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Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 4/30/2010 5:18:06 PM

taltamir

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uploaded as taltamir 1.0.4.4 2010-04-30 can't colonize ice planets.rar

I have Ugnari in my empire (I am getting a 3% faster mining bonus from them; and I saw when I conquered a planet with them) But I cannot colonize ice planets.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/1/2010 1:02:17 AM

Chet Guiles

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Somebody told me that was an issue of tech level. I had the same thing. Later I could start colonizing them. I wish we had a better handle on what tech advancements result in what practical results. As it is it's like a crap shoot. The game advances technology, but you can't know for sure what advantage it gives you -- exception being some super weapons, etc.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/1/2010 4:36:21 AM

lostsm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chet Guiles

Somebody told me that was an issue of tech level. I had the same thing. Later I could start colonizing them. I wish we had a better handle on what tech advancements result in what practical results. As it is it's like a crap shoot. The game advances technology, but you can't know for sure what advantage it gives you -- exception being some super weapons, etc.

colonizing ice (or ocean or volcanic) is not tech related, it is dependent on having a race

unless the colony that builds the colony ship lost the icerodent pop majority, the ship should be able to do ice..

(in reply to Chet Guiles)

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/1/2010 6:42:06 AM

taltamir

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I have, literally, all tech in the game with the exception of death ray and path of darkness.

I used the editor to create an independant colony of ugnari (well, first I click securians by accident, then ugnary, so it was a native colony with 100 million of each). conquered it... still no ice... created an indpeendant colony of naxxilians (the t-rex dudes) which are the other race that says it can colonize ice. conquered them.. now I can colonize ice planets.

It seems that, contrary to what their description says, ugnari cannot colonize ice... that or they need to be a pure planet with no aliens at all to make an ice ship.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 8:13:55 AM >

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/1/2010 7:24:18 PM

ASHBERY76

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quote:

Colonization technology allows colonization of Continental planets, and when researched further, also Marshy Swamp and Desert planets. But the only way to colonize Ocean, Ice or Volcanic planets is when they already have an independent alien population.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/2/2010 3:01:17 AM

LordGreen

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The problem is that the planet you have Ugnari on are outnumbered by some other race. It seems the most populous race on the planet controls what type of colonizer is built there.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/2/2010 6:33:05 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordGreen

The problem is that the planet you have Ugnari on are outnumbered by some other race. It seems the most populous race on the planet controls what type of colonizer is built there.

which is then obviously a bug. It should be possible to build a colony ship of a less populous race in a planet.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/2/2010 11:05:01 PM

elliotg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir uploaded as taltamir 1.0.4.4 2010-04-30 can't colonize ice planets.rar

I have Ugnari in my empire (I am getting a 3% faster mining bonus from them; and I saw when I conquered a planet with them) But I cannot colonize ice planets.

Hi taltamir

This is because the Ugnari are not the dominant race on any of your colonies. Building colony ships takes the dominant race at the colony where they are constructed, and that determines which planets the new colony ship can colonize.

If the Ugnari are the dominant race at a colony then you'll be able to build colony ships with them inside, and they'll be able to colonize Ice planets.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 8

RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 8:01:46 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir uploaded as taltamir 1.0.4.4 2010-04-30 can't colonize ice planets.rar

I have Ugnari in my empire (I am getting a 3% faster mining bonus from them; and I saw when I conquered a planet with them) But I cannot colonize ice planets.
Hi taltamir

This is because the Ugnari are not the dominant race on any of your colonies. Building colony ships takes the dominant race at the colony where they are constructed, and that determines which planets the new colony ship can colonize.

If the Ugnari are the dominant race at a colony then you'll be able to build colony ships with them inside, and they'll be able to colonize Ice planets.

Thanks for the explanation. Is there a way to forcible remove non ugnari from a specific planet to make it make ugnari colony ships? why can't they build a colony ship with a non dominant race? I have the ugnari, I have the ice planet... it should be possible to build a ship with ugnari colonists even if they are a minority in the home planet.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 9:49:00 AM

sbach2o

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Thanks for the explanation. Is there a way to forcible remove non ugnari from a specific planet to make it make ugnari colony ships? why can't they build a colony ship with a non dominant race? I have the ugnari, I have the ice planet... it should be possible to build a ship with ugnari colonists even if they are a minority in the home planet.

To my knowledge there is no such way. You might try something indirect though: raise taxes to make the inhabitants as unhappy as you can manage without sending the planet into rebellion.

The reasoning: you probably don't have many other planets with Ugnari on them in your empire but for the other race(s) on the planet in question a lot more. If the colonists are unhappy, there probably won't be a lot of immigration, which would tend to be the unwanted race and make the ratio of those to Ugnari worse. Since the other race is likely more prevalent in your empire, with other colonies hopefully nearby, these colonists should be more likely to emigrate. So there should be a chance that the relative population may shift over time in favor of the Ugnari.

A warning: The above is probably even less practical than it sounds, though. A lot of micromanagement for very slim chances of succeeding and a lot that may go wrong. You might send the colony into rebellion or defection. And if the ratio of populations isn't close (or the reproduction rate is much in disfavor of the Ugnari) it is probably best to forget about such a strategy. I also have never tried it myself, i.e. I don't know how practical it is to control taxes on a single colony while leaving the rest of an empire automated.

It reminds me of Moo3 where you got some pseudo-control over migration through use of the per-colony 'set migration' flag. Having racially pure colonies in Moo3 was a boon as there were some significant growth and max pop penalties per race depending on how good the environment was compared to the preferences of the respective race. It was a small disaster in a game full of big disasters. The worst you can do in a game is offer some very indirect controls to optimize a game aspect and then make using these controls a lot of micro management and an uphill battle against some automatic and overwhelming trends in the game.

A side note: I think that DW races should stay more true to their prefered environments. They should have real preferences. Right now, it looks like after a colony has been established it is a free for all with all races and factors like proximity and emigration pressure overriding any environmental constraints that may exist.

I would also like it if the maximum populations per environmental type were subject to race - without any less adapted minority races having a harmful effect - so volcanic/ice/ocean have less severe restrictions regarding maximum population. These planets should be fewer (than in 1.0.3, I haven't switched to the 1.0.4 betas yet) and better quality to compensate.

(in reply to taltamir)

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:03:10 AM

taltamir

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eh, I just conquer the galaxy, and then when I am the last one standing open the editor and plonk down an independent colony. I just don't think this should be required...

worse, the AI had lost the change to colonize very lucrative ice planets, which it didn't.. those ugnari were conquered by an alien empire early on.... I conquered them very late in the game, until that point the AI should have been the only one capable of colonizing ice planets, but it didn't... If I use tricks such as immigration to force other races out I still have an unfair advantage over the AI, and the whole notion is kinda ridiculous... any planet with a population of a certain race should be able to build a colony ship with that race, even if non majority.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:20:09 AM

sbach2o

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The AI's decisions to colonize seem to be only driven by the behind-the-scenes evaluation of a colony's 'worth', whatever that may be. In versions before 1.0.4 you could get a an idea about how that evaluation turned out by looking at which colonies were shown in Expansion Plannet and which weren't.

And then there was the default sort order in the 'Colonization targets by empire priority' view... Until you changed the sorting in the list. I like to sort by 'Type', and then I don't know how to change the sorting back to empire priority. Could it be there really is no straight-forward way? One of the many interface quirks/omissions/shortfalls.

What seems clear is that the priorization isn't skewed enough in favor of some planet attributes, especially presence of ruins. I think that at least all planets with ruins giving empire-wide bonuses made an appearance pre-1.0.4, but I am not certain about even this. And I don't think they were especially high up the list (not that I am able to tell with certainty, as I often sort by 'Type' while knowing no way back). This would probably explain why the AI never bothered to use the ability to colonize ice/volcanic. Or it never found ruins with empire-wide bonus on such a planet.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:23:11 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

The AI's decisions to colonize seem to be only driven by the behind-the-scenes evaluation of a colony's 'worth', whatever that may be. In versions before 1.0.4 you could get a an idea about how that evaluation turned out by looking at which colonies were shown in Expansion Plannet and which weren't.

And then there was the default sort order in the 'Colonization targets by empire priority' view... Until you changed the sorting in the list. I like to sort by 'Type', and then I don't know how to change the sorting back to empire priority. Could it be there really is no straight-forward way? One of the many interface quirks/omissions/shortfalls.

What seems clear is that the priorization isn't skewed enough in favor of some planet attributes, especially presence of ruins. I think that at least all planets with ruins giving empire-wide bonuses made an appearance pre-1.0.4, but I am not certain about even this. And I don't think they were especially high up the list (not that I am able to tell with certainty, as I often sort by 'Type' while knowing no way back). This would probably explain why the AI never bothered to use the ability to colonize ice/volcanic. Or it never found ruins with empire-wide bonus on such a planet.

huh? I am sorry but that is completely irrelevant to the issue. the AI COULD NOT colonize ice planets (and neither could I actually) because the ugnari were a minority race on all their planets. There was no a single ice planet ever colonized in that game, ever. Because the only race that could colonize those became a minority in the few planets it was in.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:32:45 AM

sbach2o

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

huh? I am sorry but that is completely irrelevant to the issue. the AI COULD NOT colonize ice planets (and neither could I actually) because the ugnari were a minority race on all their planets. There was no a single ice planet ever colonized in that game, ever. Because the only race that could colonize those became a minority in the few planets it was in.

You think the Ugnari were always a minority on all AI planets? I claim that this wasn't the case initially, and only migration made it so!

There was one Ugnari independent that the AI colonized, and it is at least extremely unlikely that the initial Ugnari population was less than that provided by the colonizer. Whenever I see a planet with just 15 mio or so independents, it is a planet that rebelled.

The AI definitely chose not to use the advantage to colonize Ice planets while it was available.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/3/2010 10:37:03 AM >

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:43:46 AM

taltamir

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quote:

The AI definitely chose not to use the advantage to colonize Ice planets while it was available.

Perhaps so, but it lost that capability forever once the population ratio dropped. it should not lose the ability to colonize ice planets due to migration.

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 10:55:27 AM

sbach2o

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

The AI definitely chose not to use the advantage to colonize Ice planets while it was available.
Perhaps so, but it lost that capability forever once the population ratio dropped. it should not lose the ability to colonize ice planets due to migration.

On this we sort of agree.

That only the majority race on a planet decides what the colonizers are populated with is understandable, though, if not exactly something to like. It is just much easier in game implementation.

Right now, I never use Expansion Planner to order construction of colony ships. I think I can do a better job of deciding where to build a colony ship. I queue the construction manually, then use the Planner to assign the colonization target. And I am constantly annoyed over which colonies show up or not (this is fixed in 1.0.4), and how often the planner doesn't show all colony ships which should be able to colonize a given environment type. There are still gaps in the current, simple implementation, and adding a degree of freedom in letting the game choose from all races on a given planet would probably add to the mess. (I am still playing 1.0.3, as mentioned above, this might be among the things that have gotten better?)

Not that this is any excuse that a planet with 15 mio Ugnari (and Ugnari alone) can colonize any Ice planet, while a planet with 1.5 billion which just happen to be in the minority can't.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/3/2010 11:03:09 AM >

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RE: Can't Colonize Ice Planets - 5/3/2010 12:30:47 PM

Rustyallan

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I think there's a root problem here in that volcanic and ice planets native inhabitants are are being overwhelmed by non-natives.

I had a recent game where I could colonize volcanic planets, then not. The thing is, the volcanic planet was now overrun by an aquatic race.

There needs to be a planet preference bias if that is not already there, and I've not seen strong evidence that it is or works. If it is, it should be strengthened. Why are aquatics moving to a burning, frozen, or desert world in the first place when there are many ocean worlds at the same level of development or better!?