Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> The War Room >> Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/4/2010 5:25:18 PM

pcall

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/2/2010
Status: offline

Hi,

If I wanna fight off pirates that are trying to extort me by attacking my trade routes, do I just build more escorts? Will they automatically protect my freighters?

Post #: 1

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/4/2010 6:18:54 PM

exelsiar

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

if your frieghters have some shielding and armour they'll survive untill they get to a safe distance (normally), that on top of having more escorts and frigates will indeed deal with the pirates well enough. if still not satisfied, find and take out their base of operations ^_^

_____________________________

(in reply to pcall)

Post #: 2

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/4/2010 6:19:13 PM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

If you build, or even design, more escorts, you are making your problems worse. Don't do this. What happens is that if you build a shiny new anti-pirate escort, frigate, or destroyer, the pirates will get exact copies of these designs and you will be facing pirates with exactly the same ships. This is extremely counterproductive, since now you need a newer, better ship...which means...

So, don't do this.

(in reply to pcall)

Post #: 3

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/4/2010 10:04:35 PM

pcall

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

If you build, or even design, more escorts, you are making your problems worse. Don't do this. What happens is that if you build a shiny new anti-pirate escort, frigate, or destroyer, the pirates will get exact copies of these designs and you will be facing pirates with exactly the same ships. This is extremely counterproductive, since now you need a newer, better ship...which means...

So, don't do this.

So just add armor and shielding? Shouldn't building more escorts be the same as long as I keep the design the same, or does it mean there will be more pirates around too?

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 4

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 1:02:58 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

If you don't redesign, or allow the computer to redesign, your escorts, and you're not the tech leader, you can build as many standard escorts as you want, but then they suck and are worthless, so there's again no point in building them because they won't actually successfully defeat pirates on their own. Escort has to be able to shoot down a pirate on its own, without your intervention. That means no mobbing or manual flight tactics.

(in reply to pcall)

Post #: 5

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 1:35:21 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pcall
If I wanna fight off pirates that are trying to extort me by attacking my trade routes, do I just build more escorts? Will they automatically protect my freighters?

Yes, more escorts and frigates will help, though they will generally protect the destinations that the freighters go to rather than escorting the freighters themselves.

Yes, the pirates may also get access to your designs, but not building escorts and frigates because of that is not a good solution. You need a cheap anti-piracy force and these size ships are ideally suited for that role.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to pcall)

Post #: 6

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 1:48:52 AM

pcall

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/2/2010
Status: offline

I'm currently restricting to building a ship size of 200. How do I break that ship building limit?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 7

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 3:01:07 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

Construction research.

(in reply to pcall)

Post #: 8

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 3:39:15 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, the pirates may also get access to your designs, but not building escorts and frigates because of that is not a good solution. You need a cheap anti-piracy force and these size ships are ideally suited for that role.

Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

EMPIRES should be the ones creating knockoff models of your ships: They actually have to PAY for it and this makes it fair. Pirates shouldn't. As it stands now, building an escort is a counterproductive exercise that instantly undermines the very goal you made them for.

If you want the real countermove, the answer is to design hundreds of crippled escort, destroyer, and frigate models, which don't function effectively, and then never build any of them. Pirates will imitate THOSE designs instead, and be completely crippled and harmless.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/5/2010 3:40:28 AM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 9

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 4:03:08 AM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

Agreed. One escort or frigate tagging along or watching the destination doesn't do enough against 2-3 ships of the same design. Building more escorts and frigates so that you have 4-5 at each system should counter that though. Providing the AI manages them properly.

quote:

If you want the real countermove, the answer is to design hundreds of crippled escort, destroyer, and frigate models, which don't function effectively, and then never build any of them. Pirates will imitate THOSE designs instead, and be completely crippled and harmless.

At that point, you might as well turn pirates off completely.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 10

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 4:18:43 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

Agreed. One escort or frigate tagging along or watching the destination doesn't do enough against 2-3 ships of the same design. Building more escorts and frigates so that you have 4-5 at each system should counter that though. Providing the AI manages them properly.

That's a lot of ifs. And a lot of ships. All this to solve a problem you unnecessarily created in the first place, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

At that point, you might as well turn pirates off completely.

That'd be why I don't do it, although it clearly exposes the weakness in the system.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 11

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 5:18:51 AM

Tacit_Exit

Posts: 82
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline

I just 'copy as new' an Escort/Frigate/Destroyer design and change its designation to Capital Ship then build those as my cheap anti pirate forces.

I think this stymies the copyright violating pirates.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 12

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 5:35:46 AM

exelsiar

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

everyone seems to over emphasise the pirate problem, i play with maximum pirate setting, and have literally only seen 1 ship of my own design, and that was many many games ago, the pirates steal designs from other players too, so as long as your not playing solo sandbox mode you'll have very little trouble... unless you build like a 2000 size escort ;)

_____________________________

(in reply to Tacit_Exit)

Post #: 13

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 6:43:14 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: exelsiar

everyone seems to over emphasise the pirate problem, i play with maximum pirate setting, and have literally only seen 1 ship of my own design, and that was many many games ago, the pirates steal designs from other players too, so as long as your not playing solo sandbox mode you'll have very little trouble... unless you build like a 2000 size escort ;)

Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/5/2010 6:44:38 AM >

(in reply to exelsiar)

Post #: 14

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 12:33:41 PM

exelsiar

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

haha that does sound brutal, thankfully ive never run into that problem, i only manage to keep putting myself in the red thought building only super massive space ports and defence bases, only managed to work out that they were the cause when i was trying to sleep >_<

_____________________________

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 15

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 12:42:49 PM

2guncohen

Posts: 401
Joined: 4/9/2010
From: Belguim
Status: offline

Do you guys ever encountered that the private sector makes escorts ships ?

(in reply to exelsiar)

Post #: 16

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 2:35:45 PM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

Actually, that sounds like fun... And it keeps you on your toes in dealing with pirates. I've been thinking I should start designing new escorts to be a little more powerful. I haven't seen any pirate destroyers yet in any of my games though. Just escorts and a few frigates.

(in reply to 2guncohen)

Post #: 17

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 7:46:18 PM

exelsiar

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2guncohen

Do you guys ever encountered that the private sector makes escorts ships ?

no, not personally, though it would be awesome if they did, as long as it was an optional thing :)

_____________________________

(in reply to 2guncohen)

Post #: 18

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 7:50:36 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Unfortunately, they also fail at this role because of the aforementioned "free imitation" problem. In order for your escort to function as a meaningful escort, it has to be stronger than what it is fighting. Otherwise it just gets killed. But if you build a better escort, then the pirates instantly and freely copy this escort, which forces you to then make a better one, as your new escort is immediately obsolete. You cannot out-compete something that doesn't actually PAY for what it is making, so you have lost the moment you make the design: The pirates have it before you've even managed to build one. That's the real problem with the "pirates copy designs" thing. All that tech research you put into making that new escort? Totally wasted now.

I disagree. I play this game too, you know.

I update my Escort and Frigate designs regularly and build enough of them to make sure I always have plenty to guard and escort my key ships and stations. The pirates upgrade as well, but they are never a real problem despite my upgrades. Things may be different for your playstyle, but not building escorts and frigates or building crippled ones is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 19

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 7:52:44 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Mine was only 450, but it immediately became clear to me that it was a REAL bitch...and they began to proliferate REALLY fast, because all other pirates instantly died on contact. But that escort? Unkillable. It was the fastest thing in the game with just enough shields to make it impossible for anything to one-shot it, so it was impossible to catch and kill, but had enough firepower to be a serious menace to shipping, as merchant cruisers are rather light on shielding, so even with a weaker broadside, they would still win.

I witnessed a squadron of 3 of these things in the hands of pirates laying total waste to a hapless AI empire, burning down 3 of its space ports and shooting down dozens of ships. Crazy, crazy, stuff. Never did that again.

Now that is quite a story. I'd love to see the save if you have one, but while this highlights an exception that we need to address, changing your entire playstyle to avoid this kind of rare occurrence (which I've never seen as well) still doesn't make sense to me.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 20

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 8:29:21 PM

Astorax

Posts: 188
Joined: 4/11/2010
Status: offline

I never make Escorts, Frigates or Destroyers because of the copy issue Fishman is talking about and just use modified Capital Ship designs. I don't arm my freighters, I just use my cap ships to destroy the Pirate Bases as soon as I find one.

Pirates are never a problem except in the very beginning, perhaps, and then you can just pay them off, save your mining base, THEN kill their base.

Edit- I actually never destroy their base until I get all the info I want from them. Very convenient to find out where the Independent Colonies are before eradicating all the pirates.

< Message edited by Astorax -- 5/5/2010 8:33:31 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 21

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/5/2010 11:52:46 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Astorax

I never make Escorts, Frigates or Destroyers because of the copy issue Fishman is talking about and just use modified Capital Ship designs. I don't arm my freighters, I just use my cap ships to destroy the Pirate Bases as soon as I find one.

Pirates are never a problem except in the very beginning, perhaps, and then you can just pay them off, save your mining base, THEN kill their base.

Edit- I actually never destroy their base until I get all the info I want from them. Very convenient to find out where the Independent Colonies are before eradicating all the pirates.

they really should use that info money in better base defense and ships instead of wasting it on girls and booze. but pirates are gona be pirates...

(in reply to Astorax)

Post #: 22

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/6/2010 10:27:30 AM

2guncohen

Posts: 401
Joined: 4/9/2010
From: Belguim
Status: offline

Oke i think i figured out the ships that i thought the private sector made => they are infact pirate ships i received after destroying a station. Seems they where automated to escort ?

(in reply to exelsiar)

Post #: 23

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/6/2010 11:35:45 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Astorax

Edit- I actually never destroy their base until I get all the info I want from them. Very convenient to find out where the Independent Colonies are before eradicating all the pirates.

Pirates actually have an infinite amount of info. It appears when you buy a special, if one does not actually exist, the game will MAKE one, so that they can tell you about it, just like when you find a ruin special info. This can result in the comical outcome of a lost "abandoned ship" spawning...right next to your colony.

(in reply to Astorax)

Post #: 24

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/6/2010 12:22:28 PM

sbach2o

Posts: 378
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Astorax

Edit- I actually never destroy their base until I get all the info I want from them. Very convenient to find out where the Independent Colonies are before eradicating all the pirates.
Pirates actually have an infinite amount of info. It appears when you buy a special, if one does not actually exist, the game will MAKE one, so that they can tell you about it, just like when you find a ruin special info. This can result in the comical outcome of a lost "abandoned ship" spawning...right next to your colony.

I can attest that the info eventually runs out. At least the stuff you can buy for 10000 credits. Then there are the data cores which can be found after destroying a pirate base. These look like they are independent of the purchaseable items and create their derelict ships.

The nice thing is that new pirate bases spawn after a time when the galaxy is short of whatever the game determines is the should-be level of piracy in the galaxy. I can only guess as to whether that level is constant or (as the help topics in Galactopedia suggests) declining with the development level in the galaxy, as my latest 1000 stars 1.0.3 game won't save any more when I play it a while (out of memory - now I know why saving is so slow, it serializes via XML). Anyway, it looks like the number of datacores or joined pirate factions you can gain over time is nearly limitless.

Because of that respawning of new pirate bases and there seems to be an enormous overlap between the information offered for sale, there is no point in letting a pirate base live longer than necessary, I think.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 25

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/6/2010 2:50:24 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

from what I can tell, as long as there are systems with at least one gas giant, or a cloud with a gas resource, and that system/cloud is not settled or has a base or is not under fog of war, then it's a valid location for a new pirate base to spawn. so following those rules it's simple to keep rats around or get them gone for good

the 10k info eventually runs out though, but free info from destroying bases seems to be unlimited

(in reply to sbach2o)

Post #: 26

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/7/2010 3:51:27 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

I can attest that the info eventually runs out. At least the stuff you can buy for 10000 credits.

It runs out? What does it say when it runs out? I have seen it spawn tons of stuff as I kept buying, although eventually I had too many things to check out and stopped buying, and hadn't run out yet.

(in reply to sbach2o)

Post #: 27

RE: Fighting off Pirates, just build more escorts? - 5/7/2010 7:35:41 AM

sbach2o

Posts: 378
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

I can attest that the info eventually runs out. At least the stuff you can buy for 10000 credits.
It runs out? What does it say when it runs out? I have seen it spawn tons of stuff as I kept buying, although eventually I had too many things to check out and stopped buying, and hadn't run out yet.

You simply don't get the option to buy information when the pirates don't have anything to offer. It may take a long while because probably any Ancient Ruins site not known to you may be sold, if I am not mistaken. After that, only destroyign their bases may reveal new stuff. This looks like it is spawned as needed.

Potential SPOILER:

For me, the exploration of a very special site revealing the complete galaxy map, among other things, was very helpful regarding getting the sites of all ruins so the pirates couldn't sell any of them. After that there are only ship graveyards, supply bases, outposts and the likes left. There was quite a number of those in my 1000 stars game.

Regarding the ship graveyards: You can check the 'adopted' designs of repaired derelict ships. All have a creation date that matches the start of the game. They were there from the start.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/7/2010 7:39:27 AM >

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 28