Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons

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Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 2:13:27 PM

taltamir

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Death Ray
DPS: 164.7
Size: 140
Space Efficiency (DPS/Size): 1.18
EPS (Energy per second: 47
Energy Efficiency (DPS/EPS): 3.5
Cost (to purchase): 4800
Money Efficiency (DPS/Cost): 0.034

Titan Beam SR:
DPS: 31.4
Size: 6
Space Efficiency (DPS/Size): 5.2
EPS (Energy per second: 24
Energy Efficiency (DPS/EPS): 1.3
Cost (to purchase): 168
Money Efficiency (DPS/Cost): 0.187

Ratios (Death Ray / Titan Beam SR):
Space Efficiency: 0.23
Energy Efficiency: 2.69
Money Efficiency: 0.18

The Death Ray is 2.69 times more energy efficient than the Titan Beam SR. It only has 23% the space efficieny and 18% the money efficiency though.

Ratios (Titan Beam SR / Death Ray):
Space Efficiency: 4.4
Energy Efficiency: 0.37
Money Efficiency: 5.5

The titan beam is 4.4 times more space efficient and 5.5 times more money efficient. But only has 37% of the energy efficiency.

Unless money and space are of no issue, and for some reason energy is extremely limited, the titan beam SR is a superior weapon. Not taken into account here is the fact that the titan beam SR delivers its damage in many small shots, which reduces wasteage (ex: delivering 1400 damage to an enemy with 300 life remaining is a waste of 1100 damage that could have gone to other opponents) However, the Death ray does enjoy an initiail first blast of extra damage. Unfortunately it is not enough damage to pentrate the shields of anything but a trade ship.

Conclusion: never use the death ray, it sucks.
Addendum: This was comparing the death ray to regular beam weapons, however, beam weapons all suck. The death ray has a range of 440 and heavy loss of damage. the titan beam a range of 450... both are inconsequential compared to the range of torpedo weapons... But even when comparing rays to rays the death ray is inferior.

Devastator Pulse
DPS: 75
Size: 170
Space Efficiency (DPS/Size): 0.44
EPS (Energy per second: 78
Energy Efficiency (DPS/EPS): 0.96
Cost (to purchase): 3840
Money Efficiency (DPS/Cost): 0.020

Derasian Shockwave WSD-230:
DPS: 26.875
Size: 9
Space Efficiency (DPS/Size): 3.0
EPS (Energy per second: 26
Energy Efficiency (DPS/EPS): 1.0
Cost (to purchase): 168
Money Efficiency (DPS/Cost): 0.160

Ratios (Derasian Shockwave WSD-230 / Devastator Pulse):
Space Efficiency: 6.8
Energy Efficiency: 1.04
Money Efficiency: 8

The Derasian Shockwave WSD-230 is 6.8 times as space efficient, 1.04 times as energy efficient, and 8 times as money efficient as the Devastator Pulse...

there is no reason to use the devastator pulse, ever.
If you want to weaken an AI who has the highest tech level area weapons, give him the devastator pulse as a gift, all his craft will become weaker as a result.

The fact it has longer cooldown between shots, more damage in each shot (thus wasted damage), more damage loss over distance... all also work against the devastator pulse... it does have a max range that is slightly greater though, at 520 vs 480.
Personally I dislike pulse weapons at all, but if you have to use a pulse weapon, do NOT use the devastator pulse, it utterly sucks.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/2/2010 2:38:13 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 3:34:43 PM

Bartje

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From: Netherlands
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Well this here needs some tweaking!

Good find, Taltamir!

I hope Erik sees this

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 2

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 3:47:22 PM

Erik Rutins

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Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 3

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 5:29:15 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

sounds good. no rush :)
would be great if weapon descriptions actually listed the following values:
Space Efficiency (DPS/Size): 1.18
Energy Efficiency (DPS/EPS): 3.5
Money Efficiency (DPS/Cost): 0.034

It would also make it simpler to balance if you are looking at (and teaking) these values for each weapon.

Also, I noticed that a ship's firepower is simply the sum of the damage per shot of each weapon it carries... it should be the sum of the damage per second of each weapon, not damage per shot.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/2/2010 5:31:14 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 4

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 6:26:51 PM

Canute0

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quote:

Also, I noticed that a ship's firepower is simply the sum of the damage per shot of each weapon it carries... it should be the sum of the damage per second of each weapon, not damage per shot.

Not realy true.
When you got Shiped that can destroy all other Ships at the 1. Salvo it doesnt matter if it got huge reload time.
But beware if all shoots of that Salvo missed the target :-)

And even when at a fight 1 vs many, when you kill 1 enemy instantly it can't do any damage to you anymore, that means you can stay longer against the others.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 5

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 7:19:26 PM

lostsm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 6

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 7:30:47 PM

Jaimoe_MatrixForum

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Well they'd still have to balance the game for the casual player who has no intention of modding.

(in reply to lostsm)

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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 7:32:07 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute

quote:

Also, I noticed that a ship's firepower is simply the sum of the damage per shot of each weapon it carries... it should be the sum of the damage per second of each weapon, not damage per shot.

Not realy true.
When you got Shiped that can destroy all other Ships at the 1. Salvo it doesnt matter if it got huge reload time.
But beware if all shoots of that Salvo missed the target :-)

And even when at a fight 1 vs many, when you kill 1 enemy instantly it can't do any damage to you anymore, that means you can stay longer against the others.

You will only be able to destroy freighters with with an initial salvo of a superweapon... It takes multiple shots to penetrate the shields of even a single military ship of reasonable size.

besides, if you are looking at initial salvo, then all you are comparing is damage (not DPS, but damage per single hit) /size and damage (not DPS, but single hit) / cost.
for titan beam its 22/6 = 3.7 damage/size
for death ray its 1400/140 = 10 damage/size
the death ray indeed has more initial damage per size unit. 2.7x as much...
Oh, and a thunderbolt MX torpedo does an initial shot damage of 14.4 damage/size unit. (size 5, damage 72 per shot)
that means that 140 space worth of torpedoes does more initial damage than 140 space worth of death ray.

The AI puts 6 shields on a cruiser and 10 on a capital ship (which is way too little)... using top end shields that is 2880 and 4800 shield strength repectively. The top end shields take 2.92 shield components to stop a shot of a single death ray. So a ship with 10 death rays (size 1,400 for the death rays alone) would only be able to penetrade 29.2 shields, oh look, I put 30 shields on all my capital ships (8x30 = 240 space total).
But even the AI designed ships... that cruiser the AI designed has 2880 shields and 560 armor. it will take 3 death rays to penetrate all that in one shot.
Captial ship designed by AI? 4800 shields and 800 armor. It will take exact 4 to strip away all that armor and shields without doing any actual damage, so you actually need 5 death rays to one shot an AI designed capital ship.
Lets not forget the good old space stations with their heavy shielding.

BTW, if the death ray multiplied both damage and cooldown by, say, 10... it would be viable due to initial damage... 14,000 damage but fire only once every 85 seconds. Still, a far from ideal weapon. but it would actually have 1 redeeming factor and be of some use in certain tactics. or if it had very long range, or if it took less space, or any one of other improvements that could be made. The example with 14,000 damage and 85 seconds cooldown actually means that all the numbers about efficiency and DPS I have mentioned stay the same, while initial damage/space ratio goes up by a factor of 10x. which drastically alters its usefulness... of course, in such a case it would have even more damage wastage and handle groups of smaller ships really badly.
When I took the AI designs and removed the super weapon to replace them with plain old torpedoes my ships began slaughtering all that opposed them... they had a massive increase in damage capacity.

You know, I originally compared the death ray to a laser weapon because they are both rays... but if I think about it, lasers have rapid firing rate and no or low damage. Torpedoes are high damage and longer cooldowns... in this manner, deathray could be though of as a bad torpedo... this makes things worse as torpedoes are vastly superior to beam weapons.
As shown above, 140 space gets you one death ray that does 1400 damage per shot... or it gets you 28 torpedoes that do 2016 damage per shot (and with much faster firing rate)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/2/2010 7:59:15 PM >

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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 8:01:06 PM

lostsm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaimoe

Well they'd still have to balance the game for the casual player who has no intention of modding.

what for? the game is fun out of the box. the casual player has as much chance of updating as modding.

seeing how the game is fun and addictive straight off the shelves, why are they putting in any time working on balance when things like balance can be resolved in the hands of the community in a much more better way that from a developer

(in reply to Jaimoe_MatrixForum)

Post #: 9

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 8:08:19 PM

taltamir

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but if modders come up with great balancing schemes, they could then be integrated as the official default balance.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/2/2010 8:10:16 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/2/2010 10:38:43 PM

Munchies

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true
as long as the modders aren't idiots and keep the game within the context of what the devs originally had in mind.

I have seen mods that were well balanced, but after all was done it was a completely different game.
but then that may be a good thing

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 11

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 12:51:45 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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We do plan to open more things up to modding, but we have to get a few more things done first. With that said, if you all are interested in the weapon balance, feel free to post your suggestions and back them up with any analysis you have done. We will read them and definitely take your feedback into account when we look at the default weapon balance. Taltamir's feedback on this has been quite good so far, for example.

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Munchies)

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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 1:47:12 AM

Fishman

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The Death Ray does have one VERY important factor, though: It's the only worthwhile weapon that can accomplish anything within the constraints of a single gun.

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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 3:08:06 AM

Cindar

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Another factor that makes the Death Ray worse: Missing. Lets say both weapons have a 20% chance of missing. For the Death Ray, that means you kill nothing and have to wait forever as your weapon recharges. For a much larger number of weaker weapons, your variance from the expected mean damage is much smaller, leading to consistent damage.

This is particularly aggravating when my Death Star is staring at an enemy station and misses multiple times with its main gun even though the station is completely immobile. Had I used a much larger number of standard weapons, I would not have a ship that managed to inflict an impressively weak 0 damage over the course of a minute.

Frankly I would like to see the missile-energy weapons balanced first though. The super weapons you almost never see, but missile weapons are always hands down the best weapon and its a major problem when the AI likes to use energy weapons. I think it would be a good idea to give lasers an inherent +accuracy while missile weapons should miss more often if an enemy is faster, as a way of simulating the enemy ship being able to dodge around the missiles. But thats just my suggestion. The AI certainly needs to learn that lasers are not effective weapons when you can't catch up to enemy ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

The Death Ray does have one VERY important factor, though: It's the only worthwhile weapon that can accomplish anything within the constraints of a single gun.

Coincidentally, Civilian ships just got limited to 1 weapon per ship...

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/3/2010 3:14:58 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 3:23:16 AM

lostsm

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they could also boost ECM efficiency

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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:04:37 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

The Death Ray does have one VERY important factor, though: It's the only worthwhile weapon that can accomplish anything within the constraints of a single gun.

haha... yes... they are good for arming your transports... but I find that arming them isn't worthwhile anyways.. Heck, I even have some with no armor, no shields, no weapons... I managed to half their price that way... 1 or 2 shields and a single plate of armor and a single gun double the price of the ship, but doesn't really affect its survivability much. (well, it does help early on... I make the change in the late game where things are "safe")

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 16

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:28:39 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Coincidentally, Civilian ships just got limited to 1 weapon per ship...

That was my point. Every other weapon isn't even worth bothering with with only one, as it would be incapable of penetrating shields. Only the Death Ray can still do damage under those conditions. Sure, the size-efficiency is terrible, but if you're stupidly limited to ONE weapon, that's the only option there is, everything else is worthless.

(in reply to Cindar)

Post #: 17

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:40:42 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Coincidentally, Civilian ships just got limited to 1 weapon per ship...
That was my point. Every other weapon isn't even worth bothering with with only one, as it would be incapable of penetrating shields. Only the Death Ray can still do damage under those conditions. Sure, the size-efficiency is terrible, but if you're stupidly limited to ONE weapon, that's the only option there is, everything else is worthless.

A deathray costs 4800!
my small unarmed, unarmed, and unshielded freighter costs 1040, and my large one 1688... average of 1364

That is quite an increase in the cost of freighters there... my annual ship and base maintenance for my civilian sector is 435k of which 59K is bases and 376K is freighters and passenger ships.
2 shields and a deathray costs 5152... increasing the cost of every freighter by that much would increase average cost from 1364 to 6516... a 4.77x increase. increasing the expenses for private sector by that much means going from 376k * 4.77 = 1793.52K... an increase of 1358.52K... currently my private sector is earning 1064K total.. this will make it go to -294.52K.

1 single weapon on a private ship would actually work fine if:
1. they shot at any hostile within range, even while escaping (currently they only start shooting after being hit... thing is, once something is hitting them they are doomed, and if I have dozens of freighters bunched together, it will pick them off one by one, regenerating the shields from their ONE weapon as they are shooting it... while 20 ships shooting at once is not that easy to shrug off)
2. They use lasers... they should use 1 torpedo. better range, better initial damage... 20 torpedoes firing at once (all freighters in an area) would do lots of damage. a lone freighter shouldn't be a threat... 20 freighters vs 1 small lone military ship? the military ship would die if they actually all fired on it at once.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 8:43:30 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 18

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:48:28 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

A deathray costs 4800!

Yes, but you're forgetting an important point. In DW, the continued existence of the universe is contingent on my patience! I have already demonstrated that I am willing to do some very unreasonable things if it will reduce the level of annoyance. If I have to take to arming freighters with death rays just to avoid being bothered by the problem over and over, I WILL! Why do you think I made 20-gun Indiaman freighters to begin with?!?

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 19

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:58:29 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

A deathray costs 4800!
Yes, but you're forgetting an important point. In DW, the continued existence of the universe is contingent on my patience! I have already demonstrated that I am willing to do some very unreasonable things if it will reduce the level of annoyance. If I have to take to arming freighters with death rays just to avoid being bothered by the problem over and over, I WILL! Why do you think I made 20-gun Indiaman freighters to begin with?!?

Turn off pirates... I actually find it makes for a better game, pirates are annoying mechanically... no matter how many you kill new ones always spawn at an equal rate... explorer ships do NOT patrol systems that have been explored when the entire galaxy is explored, so its a PITA to find the pirates. and honestly, they harm the AI more then you, and give you an easy way to keep your approval ratings up (by blowing their bases)... Acting dubious actually hurts when there are no pirates to kill for a quick boost.
Or you can just pay them off, it is a pittance and is much cheaper than arming your freighters with death rays.
1,358,520 more credits per year to put a deathray on every civilian ship... or a few thousands per pirate faction? I'd take the payoff.

with no pirates what remains? monsters (your fleet hunts those) and enemy empires (no biggie)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 9:00:12 AM >

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 20

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 9:14:57 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

1,358,520 more credits per year to put a deathray on every civilian ship... or a few thousands per pirate faction? I'd take the payoff.

Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! Plus, there's an important thing you're missing: Melted pirates are good for your rep! There's an awful lot of pirates, and they blow up real pretty. What more reason do you need? Additionally, you don't actually PAY for said death rays: PRIVATE does. Since you can, at best, if you try REALLY hard, manage to extract half of that money from them, the other half may as well be used for death rays!

Or, you know, we could just put it back to the old system, in which I could have proper Indiamen capable of unleashing deadly broadsides if provoked, and the rest of the galaxy hated me for it. Let them hate, so long as they fear!

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

with no pirates what remains? monsters (your fleet hunts those) and enemy empires (no biggie)

Monsters and enemy empires are a significant problem, though. Even with your spinelessness, there is no way to buy off Kaltors, and unlike pirates, they are not apparently subject to extirpation, they keep popping back up. But as long as I can properly arm things to deal with them, why not? I like a target-rich environment.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 21

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 9:20:20 AM

taltamir

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quote:

Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! Plus, there's an important thing you're missing: Melted pirates are good for your rep! There's an awful lot of pirates, and they blow up real pretty. What more reason do you need? Additionally, you don't actually PAY for said death rays: PRIVATE does. Since you can, at best, if you try REALLY hard, manage to extract half of that money from them, the other half may as well be used for death rays!

Or, you know, we could just put it back to the old system, in which I could have proper Indiamen capable of unleashing deadly broadsides if provoked, and the rest of the galaxy hated me for it. Let them hate, so long as they fear!

As I have done the math, the private sector will go bankrupt trying to pay for it. And I take a much more proactive approach.. I destroy EVERY pirate base within my territory... during war? I will prioritize pirate bases over the enemy empire's assets...
When I did the payoff thing? I would pay off the pirates AND hunt down and kill them as soon as I found their base.

quote:

Monsters and enemy empires are a significant problem, though. Even with your spinelessness, there is no way to buy off Kaltors, and unlike pirates, they are not apparently subject to extirpation, they keep popping back up. But as long as I can properly arm things to deal with them, why not? I like a target-rich environment.

If I see a keltor, I send my military fleets to kill it... MUCH cheaper than arming the merchants...

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 9:23:29 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 22

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 9:45:13 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

As I have done the math, the private sector will go bankrupt trying to pay for it.

I suspect your private sector is less profitable because you take a different administrative approach than I do. There's also the fact that maybe the private sector wouldn't have bought so many of them if they cost that much more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

And I take a much more proactive approach.. I destroy EVERY pirate base within my territory... during war? I will prioritize pirate bases over the enemy empire's assets...

I'm not really familiar with during-a-war vs. not-during-a-war. When I play, there's always a war. Some jackhole declares war on me, and his jackhole friends soon follow. Pretty soon I can't keep who's who straight anymore, so I declare war on the rest of them so it doesn't hose my rep because I can't tell whether the red dots are the bad guys, or those slightly-other-red dots are not the bad guys. If it ain't mine, I KILL IT. DW does not do a good job making things seem distinct from each other, everything looks overly shootable and in-your-face.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

If I see a keltor, I send my military fleets to kill it... MUCH cheaper than arming the merchants...

Yeah, well, until they invent the jump drive ala STUN, that military fleet, even if they are fortunate enough to actually HAVE VelocityDrives, will show up about 6 months after the matter has become a moot point. Additionally, *I* have to take time off my BUSY SCHEDULE to deal with it. The merchants are there right NOW, and can deal with it WITHOUT MY BABYSITTING THEM. EAT LAZOR DEATH!

There's also the minor problem that I don't actually have more than about 3 warships, and all of them are things I found. And I am NOT pulling my CONSTRUCTORS off of their jobs just to hunt down some stinky Kaltor. To me, it seems such a waste to build actual warships, given that they will never actually be where they are NEEDED, when I can instead arm the things that always seem to run into trouble, and save the warships for when I plan to actually pursue the war rather than waiting for it to come to me.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 23

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 9:52:00 AM

taltamir

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quote:

I suspect your private sector is less profitable because you take a different administrative approach than I do. There's also the fact that maybe the private sector wouldn't have bought so many of them if they cost that much more.

Way of ancients, no pirates, I conquered every other empire and colonized every planet.

quote:

I'm not really familiar with during-a-war vs. not-during-a-war. When I play, there's always a war. Some jackhole declares war on me, and his jackhole friends soon follow. Pretty soon I can't keep who's who straight anymore, so I declare war on the rest of them so it doesn't hose my rep because I can't tell whether the red dots are the bad guys, or those slightly-other-red dots are not the bad guys. If it ain't mine, I KILL IT. DW does not do a good job making things seem distinct from each other, everything looks overly shootable and in-your-face.

Are we talking 1.0.4.4? the AI is much less likely to declare war on a greater power... and all you have to do is blow up a few star bases and they agree to subjugation. (Which means that they are highly unlike to declare war on you)...

if two empires have a similar colony, I make them top priority for annihilation :)

quote:

Yeah, well, until they invent the jump drive ala STUN, that military fleet, even if they are fortunate enough to actually HAVE VelocityDrives, will show up about 6 months after the matter has become a moot point. Additionally, *I* have to take time off my BUSY SCHEDULE to deal with it. The merchants are there right NOW, and can deal with it WITHOUT MY BABYSITTING THEM. EAT LAZOR DEATH!

There's also the minor problem that I don't actually have more than about 3 warships, and all of them are things I found. And I am NOT pulling my CONSTRUCTORS off of their jobs just to hunt down some stinky Kaltor. To me, it seems such a waste to build actual warships, given that they will never actually be where they are NEEDED, when I can instead arm the things that always seem to run into trouble, and save the warships for when I plan to actually pursue the war rather than waiting for it to come to me.

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares. And for the rest my AI does a decent enough job of protecting them and eliminating threats... heck, I have even seen it invade planets successfully... granted it is SLOOOOOW about it.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 9:54:48 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 24

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 10:18:17 AM

Gertjan

Posts: 698
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline

Wow. Good to hear that weapons will be patched. Does this also mean that the ship design automation will be improved? I find Taltamir's analysis interesting, but I would rather not be bothered with micro issues such as ship design. Hence why I would like automation to be improved as well.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 25

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 10:25:07 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gertjan

Wow. Good to hear that weapons will be patched. Does this also mean that the ship design automation will be improved? I find Taltamir's analysis interesting, but I would rather not be bothered with micro issues such as ship design. Hence why I would like automation to be improved as well.

You and me both... if the automation does a good enough job I would just leave it to it and never bother with it again :)

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Gertjan)

Post #: 26

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 11:30:18 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares.

So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 27

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 11:52:16 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Turn ship build and attacks against enemies to full auto, disable notifications about being under attack... a few merchant ships die alone and unloved... who cares.
So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

sure you are playing... I have, literally, thousands of freighters... I let the AI patrol the routes and protect them with ships it builds... I build ships for several fleets which I then assign, I assign each of them a ctrl+number, and I use those to do specific things... hunt for pirates, hunt monsters, protect important things, attack enemies, etc...

The rest of the empire works...

How is letting the AI build some fleets and use those to protect your freighters "not playing the game", but designing the freighters to have enough weapons and shields to take out whomever attacks them (and the AI auto builds and auto controls said freighters) IS playing the game?
I see no difference between the two.. in the end the AI is helping me manage the empire, it does its thing, builds, protects, patrols... I still play and I directly control fleets and direct them as I see fit.

in 4.0.4.4 the AI is actually pretty good about maintaining a selection of ships, as well as auto upgrading them / retiring them to keep them the last version... it even upgrades star bases automatically. And freighters etc do as well... there was a bug in the civilian mining base retrofit function that caused most to be retired instead which i have reported and I was told by elliot was fixed in 1.0.4 final.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2454634

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 11:53:52 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 4:50:04 PM

Wicky

Posts: 102
Joined: 4/1/2010
From: Linz, Austria
Status: offline

Well, don't get your feet off too much of the ground. If the super-weapon death ray kills the enemy in one shot, then all your calculations about DPS, damage efficiency per energy (and thus space) become totally useless!

For example the world destroyer has a damage potential of 8000 in one shot, however it can fire only every 30 seconds, that means 266 DPS.
Now your super-designed battleship with 500 DPS comes in and it is killed in one shot?

< Message edited by Wicky -- 5/3/2010 5:13:18 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 29

RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 5:12:43 PM

Munchies

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline

Well if you automate everything then you are playing a hands-off game and therefore you are not playing it. Just watching.
But yeah, I see Tals point too.

As far as the weapons go, you have other factors besides just raw DPS, EPS, and so on to consider. I have had the AI shoot down my torpedoes before for example. Can't shoot down a laser.

It is just diff to balance these things when you don't have all the info.

(in reply to Wicky)

Post #: 30