of ~8!!:eek: :eek: I'm going to be scared to death the first time someone pulls one of those out against me.

Those things should be banned by the Geneva Convention for use against anything on the ground. ;)

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Post #: 19
- 7/20/2002 3:57:36 AM   
Thomas D Curry

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/16/2002
From: Orange County California
Status: offline 		Actually .50 cals are outlawed against the use of personnel only against equipment. So I shoot at weapons, steel pots, web gear etc. Of course they were outlawed after either WWII or Korea not sure. Not that it stoppped them from being used in Vietnam

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You can lead a man to knowledge but you can not make him think.
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Post #: 20
- 7/20/2002 4:21:11 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		It must be comforting to know that, in consideration for the law, crooks and gangsters would not use one against a person.:confused:

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 21
- 7/20/2002 9:38:18 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas D Curry
[B]Actually .50 cals are outlawed against the use of personnel only against equipment. So I shoot at weapons, steel pots, web gear etc. Of course they were outlawed after either WWII or Korea not sure. Not that it stoppped them from being used in Vietnam [/B][/QUOTE]

If you are sitting in your tank behind your m2 and you see a man with a rpg about to fire are you are you going to spray him or reach for your side arm?

_____________________________

"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris


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Post #: 22
- 7/20/2002 10:20:38 AM   
Thomas D Curry

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/16/2002
From: Orange County California
Status: offline 		Well since I would be sitting in an Abrams MBT I think I would give the command driver, tracks, infantry as an RPG would just mar the paint job and piss off the crew.

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You can lead a man to knowledge but you can not make him think.
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Post #: 23
- 7/22/2002 7:42:19 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		I always use MG42's in my defensive mission (as long as I'm playing as Germans, of course). In every German campaign I've played, the MG42's have later become such powerful toys that I can almost totally count on them on taking out the enemy infantry. More experienced crews easily score 3-5, even 8 (!) casualties on a single shot.

MG42's rate of fire was 1200 rpm, and the design itself has been slavishly copied. Nowadays, almost every MG in service is more or less a modified MG42.

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Post #: 24
- 7/22/2002 8:39:25 PM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas D Curry
[B]Actually .50 cals are outlawed against the use of personnel only against equipment. So I shoot at weapons, steel pots, web gear etc. Of course they were outlawed after either WWII or Korea not sure. Not that it stoppped them from being used in Vietnam [/B][/QUOTE]

This comes up from time to time and as far as I know nobody has been able to quote from any official military source as to why this would be. Can you help me out Thomas being as how you are (or were) in the Army?

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Post #: 25
- 7/23/2002 4:43:42 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		I didn't think Vietnam was a war, therefore the Geneva convention didn't apply.

Same thing that goes for Cops and SWAT teams using Hollow Point bullets at Criminals, even though you can't do it in war, as far as I know, you can in those cases.

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Post #: 26
- 7/23/2002 4:50:30 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I tried to dig up some info on the Web concerning the Geneva convention and MG's... the only thing I find is mostly with the IV Geneva convention, stating how civilians shall be treated during a conflict. (and, not surprisingly, turned up a buttload of links with Israel-Palestinian subject). Seems you can't use MG's on civilians. :p

Also tried to search for .50 cal in combination with 'prohibit'. That only resulted in a lot of pro-gun NRA-style sites. :rolleyes:

Also tried to see wether it's mentioned in the Army Regulations on Firearms, but couldn't find anything of interest. :( UN.org or army.mil would be the sites to find info like this, though.

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Post #: 27
- 7/23/2002 5:06:00 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		The previous consensus was that this is an urban myth.

It's ok to drop a 155 howitzer round on somebody's head but shooting them with a .50 cal is somehow beyond cruel?

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If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
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Post #: 28
- 7/23/2002 8:37:54 AM   
Thomas D Curry

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/16/2002
From: Orange County California
Status: offline 		Well for whoever asked me about fift cals being outlawed for use against people. I will stated this I am using memories from 20 or more years ago so here is what I remeber. SSG Fuller was telling me how a .50 Cal could take out a BMP or other lightly armed vehicles at ranges of 800 to 1,000 yards. He also told me that it was also against the geneva convention for a .50 Cal to be used against personnel so I will shoot at there web gear rigles etc.
An SFC Davis told me just about the same story with an addition that is also against the geneva convention to use WP against personnel so god help them if they have a jeep. i in my meager spare time will try and do some reserach on wether these quotes are true. Dont hold me to finding them true or False.

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You can lead a man to knowledge but you can not make him think.
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Post #: 29
- 7/23/2002 2:43:06 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Use of .50 against personnel is not prohibited by any treaty. It's urban legend that pops up now and then. Surprisingly many US service members report that they have been said that it is by their training sgts etc. , but there is no international treaty prohibiting it's use.
There is treaty prohibiting the use of exploding/expanding bullets against humans..but it has nothing to do with .50.

Cheers,

M.S.

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Post #: 30
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