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Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 7:32:22 AM

Nibelung44

Posts: 99
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline

Hi,

First post, so before anything: It is a fine piece of a game that Matrix did here!!

Now, on to more serious matters

I found so far 2 derelict fleets in my game... A graveyard of 30 ships or so each time, a third being capital ships with adv techs. This is completely a game breaker shall I say! Just one of these puppies can blast away an AI fleet... when you have repaired a few, you are able to conquer an AI empire by yourself...

So, even if this is a cool feature, this is totally overpowered... That it is guarded by a few Kaltors don't do balance anything...

< Message edited by Nibelung44 -- 4/30/2010 7:33:21 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 10:09:41 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

mmm... how about a beef gate?
that is... put a "drone" guarding it that kills anything that comes near it, but does not leave the area. you need to blow it up.. only once you do can you safely board the other ships...

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Nibelung44)

Post #: 2

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 11:58:50 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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There is a beefgate: A mob of Kaltors. Very mean. Additionally, most of the fleet is inoperable, and requires a lot of constructor time to repair and restore. Also, these things are not that uncommon. Many times I have encountered one only to find that the AI is already looting it!

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 3

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 12:29:47 PM

2guncohen

Posts: 401
Joined: 4/9/2010
From: Belguim
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

There is a beefgate: A mob of Kaltors. Very mean. Additionally, most of the fleet is inoperable, and requires a lot of constructor time to repair and restore. Also, these things are not that uncommon. Many times I have encountered one only to find that the AI is already looting it!

I have the same encounter but in the middle is only one ship or direlict base.
and around 30 of those space - scorpions.

First time i encounter this

Im curious how my 15 ships will handle it.
Maybe i should wait and build upp maybe 50 cheap escorts to soften the path...

I wonder are this encounters purely random generated

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 4

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 1:19:43 PM

Nibelung44

Posts: 99
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

There is a beefgate: A mob of Kaltors. Very mean. Additionally, most of the fleet is inoperable, and requires a lot of constructor time to repair and restore. Also, these things are not that uncommon. Many times I have encountered one only to find that the AI is already looting it!

mob of Kaltors only frighten children

Seriously, each construction ship you send will create your a very powerful ship in a few mn, and it don't even need to have fuel to repair... how about that? overpowered I say.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 5

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 1:53:33 PM

DasTactic

Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

I am currently playing a game where I am repairing the last ship of the derelict fleet. I like what is going on here. Here's what happened...

1. Stumbled across derelicts
2. Destroyed the Kaltors
3. Sent constructor to start repairing. Told it to start on the Capital Ship first.
4. In the meantime I'd swapped and sold Galaxy maps to AI players.
5. Capital Ship was taking too long to repair so switched across to a Frigate.
6. Repaired a couple of Frigates and Destroyers and the Constructor needed to refuel.
7. Arrives back in system and the Capital Ship and a couple of Cruisers are missing. Hmmm.
8. Repair a Cruiser but make it hang around in the system.
9. Bloody AI Constructors start arriving to get at the pickings. Now I know what happened to the Capital Ship when my back was turned.
10. Decide the remaining Cruisers are worth going to war so destroy the AI Constructors.
11. Bad-boy rating goes through the roof and suddenly the rest of the galaxy doesn't like me any more.

Lovin' it. :)

(in reply to Nibelung44)

Post #: 6

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 2:04:19 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

There is a beefgate: A mob of Kaltors. Very mean. Additionally, most of the fleet is inoperable, and requires a lot of constructor time to repair and restore. Also, these things are not that uncommon. Many times I have encountered one only to find that the AI is already looting it!

There isn't always a mob of keltors... sometimes you find an old supership by itself.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 7

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 2:05:49 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Das123

I am currently playing a game where I am repairing the last ship of the derelict fleet. I like what is going on here. Here's what happened...

1. Stumbled across derelicts
2. Destroyed the Kaltors
3. Sent constructor to start repairing. Told it to start on the Capital Ship first.
4. In the meantime I'd swapped and sold Galaxy maps to AI players.
5. Capital Ship was taking too long to repair so switched across to a Frigate.
6. Repaired a couple of Frigates and Destroyers and the Constructor needed to refuel.
7. Arrives back in system and the Capital Ship and a couple of Cruisers are missing. Hmmm.
8. Repair a Cruiser but make it hang around in the system.
9. Bloody AI Constructors start arriving to get at the pickings. Now I know what happened to the Capital Ship when my back was turned.
10. Decide the remaining Cruisers are worth going to war so destroy the AI Constructors.
11. Bad-boy rating goes through the roof and suddenly the rest of the galaxy doesn't like me any more.

Lovin' it. :)

This is why you NEVER give the AI your map...
if you do, it will immediately go for any goodies that you find... mmm, actually I think this is a good way to guess that an AI has deep inserted a spy.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to DasTactic)

Post #: 8

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 4:53:12 PM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline

Derelict fleets are incredibly cool and fun.

You're going to roll the AI with your own designs anyway. This isn't any more gamebreaking than allowing custom ships.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 9

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 6:36:39 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Derelict fleets are incredibly cool and fun.

You're going to roll the AI with your own designs anyway. This isn't any more gamebreaking than allowing custom ships.

you could handicap yourself by turning on AI ship design and, on principle, never designing your own ship.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 10

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 7:04:46 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
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From: Netherlands
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I do that, level playing field still provides for an easy game however.

(in reply to taltamir)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 8:36:27 PM

HsojVvad

Posts: 1036
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If you find a derilict ship and find the game to easy, don't use it. Either keep it as a musem piece ( Battlestar Galatica

) or disband it right away so the AI can't get it, or leave it for the AI. Too bad when you find it, you can't sell the location to the AI empires.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 12

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 8:44:00 PM

DasTactic

Posts: 1083
Joined: 10/10/2005
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I guess the point of this thread is to highlight the enormous boost in firepower you get when you stumble across a Capital Ship in the early-mid game. Your most powerful ship before the discovery may have a firepower rating of 20 and instantly you've got 400+ in one ship. You are given the choice to either scrap the ship for tech or to use the ship yourself.

Could the ship be nerfed based on your weapon tech knowledge? If you take the ships weapon tech and divide that by your current level it would nerf the figures down and would most likely make scrapping the ship more attractive. The full figure could be displayed in brackets. Eg. Firepower: 40 (450).

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 13

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 9:10:14 PM

Astorax

Posts: 188
Joined: 4/11/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

If you find a derilict ship and find the game to easy, don't use it. Either keep it as a musem piece ( Battlestar Galatica ) or disband it right away so the AI can't get it, or leave it for the AI. Too bad when you find it, you can't sell the location to the AI empires.

You can - sell them your Galaxy map! Heh.

(in reply to HsojVvad)

Post #: 14

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 9:44:00 PM

soundhack

Posts: 13
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: san diego
Status: offline

I usually enjoy finding derelict fleets and fixing up the capital ships. Last night however I was more than a little peeved when as soon as my construction ship fixed one of the derelicts it instantly became owned (with corresponding color change) by an AI empire. Granted there was a single ship from the AI empire in the area, but at no point was the ship right on top of the derelict. How did the AI empire claim the fixed up ship when I had spent all the time with my construction ship right on top of it?

(in reply to Astorax)

Post #: 15

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 4/30/2010 10:35:09 PM

JosEPhII

Posts: 173
Joined: 1/17/2010
From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
Status: offline

I like this bit of "Fluff" it adds to the novelty of "Finding" stuff.

If you dismantle the ship you generally only get 1 tech upgrade. Maybe you go from AR3 shields to AR5 etc., I've never had 1 give me the Ultimate level of any tech. Unless of course that ship that gave me the Death Ray (happened once out of 25+ games so far) counts as an Ultimate tech level.

JosEPh

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 12:05:19 AM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Derelict fleets are incredibly cool and fun.

You're going to roll the AI with your own designs anyway. This isn't any more gamebreaking than allowing custom ships.

you could handicap yourself by turning on AI ship design and, on principle, never designing your own ship.

I would do this, except for the torpedo/bombard weapon "bug". Until the AI stops replacing torpedos with bombs, you really can't afford to let all ship designs be auto.

Plus, they don't put enough fuel tanks on ships and they don't put energy collectors on escorts.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 17

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 1:44:25 AM

HsojVvad

Posts: 1036
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I find it they put too many fuel tanks on a ship

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 2:28:16 AM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

I find it they put too many fuel tanks on a ship

Really?

My default exploration and military ships are always having to run back for more fuel.

(in reply to HsojVvad)

Post #: 19

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 4:42:40 AM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: soundhack

I usually enjoy finding derelict fleets and fixing up the capital ships. Last night however I was more than a little peeved when as soon as my construction ship fixed one of the derelicts it instantly became owned (with corresponding color change) by an AI empire. Granted there was a single ship from the AI empire in the area, but at no point was the ship right on top of the derelict. How did the AI empire claim the fixed up ship when I had spent all the time with my construction ship right on top of it?

this has happened to me a few times. it's a bug because the AI was never repairing and for some reason the game just gave it to the AI

all in all though these derelicts are OP by a lot. you can get so much tech/firepower from this it's insane. it's along the lines of getting that ruin that gives you 800 size building capacity and the deathzone ray thing.

the AI does send constructors at least, easily seen, and even your own constructors on auto go to the derelicts. the problem is that the AI will not heavily prioritize repairing the derelicts as a player would. i mean how many here have sent 2 or more constructors to finish the job? or send a military ship to protect the find? cancel orders on other constructors to rush to the site? the AI doesn't do this

(in reply to soundhack)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:08:51 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Astorax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

If you find a derilict ship and find the game to easy, don't use it. Either keep it as a musem piece ( Battlestar Galatica ) or disband it right away so the AI can't get it, or leave it for the AI. Too bad when you find it, you can't sell the location to the AI empires.

You can - sell them your Galaxy map! Heh.

Which results in the AI IMMEDIATELY sending constructors to all derelict ships, colony ships to all the best planets, etc...
Really, giving the AI access to your map is a huge disadvantage and a big no no unless you are trying to handicap yourself...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

I find it they put too many fuel tanks on a ship

there is no such thing as too much fuel.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 7:09:23 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:15:56 AM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
Which results in the AI IMMEDIATELY sending constructors to all derelict ships, colony ships to all the best planets, etc...

i've yet to see the AI immediately reacting to new map data. it's obvious that they do send ships to deal with the new info they get from a map exchange and such, but colonizers/constructors already out in the field stay on their last mission

i've seen AI colony ships parked outside a colony they tried to race too for very long times

(in reply to taltamir)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:17:58 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Das123

4. In the meantime I'd swapped and sold Galaxy maps to AI players.

That was a mistaaaaake.

The Derelict fleet, however, is not a game breaker, simply because the AI very much knows how to handle them! If anything, the AI is quite competent when it comes to handling derelict objects and it is definitely not some advantage that the human has. Most likely the AI finds more of them than you do!

(in reply to DasTactic)

Post #: 23

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:24:38 AM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
The Derelict fleet, however, is not a game breaker, simply because the AI very much knows how to handle them! If anything, the AI is quite competent when it comes to handling derelict objects and it is definitely not some advantage that the human has. Most likely the AI finds more of them than you do!

absolutely not! the AI handles derelicts like it would handle a resource. just because we see some AI constructors in the area doesn't mean the AI is smart about it, it's just that the derelicts have a high priority on the constructor AI list, kind of like tech bases at blackholes, neutron stars etc.

the AI will not divert military ships to protect the find. it will continue building caslon gas mines instead of going to repair derelicts. and on top of it all it will probably divert it's resources in a stupid war over disputed bases because of ice/volcano/ocean colonies instead of grabbing all those free ships.

it's gona get a ship or two, maybe three, but nothing compared to what even a newbie player can accomplish when finding the derelict fleet.

(in reply to Fishman)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:54:50 AM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
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What got me was when I found two locations with partially constructed world destroyers. The AI found them not long after I did and rushed in to start repairing them after I had already started.... 3 constructors piled on top of each other repairing one huge ship.

I didn't get possession of either ship since I chose not to destroy relations with them. Whomever is doing the repair on them should gain possession though. (starts first, does the most?)

My general policy on derelict ships/fleets is to retire them as soon as I get them. If I'm lucky and find one or two really early on, I'll keep them around to take out pirate bases and track down "interesting points" on the map that are far outside the range of my other ships.

(in reply to lostsm)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 8:11:36 AM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
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world destroyers take so long, it's worth it to just let the AI do most of the work while you expand mines, then once the deathstar takes form shoot the AI out and finish the job. you can make immediate peace as well if anyone declares war after you shoot their constructors, it shouldn't cost much to buy peace for a world destroyer (most of the time anyway)

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 26

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 8:34:31 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

What got me was when I found two locations with partially constructed world destroyers. The AI found them not long after I did and rushed in to start repairing them after I had already started.... 3 constructors piled on top of each other repairing one huge ship. I didn't get possession of either ship since I chose not to destroy relations with them. Whomever is doing the repair on them should gain possession though. (starts first, does the most?)

My general policy on derelict ships/fleets is to retire them as soon as I get them. If I'm lucky and find one or two really early on, I'll keep them around to take out pirate bases and track down "interesting points" on the map that are far outside the range of my other ships.

bring a ship with weapons (no pulse area effect weapons though)... pause the game... move the mouse around that area where they are piled up until it tells you the target is the enemy ship and not the world destroy, click and watch it die while leaving the world destroyer intact. I think you can now use ctrl+click to select it more specifically.

just make sure you pause the game, and check the order of the ship you gave (maybe unpause and repause quickly). if it says "attack world annihilator" instead of "attach <name of enemy contructor>" pause, tell it to stop, and try again.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 8:35:09 AM >

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 27

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 8:59:02 AM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

bring a ship with weapons (no pulse area effect weapons though)... pause the game... move the mouse around that area where they are piled up until it tells you the target is the enemy ship and not the world destroy, click and watch it die while leaving the world destroyer intact. I think you can now use ctrl+click to select it more specifically.

just make sure you pause the game, and check the order of the ship you gave (maybe unpause and repause quickly). if it says "attack world annihilator" instead of "attach <name of enemy contructor>" pause, tell it to stop, and try again.

Except that I made the choice not to attack them. I doubt I'll make that choice again though. I'm mostly playing through right now leaving as much as I can on automatic to see how the AI plays... To me, it's a bug that I got there first, did the work, and the AI claims it because their ship happened to move near it right as it came online.

(in reply to taltamir)

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 10:34:39 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

the AI will not divert military ships to protect the find.

Well, if he's not at war, there's no particular reason why he would, unless he's prepared to open fire. Besides, I don't, either, for this very reason: If you're not going to open fire, there's no point in pretending you are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

it will continue building caslon gas mines instead of going to repair derelicts.

Well, you don't want to divert ALL your constructors, thus stalling your economy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

and on top of it all it will probably divert it's resources in a stupid war over disputed bases because of ice/volcano/ocean colonies instead of grabbing all those free ships.

The AI's stupid war behaviors are unrelated to its ability to salvage derelicts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

it's gona get a ship or two, maybe three, but nothing compared to what even a newbie player can accomplish when finding the derelict fleet.

You must not be seeing the same AI that I'm seeing. I've seen no less than 5 constructors I had to shoot down to claim a derelict fleet...in MY space! I can only imagine that the AI reacts more vigourly to things closer to him.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 29

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 11:16:15 AM

Pocus

Posts: 1185
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I too think that derelict fleets are mostly an advantage given to the players, the AI don't react in time. There is a need to a very powerful guardian imho.

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Post #: 30