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my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 12:18:08 AM

alexalexuk

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playing 1.0.4.b4

im noticing that the AI just doesnt stack up to my custom ship designs, and clearly isnt adapting to the situation what so ever, im just noticing a fairly standard repetition of ship types and classes across all AI races, none of the AI races are adapting to my fast ships with torpedoes.

anyone else having the issue here with the AI races doing nothing out of the ordinary with ship designs and not adapting to a foe's shiptypes?

Post #: 1

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 1:38:32 AM

Fishman

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That's basically true of all such games, but yes. An easy improvement for the AI is to teach him to produce "replica" versions of ships that kick his ass, imitating your designs using his available technolergy, similar to how pirates do it, only the AI must actually pay to build his units, and has to use the technolergy he has available, rather than having exact, free, carbon copies.

And pirates should stop doing that.

(in reply to alexalexuk)

Post #: 2

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 4:30:16 AM

lostsm

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if we had the ability to edit the ship design templates it would at least ensure the AI builds efficient ships. as it is right now, it's number crunching for the player to configure the best layout, and i really doubt there's routines for the AI to do this, hence the design templates

also, limits per ship class (escorts, frigs, etc) would help the overall situation as well

really, as far as i can tell, the only way the AI beats you is if they have an overwhelming advantage and swarm you.. provided your custom startbase design doesnt wipe them out first

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 3

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 6:55:45 AM

Fishman

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Isn't that how AIs beat you in EVERY game? In any game of this sort I have ever played, no AI design has ever beaten a human design of equivalent or greater tech level in single combat. You'd think they'd be better at it: The art of AI ship design was mastered nearly 30 years ago. But since game designers never learn from the successes and failures of the past, the AI designs are still functionally retarded. DW's ship design AI is no Eurisko.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 4

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:02:27 AM

taltamir

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there are a few critical issues here though:
1. the AI favors lasers, lasers suck. It is all about range which means torpedoes are king.
2. the AI favors the highest damage torpedoes (shaktur firestorm, a racial tech everyone manages to get), those suck, you need more range.
3. the AI favors the highest ranked shields, the megatron Z4 racial shield tech (which everyone manages to get), they suck... they reduce the shields from 480 a pop to 140 a pop, but increase recharge from 1.3 to 1.5 each. Also they require gold which is rare.
4. the AI doesn't use ENOUGH weapons and shields. it will designs a massive expensive 20,000$ ship with only a tiny fraction of that amount being shields, armor, and weapons.

However, I am sure they will get around to re-balancing those issues. for now you can handicap yourself by forcing yourself to use auto designed ships vs the AI auto designed ships.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 5

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:03:04 AM

lordxorn

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GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

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Post #: 6

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:06:45 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

yes, so?
And if you are referring to tech.. I asked them to re-trigger auto design as soon as a new tech is acquired (via research, ruins, or tech trade) during 1.04b2, they said its a good idea and they will, and beginning with 1.0.4.4 it actually does. The AI will redesign your ships automatically immediately as you get a new tech so you never have to use the upgrade button again (except on a custom design you made) if you have the ship design automation on.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to lordxorn)

Post #: 7

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:14:26 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

there are a few critical issues here though:
1. the AI favors lasers, lasers suck. It is all about range which means torpedoes are king.

Well, it's about range and SPEED. As long as you have superior speed AND superior range, you will win. Period. However, if you can CATCH your opponent, the fact that torpedoes exhibit rather anemic refire rates can quickly be compensated for: Lazors have refire rates almost twice as fast, and are less prone to "wasteage" when many torpedoes are fired at a single target that is instantly destroyed, wasting all of the torpedoes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

2. the AI favors the highest damage torpedoes (shaktur firestorm, a racial tech everyone manages to get), those suck, you need more range.

The racial advantage isn't that the Shaktur is unique, the racial advantage is that they get it NOW. The Shaktur IS the most damaging weapon torp in the game and simultaneously doubles as a bombardment weapon, but, as you said, the range is wretched.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

3. the AI favors the highest ranked shields, the megatron Z4 racial shield tech (which everyone manages to get), they suck... they reduce the shields from 480 a pop to 140 a pop, but increase recharge from 1.3 to 1.5 each. Also they require gold which is rare.

Gold is not all that common of a resource, but as far as I can tell, it's not all that DEMANDED either, as most of the stuff I mine just piles up and is shiny. But yeah, the problem is that the megatron is positioned on the end of the tech tree. If it were positioned more reasonably on the tech tree, so that it was not the final item on the tech tree, this would not be a problem.

On the other hand, sometimes the regeneration is all that really matters. If you're fighting in a situation where you can't even overcome the regeneration on the shield, it doesn't matter how many points the shield is rated for because you are screwed. When you stick a thousand shields on something, having 1500 regen is a significant difference over 1300 regen, and the absolute number of shields ceases to matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

4. the AI doesn't use ENOUGH weapons and shields. it will designs a massive expensive 20,000$ ship with only a tiny fraction of that amount being shields, armor, and weapons.

It does? I have never even *SEEN* a $20000 ship. I do not believe it to be physically possible to MAKE such a thing, given that a 1500-size Behemoth Capital Battleship only costs $18K, and the AI never makes anything that large! Given that Behemoths are constructed as masturbatory exercises and not as serious, economical warships, I find it hard to imagine what the AI could build that is that expensive...and only a tiny fraction of that amount is shields, armor, and weapons...WHAT IS THE REST OF IT? Are you saying that the AI has built a ship that is primarily engines? If anything, engines are the thing the AI does not build enough of, which is why he is eaten alive by torpedoes. In most AI designs, I find that there is often a superabundance of weapons, and never enough engines. His shield ratios are tolerable, if not generous, but there are always WAY too many weapons, not enough reactors, and nowhere NEAR enough engines. All the weapons in the world don't do you any good at all if you cannot even manage to fire them, and cannot get in range TO fire them.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 8

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:28:20 AM

lordxorn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

GalCiv 2 AI designed the latest ships.

yes, so?
And if you are referring to tech.. I asked them to re-trigger auto design as soon as a new tech is acquired (via research, ruins, or tech trade) during 1.04b2, they said its a good idea and they will, and beginning with 1.0.4.4 it actually does. The AI will redesign your ships automatically immediately as you get a new tech so you never have to use the upgrade button again (except on a custom design you made) if you have the ship design automation on.

I was originally referring to Fishman's post, and also that is good that the AI will custom design your ships for you with the latest tech events, why can't this be applied by all the AIs? To address the OP's original question.

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(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 9

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:35:43 AM

taltamir

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quote:

Well, it's about range and SPEED. As long as you have superior speed AND superior range, you will win. Period. However, if you can CATCH your opponent, the fact that torpedoes exhibit rather anemic refire rates can quickly be compensated for: Lazors have refire rates almost twice as fast, and are less prone to "wasteage" when many torpedoes are fired at a single target that is instantly destroyed, wasting all of the torpedoes.

Doesn't matter, torpedoes take less space (which improves your speed btw), do more damage at close range, and consume less energy... rate of fire is largely irrelevant on both due to shields soaking up a few good salvoes.
Besides, ultimate torpedo: Plasma Thunderbolt... does 72 damage per shot, shoots every 1.3 seconds. that is 1/1.3 = 0.769 shots per second. times 72 = 55.4 damage per second.
Ultimate laser, Titan beam SR... 22 damage per shot, shoots ever 0.7 seconds. thats 22/0.7 = 1.43 shots per second. times 22 = 31.43 DPS.
DPS of 55 vs 31, missiles win by math. So they have greater range AND greater damage AND consume less power (can fit more of them, less reactors and fuels, thus faster ship) AND take up less space (can fit more of them, less reactors and fuels, thus faster ship).
Lasers are fail, period.

quote:

The racial advantage isn't that the Shaktur is unique, the racial advantage is that they get it NOW. The Shaktur IS the most damaging weapon torp in the game and simultaneously doubles as a bombardment weapon, but, as you said, the range is wretched.

Shaktur has a fire rate of 2.3 seconds and a damage of 84... thats a DPS of 36.5
Recall from my above example that the ultimate torpedo does a dps of 55 and the ultimate laser does a dps of 31.
All of that with HALF the range of the laser (which has half the range of a real torpedo)...
Also, why in the world would you bombard anything? I wish I could prevent the ship design AI from ever using bombardment weapons...

quote:

Gold is not all that common of a resource, but as far as I can tell, it's not all that DEMANDED either, as most of the stuff I mine just piles up and is shiny. But yeah, the problem is that the megatron is positioned on the end of the tech tree. If it were positioned more reasonably on the tech tree, so that it was not the final item on the tech tree, this would not be a problem.

It is very much demanded when every military ship, civilian ship, and base requires a whole bunch of it to build their shields.

quote:

On the other hand, sometimes the regeneration is all that really matters. If you're fighting in a situation where you can't even overcome the regeneration on the shield, it doesn't matter how many points the shield is rated for because you are screwed. When you stick a thousand shields on something, having 1500 regen is a significant difference over 1300 regen, and the absolute number of shields ceases to matter.

The thing is, you are sacrificing a whole LOT of total value for very little regeneration... not enough to make it worthwhile. On a 30 shield ship, you go from 14400 shields and 39 a second regen rate, to 4200 shields and 45 regen rate... this is simply not enough... note how a SINGLE torpedo does more DPS then the regen rate of BOTH of these... since a 30 shields ship should be packing 30 torpedoes its DPS is then 1661.54...
1661.5 DPS vs megatron Z4... 1661.5 (damage) - 45 (recharge rate) = 1616.5 DPS, @4200 shield strength that is 2.598 seconds to overcome the shields.
1661.5 DPS vs deucalious KT900... 1661.5 (damage) - 39 (recharge rate) = 1622.5 DPS, @14400 shield strength that is 8.875 seconds to overcome the shields.
2.6 vs 8.9 seconds... deucalious KT900 is massively better. And the more ships you fight at once? the more that matters.

quote:

It does? I have never even *SEEN* a $20000 ship. I do not believe it to be physically possible to MAKE such a thing

The default large space port? the default capital ship once the tech level goes up a bit (and you get to the more expensive techs)? those are comon.
Interestingly in 1.0.4.4 I have seen unusual price inflation, I found out I have 0 sources of hydrogen, built 30 and they all mysteriously disappeared... the basic colony ship the AI designed? it increased in price to 200,000. but 20,000 ships were always around

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 10

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:38:15 AM

lostsm

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maybe the devs can add some point defense components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

(in reply to lordxorn)

Post #: 11

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 7:41:45 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

maybe the devs can add some point defense�components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

I do, I use AI design exclusively...
I did have fun experimenting though... I have taken my best capital ships, stripped their laser for tropedoes, replaced megatron by deucalious KT900, and watch them annihilate the enemy LSP that previously slaughtered all that was sent against it.

I think the solution is to improve the range of lasers... I mean, they are lasers! in space!

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 7:43:24 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 12

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 8:14:27 AM

lostsm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

maybe the devs can add some point defense�components to nullify our torps, that would help, but i'm not sure if they can even add that without some serious overhaul of the game

otherwise though, and it's a really lame solution, be counter intuitive and limit yourself in your designs for a challenge

I do, I use AI design exclusively...
I did have fun experimenting though... I have taken my best capital ships, stripped their laser for tropedoes, replaced megatron by deucalious KT900, and watch them annihilate the enemy LSP that previously slaughtered all that was sent against it.

I think the solution is to improve the range of lasers... I mean, they are lasers! in space!

i try to keep to AI designs but temptation is so hard to fend off! i always end up adding a reactor and then compensate for speed, and then next thing you know i'm redesiging the whole thing

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 13

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 9:59:45 AM

Bartje

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I think Fishman is right;

I also think he knows far too much about the AI

I think Fishman is the AI!

You are a great multitasker sir!

Perhaps there are too many people playing DW for you to keep up with, you should spawn some little Fishman hatchlings to play other people's games. That way you'll kick Player's buts!

Eitherway, AI design certainly needs a BOOOOST !!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/1/2010 11:02:30 AM >

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 14

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 10:48:04 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Lasers are fail, period.

Yeah, can't argue with the math there. Worth considering is that laser bolts have a higher launch speed and therefore may possess greater accuracy, but I can't get any numbers on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Shaktur has a fire rate of 2.3 seconds and a damage of 84... thats a DPS of 36.5
Recall from my above example that the ultimate torpedo does a dps of 55 and the ultimate laser does a dps of 31.

Well, yeah, but a Shaktur is a contemporary of the Maxos Blaster, not the Titan Beam SL. Although with numbers like that, it does seem rather a mistake to put it on the END of the techtree instead of somewhere in the middle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The thing is, you are sacrificing a whole LOT of total value for very little regeneration... not enough to make it worthwhile.

Well, obviously, the difference is not for small ships like a mere 30-shield cruiser. The regen thing is more for something like a Colossal Space Port, where if you filled it with Deucallios shields, the numbers would be 7 digits and you wouldn't even be able to SEE the shield strength, and frankly, anything that can shoot through 2 million shields will just as easily shoot through half a million.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/1/2010 11:00:14 AM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 15

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:34:54 AM

taltamir

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quote:

Well, yeah, but a Shaktur is a contemporary of the Maxos Blaster, not the Titan Beam SL. Although with numbers like that, it does seem rather a mistake to put it on the END of the techtree instead of somewhere in the middle.

Which is my whole point.. shaktur firestorm is set as the highest tech missile... it isn't, its a mid level missile.

quote:

Well, obviously, the difference is not for small ships like a mere 30-shield cruiser. The regen thing is more for something like a Colossal Space Port, where if you filled it with Deucallios shields, the numbers would be 7 digits and you wouldn't even be able to SEE the shield strength, and frankly, anything that can shoot through 2 million shields will just as easily shoot through half a million.

That does not compute, at all... why would you have orders of magnitude more shields then weapons? that is a total waste!
And the math indicates you are wrong about that assumption... put 300 shields instead of 30 and you would maintain the same type of ratios; math doesn't lie :)...
especially because you should expect to field armies with 300 torpedoes against those bases...

Actually, in the above example it was a capital ship with 30 shields and 30 torpedoes... A typical FLEET I make has 300 torpedoes between them. (mostly from smaller then capital ships actually). The duelc...

you know what... I am just yacking when I could be mathing... give me a moment...

ok so the same 30 torpedo ship is going up against a starbase with 300 shields instead of 30...
I will refer to the deucalious KT900 as "D Shield" and the Metatrox Z4 shields as "MZ shield".

On a 300 shield base (which will cost a LOT btw), you now have:
D shields have 144,000 strength and 390 a second regen rate.
MZ shields have 42,000 strength and 450 a second regen rate.

It is being hit by my 30 torpedo capital ship for a DPS of 1661.54...
1661.5 DPS vs MZ shield... 1661.5 (damage) - 450 (recharge rate) = 1211.5 DPS, @42,000 shield strength that is 34.7 seconds to penetrate shields.
1661.5 DPS vs D shields.... 1661.5 (damage) - 390 (recharge rate) = 1271.5 DPS, @144,000 shield strength that is 113.3 seconds to penetrate shields.

How much better are 300 D shields than 300 MZ shields? 133.3/34.7 = 3.84x as long to destroy the D shields.
How much better are 30 D shields than 300 MZ shields? 8.875/2.598 = 3.42x as long to overcome the D shields.

As you can see the ratio has gone UP... this means that as you increase shields the D shields become progressively BETTER then the MZ shields. Same for damage btw... as you increase the damage done to them the D shields also become superior over time.

Lets test it with the IDEAL conditions for MZ Shields than... that is, 1 single torpedo weapon (since the more weapons, the more favorable the D shields get), and 1 single shield component.
DPS is 55.4 for a single torpedo. DPS vs D shields is 55.4-1.3 = 54.1 DPS, @ 480 shields that means 8.87 seconds...
actually what am I doing, this is exactly the same result as the 30 shields vs 30 torpedoes were... duh!

what happens is, in an extreme case of 300 shields, a SINGLE weapon will not be able to overcome its recharge it. you need 8 torpedoes to overcome the recharge rate of d shields and 9 torpedoes to overcome the defenses of the MZ shields... once you have overcome it, each additional weapon added increases the effectiveness of D shields over MZ shields... at 7 neither shield would be penetrable, at 8 torpedoes, only the 300 D shields are penetrated, at 9 torpedoes both shields are penetrated (for having a 10 to 1 ratio of shields to weapons, which, is a completely ridiculous situation)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 11:38:16 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 16

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:34:59 AM

Gertjan

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What about accuracy of lasters and torpedos? I always thought that torpedos often didn't hit targets, this would balance things, right?

BTW excellent analysis, but it also nudges me to micro managing ship design, which I dont like so much. I only hope the ship design automation will improve soon. Is this on the list for the next update?

@Taltamir, do you use auto ship design or suggestion or full manual? Do you still find it fun to play if your ships are much stronger than those of the AI?

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 17

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:39:56 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gertjan
What about accuracy of lasters and torpedos? I always thought that torpedos often didn't hit targets, this would balance things, right?

I am not quite sure about the accuracy... what makes you think that lasers are more accurate though?
Honestly I have no idea how accuracy works in this game or where to find out.
The math I did had nothing to do with torpedoes vs lasers btw... only two different types of shields. The math is the same for lasers... D shields are just massively better than MZ shields.

quote:

@Taltamir, do you use auto ship design or suggestion or full manual? Do you still find it fun to play if your ships are much stronger than those of the AI?

Depends on my mood... usually full auto design to make things FAIR to me and the AI. (since I design better).

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 11:41:09 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 18

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:41:09 AM

Bartje

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Agreed better AI ship design is a must have improvement for the future.

Right now its roughtly "OK" but it should be "Wow! What just came by and blew up my space station???!!"

(in reply to Gertjan)

Post #: 19

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:44:05 AM

taltamir

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if the weapons and techs are rebalanced then you do not actually need to alter ship design.
If Megatron Z4 shields were modified to have a shield strength of 500 with a regen anywhere between 1.3 to 1.5 then they would be superior.
If shaktur firestorm were modifed to be a mid tech missile or were modified to have better/same range and better DPS then no changes needed.
If Lasers all had their range improved to surpass missiles then no change needed. (actually that would make sense, lasers are weaker but longer ranged, missiles do a lot more damage but are shorter range... and the AI currently loads up on about 2x as many lasers as missiles...). I would suggest making lasers longer ranged then missiles, slightly lower their damage, and slightly increase the damage of missiles.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 20

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:47:10 AM

Bartje

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Yes that would be a nice improvement, longer lasers, but weaker.

Perhaps they could be beam like?? Instead of pulsed.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 21

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 11:50:54 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Yes that would be a nice improvement, longer lasers, but weaker.

Perhaps they could be beam like?? Instead of pulsed.

Agreed, a continuous beam comprised of all the "beam weapons" on each ship that deals a set DPS... calculated as often as the shields are (I think it is 10 times per second). so deal meh damage at range with lasers, but if you close in its devastating missile barrage. Whether you attempt to close in or stay away is determined by your respective missile armament, if your missile loud-out is better, close in, if not, stay away.

IRL, pulsed lasers do have better efficiency than continuous lasers, but they are pulsed many times per second (thats existing tech btw), so fast that to a human they would appear as a continuous beam.

Take lasik lasers (from wikipedia):

quote:

Currently, manufactured Excimer lasers use an eye tracking system that follows the patient's eye position up to 4,000 times per second, redirecting laser pulses for precise placement within the treatment zone. Typical pulses are around 1 millijoule (mJ) of pulse energy in 10 to 20 nanoseconds.

to quote the source for that claim

quote:

3. The laser system of claim 1, wherein said solid state laser is a 40 Watt Nd:YAG laser, said first beam is a short pulse at 10 kHz repetition rates, and wherein said fourth beam has an average power of greater than about 1 Watt.

This means that the is fired 10,000 times per second, aka every 0.0001 seconds and each one of those lasts for 0.00000001 to 0.00000002 seconds.

In the terms used in the game, the ultimate laser fires a pulse every 0.7 seconds... while excimer lasers fies a pulse every 0.0001 seconds.
To a human, this would appear as a continuous beam if it were in the visible spectrum. or maybe not be visible at all.

However, regardless of what the IRL condition is... the current depiction is cool enough... its major problem is a one of balance where a whole class of weapons is effectively useless... the changes I suggested there are based on balancing and minimizing the changes necessary to the game... not trying to be as true to IRL as possible.

it might backfire to give lasers longer range with torpedoes becoming useless, so i guess the safest change is to make them equal range.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 12:07:19 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 22

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 12:10:25 PM

Bartje

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So in essence it would only be a matter of adjusting the combat properties of lasers

I wonder how the combat engine would take this alteration, It makes quite a difference in gameplay terms but hopefully technically (GPU, CPU etc..) it doesn't drain (much) more then the current laser system.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 23

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 5:19:57 PM

Shark7

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Imagine this...

You have 20 species, each that developed in isolation and on its own. Each developed along its own line, specializing in one tech or another along the way....

Does it not make sense that their ship design philosophy would also be unique?

The Boskara...aggressive insectiod species. Does it not make sense that they would prefer up close, personal and vicious fighting? What if Boskaran ships specialized in short range fighting, with heavy laser batters and heavy shields and armor. This is their design philiosphy.

Humans on the other hand prefer standoff combat using maneuver and employing feints and ruses. Their ships would utilize heavy torpedo batteries as well as ECM, and additional targeting modules with a few lasers for times when you just can't stay at range.

See where this is going. You can set the templates through a design philosophy that stays with the species through its designs. And get templates that allow the AI to fully utilize its building capacity. These might have to be defined by the developer, so that each ship utilizes its space to maximum effect.

Another Way to Handle It...

Hardpoints: I know not every one likes them (heck I don't like them) but it does make it possible to allow the AI to fully utilize its design capacity, prevent the player from building invincible ships, and allow the AI and players to stick to the species design philosophy. Taking the examples above:

Base Deign for an escort...

4 Beam HPs
2 Torpedo HPs
4 Armor HPs
2 Shield HPs
1 ECM HP
1 Command Module HP
1 Computer HP
Hab, Eninges, and Reactor are unlimited.

For the Boskaran they get the following bonuses:

6 Additional Beam HPs (total of 10)
6 Additional Armor HPs (total of 10)
2 Additional Shield HPs (total of 4)

Humans get the following Bonuses:

4 Torpedo HPs (total of 6)
1 ECM HP (total of 2)
1 Computer HP (total of 2)

By using a HP system, you can balance the designs while not making them exactly the same. You can also define a number of HPs per type (IE Escort, Frigate, etc) making the types different from each other. As I said, I usually don't support hardpoints, but it could be the best solution, especially in a single player game like DW where you don't have another players designs to have to compete with. Unfortunately with the AI being limited (as all AIs are), then you have to level the playing field by maknig the player use the same rules.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 5/1/2010 5:20:55 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 5:41:31 PM

alexalexuk

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/6/2010
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im finding that playing this game is now turning into a clickfest,

i now know my ships can now kill everything and anything in the galaxy, the game has turned into a "its only a matter of time before i win" type of game; aboslutly no challenge with the AI and its type of ships that are against mine.

I could probably start a "harder" game, but the truth is, as soon as i build my custom ships, ill wipe all the AI's ships out of the ballpark sooner or later.

(in reply to alexalexuk)

Post #: 25

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/1/2010 6:02:19 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

Imagine this...

You have 20 species, each that developed in isolation and on its own. Each developed along its own line, specializing in one tech or another along the way....

Does it not make sense that their ship design philosophy would also be unique?

Physics is physics... so no it does not make sense that their ship designs would be unique. Disparate societies on earth managed to reach the same conclusions in construction, weaponry, etc... How? because the basics physical properties of reality favor certain things.

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Post #: 26

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/2/2010 3:31:17 AM

alexalexuk

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/6/2010
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a solution - following on from shark7's idea

the AI could think like this: (speaking from the AI's point of view here)

- ill build my first escort ship... max size 200, ill put 30% of the space into weapons, 25% engines, 45% "other ie hab's sensors etc"
- ill build a whole load of escort ships
- im now at war with a human player
- oh crap, im loosing lots of ships i should switch design
- ill redesign my "escort ships" into a "escort ships vs human player"
- "escort ship vs human player mk 1" - 60% of space into weapons, 20% engines, 20% other.
- ill build a fleet of these and attack/defend with them
- oh crap my mk1 ships are crappy, ive just lots all of them in battle!, i need to redesign!
- "escort ship vs human player mk 2" - 20% of space into weapons, 60% engines, 20% other.
- ill build a couple of fleets
- great! my mk 2 ships are doing better now, ill form more fleets to push the human back!
- the battle goes well, im meeting the stupid human fleets with my fleets, things are going good but could be better!
- ....a little time goes by......
- ill redesign my escort ships to make em perfect, im still loosing too many now, i think the human has redesigned his ships!
- "escort ship vs human player mk 3" - 25% of space into weapons, 55% engines, 20% other.
- ill build a couple of fleets
- things look even better now with mk3 vs mk2, that human has no chance!
- and the cycle continues.

The AI then rotates through a couple of behavours like:

Option 1:

The AI would then have "ship types" for each individual race that its at war with, this would get very messy as you would face ships that "easy" since they are designed for another "war" - BUT - this could be a desperate option for the AI if its facing a certain overwhelming defeat and has to focus on protecting itself from one opponent

Option 2:

It designs and builds ships that balances the ship loadouts depending on which enemy ships its facing. For example its at war with 3 races, it will design ships that will be able to match odds with all of them, if it cant, it will switch to option 1 to focus on the enemy race thats conquering planets / beating it in fleet combat etc..

opinions?

< Message edited by alexalexuk -- 5/2/2010 3:40:19 AM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 27

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/2/2010 5:35:19 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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I think there's a simpler, more direct approach to ship design:
1. Randomly load thousands of simulated ships with parts.
2. Have them fight to the death in simulated battles until only a few remain.
3. Randomly duplicate the surviving ships, slightly varying their part compositions until there are again thousands of ships.
4. Repeat step 2.

Eventually, the perfect design should emerge.

(in reply to alexalexuk)

Post #: 28

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/2/2010 6:36:00 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I think there's a simpler, more direct approach to ship design:
1. Randomly load thousands of simulated ships with parts.
2. Have them fight to the death in simulated battles until only a few remain.
3. Randomly duplicate the surviving ships, slightly varying their part compositions until there are again thousands of ships.
4. Repeat step 2.

Eventually, the perfect design should emerge.

nice... the power of the PC is that it literally CAN throw a million monkeys on a million typing machines...

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Post #: 29

RE: my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime - 5/2/2010 4:21:09 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

Imagine this...

You have 20 species, each that developed in isolation and on its own. Each developed along its own line, specializing in one tech or another along the way....

Does it not make sense that their ship design philosophy would also be unique?

Physics is physics... so no it does not make sense that their ship designs would be unique. Disparate societies on earth managed to reach the same conclusions in construction, weaponry, etc... How? because the basics physical properties of reality favor certain things.

Physics are a constant, sentient species are not. You can take two similar groups of humans, present them with a problem, and get two different solutions....now imagine that on a galactic scale with two groups that are not similar. The physics on 2 planets are identical, but how 2 different species tackle the problems are more likely to be different than not.

In other words, 2 separate, unique paths to the same answer. This is why I say hardpoints...you'll get essentially the same answer, with quite a bit of variation on how they got there and the over-all design of the final product.

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Post #: 30