RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy

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RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 1:40:24 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
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I agree with both of you. Back is not good...... lets meet in the middle. There were some games back in b1 and two that I got out of the red but then there were some, that no matter what I did I couldn't get out of the red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II

I still don't understand this rationale that if I have a peacetime economy that I have to run in the RED to feel challenged!?? Maybe so on the Highest Difficulty levels but definitely NOT on normal and below.

I still can't build everything I want or even need on Normal settings without watching my bottomline. And this is how it should be!

When I go to War I DO NOT want to be hamstrung because I don't have the capital to build a Modern fleet and/or Defense Bases. But several of you seem to think this is How The Game Should Be. More Normal players will be discouraged By Not having a decent economy than the few of You Uber players who make good money on the highest levels.

Sorry if this is abrupt and abrasive to some of you but Gee Whiz back off a bit! Let the rest of us have a chance to form an opinion and not be railroaded into making the economy Too Hard Again!

JosEPh

I agree with you... I have no idea why people want that, but apparently they do.
A difficulty slider should take care of that...
I agree with erik, we have a good default setting right now...

Erik, if you see that, I did notice that in a sandbox game where I was the only empire left I had 1 gas mining stations only resulting in ridiculous prices (50 for hydrogen). I manually built 30 gas mining stations... a little later they all disappeared. I am not sure if the econ AI scrapped them or if the pirates aggressively hunted them down, but i was at 27 sources of hydrogen at one point and now I am down to zero... also all my construction ships disappeared (I had 12, I retrofitted all of them to latest design, and they all disappeared a little later).

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 31

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 3:19:30 PM

jscott991

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Joined: 4/23/2009
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We already did meet in the middle. B4 is supposed to be the middle ground between b1 and b2 and 1.03.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 32

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 5:21:11 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
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Like I said lets meet in the middle. We must not be there if you guys are still unhappy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

We already did meet in the middle. B4 is supposed to be the middle ground between b1 and b2 and 1.03.

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 33

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 5:25:00 PM

Munchies

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
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I find the economy a little too easy at the start too. To the point I do not get challenged and discouraged to play.

In my recent game playing the Kiadians I had 6 colonies, and of my 4 neighbors (They were not right next to me. I had to explore for a bit to find most of them) one had 5, one had 4, one had 13, and one had 24. I had a bad draw of planets I could colonize.

Yet I had the second best economy out of the group and by far the biggest military. And I never redesigned my ships to be more powerful. Just put an extra fuel tank on the frigs and destroyers. I only built ships that the AI suggested. Found one capital ship of 78 power and one destroyer of 40 power.

I fluctuated between 3000 and 20000 income the entire time. At one point I had 150k in the bank with nothing to spend it on. Didn't need a bigger fleet although the advisor wanted me to build 14 more frigates.

The nearest AI, Haakonian or whatever that reptile is called, had an independent in his home system of the same race. And he NEVER colonized it. He was the smallest of the group but had the second highest military strength.

The AI also does not aggressively defend their colonies either. I had to kill 2 extremely giant Kaltors in a neighbors system that had been eating my freighters for a while. Was eating his space port everytime he tried to build one. So sent my fleet to take them out. Biggest Kaltors I ever saw too!

The AI needs to buy info from pirates such as indies, abandoned ships, etc. If they do that already then they need to begin going after them more quickly.
I no longer buy info from pirates because it just puts me further ahead.
And they need to defend their colonies. If it is a big threat then they need to gather ALL their ships and send them in.

Anyway, it is too easy.
You guys seem to not want a challenge while playing?.. I want to have to fight to win the game, not play a colonizing sim.

Who knows. Maybe the problem is deeper than just the economy. Perhaps the economy is just right and tweaking the AI behavior will balance things out. (more aggressive for example and better ships designs)

P.S. I always play on chaos setting in a 1400 star galaxy. Most everything else on normal.

(in reply to lancer)

Post #: 34

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 5:31:30 PM

jscott991

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Joined: 4/23/2009
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An empire with only 6 colonies SHOULD always be in the black. What could you possibly be spending your money on that would drain you into the red?

And why would the game be more fun if you were even smaller than your AI opponents?

I'm sorry, but you seem to have drawn the perfect game for a challenge. You're small, while the AI is big, and you don't have many choices for colonization. On top of that, you want your economy to be in the tank?

And 3000 to 20000 in income is nothing. Turn on Troop/agent automation and that will dry up immediately.

Making economics more difficult or challenging is NOT going to improve the combat in this game. You will always roll the AI as long as he declines to design effective ships and doesn't build anything big.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/1/2010 5:32:23 PM >

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 35

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 5:39:54 PM

EisenHammer

Posts: 440
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For people who are having a hard time with the economy I suggest setting your home system to excellent at the start of a new game.

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 36

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 6:08:04 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

For people who are�having a hard time with the economy�I suggest setting your home system to excellent at the start of a new game.

and for those having an easy time, set your home system to harsh... that starts you out with a MSP instead of LSP, you are losing 20k in state and the private sector is losing 20k, and your home planet sucks...
You have 50k, and you better spend them wisely.. because if you don't grab some REALLY good planets... if you don't, you will never be able to become profitable.

Even if you do... by the time you do that the AI empires are 2 to 3 times your size.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 37

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 6:55:38 PM

EisenHammer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

For people who are�having a hard time with the economy�I suggest setting your home system to excellent at the start of a new game.

and for those having an easy time, set your home system to harsh... that starts you out with a MSP instead of LSP, you are losing 20k in state and the private sector is losing 20k, and your home planet sucks...
You have 50k, and you better spend them wisely.. because if you don't grab some REALLY good planets... if you don't, you will never be able to become profitable.

Even if you do... by the time you do that the AI empires are 2 to 3 times your size.

True... I guess we already have our economy difficulty slider.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 38

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 7:03:48 PM

Munchies

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

An empire with only 6 colonies SHOULD always be in the black. What could you possibly be spending your money on that would drain you into the red?

And why would the game be more fun if you were even smaller than your AI opponents?

I'm sorry, but you seem to have drawn the perfect game for a challenge. You're small, while the AI is big, and you don't have many choices for colonization. On top of that, you want your economy to be in the tank?

And 3000 to 20000 in income is nothing. Turn on Troop/agent automation and that will dry up immediately.

Making economics more difficult or challenging is NOT going to improve the combat in this game. You will always roll the AI as long as he declines to design effective ships and doesn't build anything big.

Did you even read what I wrote? sigh

I said that economy maybe be just right (ie. perfect) and that the other areas may bring it all together. Just needs a slider?
Also I NEVER said I wanted my economy in the tank!
and being positive 20k with the military I had is NOT balanced (had auto design on). I was more than double the military strength.
You do not know what I had in my empire. I could have had LSP's on all 6 colonies for all you know.
One of my fleets had 12 destroyers and frigates. not to mention the countless other escorts and frigs on patrol.

I said it was too easy for me. Are you calling me a liar?

And I am not small by any means. It was still early in the game. Are you saying I should be gaining one planet every minute of game play? That sir is unbalance and too easy.

By the way, that 24 colony empire is getting wiped now by the small Haakonian empire that had the second highest fleet strength. Which is what should happen if you spend every dime on colony ships and ignore military.

And I could wipe the AI anytime I want. I stopped building military ships because I was already sooo far ahead. and still had awesome economy FOR MY SIZE AND UPKEEP.

No matter how you try to put it or what you say. with my ship upkeep and all other things going on (private sector was making 200k) it is too easy for me.

And the 2 big AI opponents were able to colonize the Ice/volcanic worlds so of course they should be bigger than me.
Even though they have crap for defense and are being crushed now.

You keep acting like you should ALWAYS be on the top and be able to outrace the AI with ease. Where is the challenge?
Until someone invents a computer AI for gaming where the AI can learn and think just like a human, then there will have to be limitations for the human for it to be a challenge.

I am not good at explaining things as others are, so I will leave it at this.
I know there are many others that think like me and don't want a cake walk when they play. (BUT we don't want to ALWAYS struggle up hill either!)
We want to have to think and take chances like.. should I skimp on military and keep right on colonizing? Or be ready for a surprise attack?

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 39

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 7:07:26 PM

Munchies

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Joined: 4/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

For people who are�having a hard time with the economy�I suggest setting your home system to excellent at the start of a new game.

and for those having an easy time, set your home system to harsh... that starts you out with a MSP instead of LSP, you are losing 20k in state and the private sector is losing 20k, and your home planet sucks...
You have 50k, and you better spend them wisely.. because if you don't grab some REALLY good planets... if you don't, you will never be able to become profitable.

Even if you do... by the time you do that the AI empires are 2 to 3 times your size.

True... I guess we already have our economy difficulty slider.

I started at normal homeworld and had a MSP that I later upgraded.
I will try the poor homeworld. I admit that I never tried it. Was trying everything on normal to get a baseline diff.

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 40

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 8:51:06 PM

JosEPhII

Posts: 173
Joined: 1/17/2010
From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
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quote:

I am not good at explaining things as others are, so I will leave it at this.
I know there are many others that think like me and don't want a cake walk when they play. (BUT we don't want to ALWAYS struggle up hill either!)
We want to have to think and take chances like.. should I skimp on military and keep right on colonizing? Or be ready for a surprise attack?

I agree with this and it's what I expect to see and play during the game. I don't want a cakewalk either even on Normal (all settings across the board on Normal or its equivalent). But what I do Object to and will continue to object to is those that come and say too easy when they are playing on easy/semi easy levels. (Oh yeah I forgot, duh, my HW was eXcellent but the economy was still too easy, etc.( a generalization to previous posts not poster))

If you can say/show that you play on the Hardest levels across the board, and you are Fighting Wars (not a Peace time economy), and the Economy is Still too easy, and then give some details on How you made it so easy, then I'll shut up and you can then bug the snot out of Elliotg and Erik on making it more difficult. Until then I say moderation and eXplanation before you put up a generalized post saying,"The economy is too easy".

JosEPh

I believe we are running the developer ragged

< Message edited by JosEPh_II -- 5/1/2010 8:56:55 PM >

_____________________________

"old and slow.....Watch out!"

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 41

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 8:52:27 PM

JosEPhII

Posts: 173
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From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
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Oops! thought I hit edit not quote. Sorry for the dbl post

< Message edited by JosEPh_II -- 5/1/2010 8:55:17 PM >

_____________________________

"old and slow.....Watch out!"

(in reply to JosEPhII)

Post #: 42

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 9:57:17 PM

EisenHammer

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^^ What about the economy is too hard, that a generalization without giving details.
And has anyone got conquer by the AI yet?

BTW I was playing on normal.

(in reply to JosEPhII)

Post #: 43

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 10:34:08 PM

jscott991

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Joined: 4/23/2009
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I see where this is going.

This game is going to be hijacked by those that want an extreme challenge and eventually we will have a rampantly cheating AI (hello every other Matrix game) and a huge corruption value that players can't effect or do anything about.

I only hope the devs resist this push. But if they do, it will be the first time I've seen it happen in a Matrix-released game.

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 44

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/1/2010 11:38:29 PM

Storper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I see where this is going.

This game is going to be hijacked by those that want an extreme challenge and eventually we will have a rampantly cheating AI (hello every other Matrix game) and a huge corruption value that players can't effect or do anything about.

I only hope the devs resist this push. But if they do, it will be the first time I've seen it happen in a Matrix-released game.

I got a similar vibe in the thread were I was wondering where all the useful planets went. I felt like the convo was like this;

Me: Well I dont think discovering 31 systems without anything being colonizable makes for a very fun game
Heckler 1: Shut up fool
WitP player: Let me tell you when I go island hopping......
Heckler 2: No you are wrong cannot be like that.
Micro enthusiast: Well if I dont spend 3 hours on every month I feel no challenge so in fact there should only be 1 planet in the entire galaxy that can be colonized.
Player still not playing 1.04: What, when, who?
Player on a 386: Well my system cannot take anymore captain, I�m pushing her as far as I can.
Me: WTF?????

< Message edited by Storper -- 5/1/2010 11:41:05 PM >

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 45

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 1:23:21 AM

Munchies

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I see where this is going.

This game is going to be hijacked by those that want an extremely easy game and eventually we will have a crippled AI due to me just having to worry about colonizing and nothing else.

I only hope the devs resist this push.
(Sorry couldn't resist hehe)

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. If it continues to be this easy I just won't play it. I don't lose anything lol. The Devs will do what they will do after ready the feedback from ALL that wish to post.
If they think it is too hard, then it will be made easier. enough said.

LOL Storper.

P.S. I am not just talking about the economy like you have zeroed in on. As I have said before, the economy may be spot on, but we won't know until other things in the game get balanced/fixed.

(in reply to Storper)

Post #: 46

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 3:37:14 AM

Jaimoe_MatrixForum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I was able to get out of the red a few times, it's far from being DOOMED or DEATH.

If you have CASH RESERVES, you are fine. If the red occurs when you have NO cash reserves, you are SCREWED. Without money, you can't do anything, so at that point you are reduced to an impotent observer of a chain of events you are now powerless to affect.

You can scrap part of your fleet(sometimes including unneeded space ports), scrap most of your troops on your home planet, keep taxes on new colonies down to zero, and wait for your population to grow. I've gotten out of the red(with negative reserves as well) a few times this way.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 47

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 5:38:12 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaimoe

You can scrap part of your fleet(sometimes including unneeded space ports), scrap most of your troops on your home planet, keep taxes on new colonies down to zero, and wait for your population to grow. I've gotten out of the red(with negative reserves as well) a few times this way.

Well, I suppose relieving yourself of the burden of owning a home planet would probably help, since you no longer have to pay for its upkeep. But deciding which of my 3 ships to scrap is excessively Sophie's Choice.

(in reply to Jaimoe_MatrixForum)

Post #: 48

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 6:38:15 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaimoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I was able to get out of the red a few times, it's far from being DOOMED or DEATH.

If you have CASH RESERVES, you are fine. If the red occurs when you have NO cash reserves, you are SCREWED. Without money, you can't do anything, so at that point you are reduced to an impotent observer of a chain of events you are now powerless to affect.

You can scrap part of your fleet(sometimes including unneeded space ports), scrap most of your troops on your home planet, keep taxes on new colonies down to zero, and wait for your population to grow. I've gotten out of the red(with negative reserves as well) a few times this way.

This requires that your population has sufficient room to grow.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Jaimoe_MatrixForum)

Post #: 49

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 7:08:42 AM

DasTactic

Posts: 1083
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The more I play version 1.0.4.4 the more I think the economy is working well. When starting with challenging settings it doesn't cripple you yet playing on the easier settings it doesn't seem to race away.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 50

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 7:26:01 AM

Fishman

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You know, the real question is not whether the economy is racing away, but whether the AI is keeping up. If you are millions in the black...and so is your opponent, then everything is fine.

(in reply to DasTactic)

Post #: 51

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 12:47:57 PM

shanicus

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I agree with Fishman! I generally assume that AI players are making money too. At least if they have largish empires...

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 52

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 1:00:26 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

You know, the real question is not whether the economy is racing away, but whether the AI is keeping up. If you are millions in the black...and so is your opponent, then everything is fine.

One of the biggest problem before was bankrupt AI empires... I don't think this is a problem anymore.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 53

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 2:57:54 PM

alexalexuk

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i think the real problem here comes from the lack of AI's ability to wage war.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 54

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 9:27:08 PM

JosEPhII

Posts: 173
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From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

^^ What about the economy is too hard, that a generalization without giving details.
And�has anyone got conquer by the AI yet?

BTW I was playing on normal.

The course of this thread's discussion has been "too easy", but both poles generalizations should be avoided. And I personally have repeated that I play all new Patches on Normal (Across the Board) settings on 700 star galaxies.

And Yes I have been conquer by the AI, the Haarkonians. I had 5 or 6 colonies (human republic) and they had over 50. My lunch got handed to me. I was whittled down to 1 colony (and not my HW either) and then subjugated. All the while they kept eXpanding while I sat there year after year going nowhere. So I abandoned that game and so would've you.

quote:

i think the real problem here comes from the lack of AI's ability to wage war.

We must be playing different games then. What is you favorite Aggression setting?

I find it hard to consistently wage war as the Humans without suffering terrible revolutions that debilitate my empire. Maybe the Insect races don't suffer from this but the Humanoids do. And god forbid that I should have some extra races/species in my empire when I do go to war. You are assured of empire splits if you play Human or Securian and to a slightly lesser degree Kiadian. But this is a different topic than the topic of this thread. So I will stop.

JosEPh

_____________________________

"old and slow.....Watch out!"

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 55

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/2/2010 10:55:34 PM

EisenHammer

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II
And Yes I have been conquer by the AI, the Haarkonians. I had 5 or 6 colonies (human republic) and they had over 50. My lunch got handed to me. I was whittled down to 1 colony (and not my HW either) and then subjugated. All the while they kept eXpanding while I sat there year after year going nowhere. So I abandoned that game and so would've you.

Well that's good. I'm going to put myself in a disadvantage and see if they wipe me out. I like an AI thats goes for the kill.

(in reply to JosEPhII)

Post #: 56

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/3/2010 7:07:10 AM

Roghain

Posts: 30
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From: Ede, Netherlands
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I feel like the economy is a lot less bloated than before. I however still am at a complete loss as to how the numbers work:

I see, on the main screen, that I am in the red (sometimes real bad, like -60k) but my funds still increase. Vice versa too - then I am in the black (well, white really) my cash reserves decrease sometimes.

How can this be? Are there hidden cash flows not rtaken into account in the number that shows cashFLOW (not reserve - that just is my piggy bank I assume). What doi the numbers mean exactly, and how can it be that being in the red doesn't automaticvally means my reserves are diminishing?

(in reply to lancer)

Post #: 57

RE: 1.0.4.4 I like the new economy - 5/3/2010 3:51:31 PM

Munchies

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I learned not to look at that number in the top right of my screen.
Click on the economy screen (your flag in the middle top of the screen) to get an accurate view of income.

It said I was +12k and kept losing money, but the other screen had me at -3k which was accurate.

(in reply to Roghain)

Post #: 58