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AI Kills Me in GDP - GDP Screenshots Incl. - 5/8/2010 4:03:22 AM

jscott991

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I'm impressed with the AI's ability to generate money.

Despite the fact that I have more systems, colonies, and people than any AI empire in the game, I am 4th in GDP.

Is this explained by racial or government bonuses (I'm a human monarchy)?

Or am I not doing something that the AI is? This seems unlikely because most of my economy is on automate.

I have noticed that the private sector NEVER refits its ships. One would think this would increase GDP if you could replace a lot of the speed 7 freighters from the beginning of the game, with the speed 38 ships I can build now.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/12/2010 2:56:39 AM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 5:57:55 AM

Fishman

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I think it's just because you suck. :P What I see is the opposite: I rapidly outstrip the AI, and wallow in cash...until about the mid-lategame, when the corruption creep starts to really set in and by late-game, it has become unplayable because it is impossible to generate income anymore, as every planet starts to operate at a loss when all of its income disappears as you hit the 80-90% corruption range. Since it does not appear to ever cap, given that it can go that high, even if you dismantle everything, you will still have 0 income when it reaches 100% corruption. As there is nothing you can actually *DO* about this value, the game turns into a race to meet a victory condition and end it before the inevitable crunch.

(in reply to jscott991)

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 6:22:52 AM

lostsm

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AI beats me in GDP all the time also. I set them to much older empires so that helps them a lot, but trying to catch up to them in any short period of time isn't easy. i've had plenty of games where I get the 'you lost' screen because of an AI's economic victory

and some races just have a reproduction advantage, so they will see planets with 20B population much sooner if your race isn't as reproductive and that means they get the higher GDP much faster

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 6:34:20 AM

Xkill

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Corruption is a GRAVE, problem i think that the corruption would only have to apply if a completely developed colony are too far away, and of course if the Capital of that empire are too far.

quote:

[...]As every planet starts to operate at a loss when all of its income disappears as you hit the 80-90% corruption range. Since it does not appear to ever cap, given that it can go that high, even if you dismantle everything, you will still have 0 income when it reaches 100% corruption.

Possibly, before the corruption get to that level you would get completely destroyed as you have literaly waged war with everybody in the galaxy, even with your own empire (Rebeled Colonies,Revolutions,War Wearness,Etc,etc,etc.But if you are that unlucky, you will get dead up anyways by your OWN economy as the Corruption will eat EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF HARD WORKED CASH that you have.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 8:54:46 AM

Canute0

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And what race/Goverment you use do another big different.
My favoured race at 1.03 was Dhayut,Republic because of the Hyper-engine.

But at my first 1.04 game i notice i barley got money to do anything.
Now i playing Teekan with Mercantile Guild and money isn't a problem.

(in reply to Xkill)

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 10:54:01 AM

taltamir

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I noticed its always the securians who are swimming in cash. followed by the cute fuzzy race I think (not the cat like ones with the shields)

I think its race/government bonuses

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 12:54:36 PM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute

And what race/Goverment you use do another big different.
My favoured race at 1.03 was Dhayut,Republic because of the Hyper-engine.

Dhayut, Demo -> Ancients. Profitability was just fine, plenty of money early on. In the end, it doesn't matter what you are because corruption will -> 100%, which means your income is zero, and any percentage of zero remains zero.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 12:58:11 PM

Erik Rutins

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The race/government combo plays a huge role in how much money you can make.

Corruption is designed to cap, there should be strongly diminishing returns for very large empires, but you should never make less money by adding one more world than you did without it. Fishman, I'd appreciate looking at your save as I also tested corruption into the late game without any game-breaking results.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 2:41:26 PM

Fishman

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If it's designed to cap, perhaps you can say what the cap actually *IS*. Because as far as I can tell, the cap is 100%, the point at which no colony generates any income, which means the game is unplayable.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 3:18:50 PM

Shark7

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I have found you are much better off to let the AI run the economy. I had a game with 9 colonies two nights ago and was making around 250k in taxes every year. And this was with the largest, most powerful fleet in the known galaxy.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 3:23:38 PM

Cindar

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Unless/until you are able to conquer large population enemy homeworlds, 90% of your income is always going to come from your initial homeworld because it will contain most of your population. The key is to have your homeworld as well developed as is possible and make sure you are able to keep it at 50% taxes with 100% of the populace paying them. Having 100 colonies is useless if those colonies all have 1 million people each paying 5% taxes. I highly recommend using a monetary focused government for the entire game such as Democracy/Republic/Way of Ancients. These will improve colony income (= more money), reduce corruption (= more money), increase approval (= tax more = more money). Taking off some war weariness or increasing troop production from the other governments is completely irrelevant compared to being able to produce 30% more stuff.

I haven't had any problems as Dhayut in large empires with corruption, but I haven't continued into the ultimate rule-the-entire-galaxy game. At 180 Colonies I am making about 800,000 income and seem to top out at around 85-90% corruption for all my colonies. In this game I was able to conquer an AI homeworld that was weak (1 colony) and stupid (declare war on your neighbor with 15 colonies, will you?), managing to get 150k income a year after the start. After that the entire game pretty much consisted of me curbstomping every enemy.

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/8/2010 3:25:59 PM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 4:10:31 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The race/government combo plays a huge role in how much money you can make.

Corruption is designed to cap, there should be strongly diminishing returns for very large empires, but you should never make less money by adding one more world than you did without it. Fishman, I'd appreciate looking at your save as I also tested corruption into the late game without any game-breaking results.

If Fishman is right, then this confirms my initial feelings about using corruption. We need a slider or a way to turn this value down.

I'm a pretty big empire at the moment (almost 200 colonies) and I'm having trouble keeping my economy out of the red.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 4:19:05 PM

Cindar

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If you are using bad government types its no wonder your are having problems staying afloat. There is a reason why no large Despotism/Monarchy/Military Dictatorships exist today, its because their system of government is inherently hard to scale. Once you get 100 colonies that span across the galaxy, people start to wonder exactly what is so holy and special about your monarchy's king when he is just one of a trillion people.

If I change my government type to one of the weaker ones, I lose about 30 colonies and my economy drops down to 10% of the former profit lol.

What's your economy summary screen look like and what racial benefits do you have?

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/8/2010 4:20:11 PM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 4:20:32 PM

Xkill

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I think, that if you want to get out of the red without cheating just edit the races and put the "Colony Income" table to 15/30 this will, (I hope so) keep corruption on effect but you will still get some money and it wont go to your advisors pants.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 5:11:10 PM

jscott991

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Your republicanism aside, monarchy is not a bad government in DW. It's quite balanced actually.

I wonder if the AI isn't getting a break on corruption.

In fact, if they were, that would explain an awful lot and it would put DW in line with other Matrix games that have a great fondness for AI cheating.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 6:05:54 PM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I'm a pretty big empire at the moment (almost 200 colonies) and I'm having trouble keeping my economy out of the red.

200 seems to be the point at which the returns start to go bad, at least if you're following my expansion curve. However, it doesn't seem to be strongly colony-related, since the numbers continue to increase even in the absence of any new colonization.

And 85-90% corruption across all colonies is INSANE. At that point, 200 colonies pays the equivalent of *20* colonies, meaning that any given colony is actually negative value added! You'd have problems even maintaining your own FREIGHTERS at that point, and you can't exactly tell the AI to stop building the damn things.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/8/2010 6:06:34 PM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 6:40:37 PM

Cindar

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If you are having problems you should really post some pictures of the ingame economy summary screen. I can't tell what we are doing different unless you do this, and I'm sitting on a 10 million credit fortune atm.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 6:42:12 PM

Fishman

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I had that kind of fortune, too. But the thing is, after a certain point, it starts to rapidly evaporate as the colonial efficiency drops to near nil, even if you do nothing. It's very easy to get a fortune early on, but eventually crippling corruption will bring down anyone regardless of bonii or government, simply because 100% corruption = 0 income.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/8/2010 6:43:17 PM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 7:23:50 PM

Erik Rutins

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Upload a save please, I've said several times that corruption, on its own should not be sending your economy into the red at high numbers of colonies. If it is, then there's a bug in the implementation. It sounds like it's working fine for anything but the most huge empires. This is not a conceptual issue but rather one of implementation if these reports are correct as to the cause of the economic issues. We would need a save to confirm that.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 8:00:07 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Upload a save please, I've said several times that corruption, on its own should not be sending your economy into the red at high numbers of colonies. If it is, then there's a bug in the implementation. It sounds like it's working fine for anything but the most huge empires. This is not a conceptual issue but rather one of implementation if these reports are correct as to the cause of the economic issues. We would need a save to confirm that.

I didn't realize that corruption effected every colony. If Fishman is correct, then how could corruption NOT send your economy into the red as you get bigger?

If adding colonies reduces the efficiency of your earlier colonies, then of course corruption is going to reduce your economic output. Early colonies produce tons of money; later founded ones produce next to nothing. So if corruption goes from 89 to 90% by founding a new colony, then your economy will suffer from expansion.

It was completely ridiculous to use this kind of a global value to slow economic growth. It was easy to see that this would happen.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 8:16:15 PM

Bartje

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He said it was supposed to be capped;

ergo: It's safe to assume that its not supposed to drain your complete income away.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 8:18:22 PM

vils

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An option to disable corruption alltogheter would be nice, perhaps as an option during the galaxy setup phase pre-game..

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 10:19:39 PM

Dadekster

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I don't know much about the whole corruption issue, have never noticed it tbh, but even when I am the largest empire I am rarely in 1st for GDP. I do everything myself except set taxes and run 1.04 with humans as a republic or monarchy. I generally build what the AI recommends but sometimes I will interject my own builds depending on what I think I might need down the road.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/8/2010 11:42:15 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

He said it was supposed to be capped;

ergo: It's safe to assume that its not supposed to drain your complete income away.

just because its capped doesn't mean the economy would not get worse... goning from corruption of 50% to a cap of 60% by building more colonies might not bankrupt you, but it CAN result in more colonies = less money (but it doesn't have to, it just depends on whether a 10% increase in corruption is caused by more or by less of 10% increase in number of colonies... and the exact size and development of said colonies).
After it reaches the cap, further growth will result in linear increases to your wealth. (of a lower slope then original growth, but still linear)... where each colony adds an equal amount... so you have a curve with dips with times where it goes up and times where it goes down.
There are far too many variables (colony quality, population amount, development amount, exact ratios, etc) for it to be "safe" to implement on a per colony approach. It should be per tax income bracket and only affect income of the bracket.

that being said, I am typically so stinking rich I don't even notice corruption... so maybe you should upload your saves where you are going bankrupt. If anything, I am guessing that you are encountering other issues. Such as the accidental retiring of all gas mining stations (due to a bug in the retrofit code for gas mining stations) resulting in you massive empire having 0 fuel sources. Causing prices of ships to skyrocket and bankrupting you private sector which bankrupts your state.
Aka, its most likely a bug and potentially not even caused by corruption... so upload such saves.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/8/2010 11:46:02 PM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 1:36:17 AM

Erik Rutins

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Just to nip another bit of speculation in the bud, the AI does not get any advantages on corruption, it works the same way for the AI as it does for you.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 1:40:54 AM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just to nip another bit of speculation in the bud, the AI does not get any advantages on corruption, it works the same way for the AI as it does for you.

That's a relief. At least he is getting just as screwed as I am.

But I still don't understand some things you said earlier.

If adding a new colony increases empire-wide corruption that means that expansion is costing an empire money.

A new colony earns basically zero and if it adds to corruption on older colonies, how doesn't that reduce economic output?

Something is jacking up the corruption on my core worlds and that makes the end game (say 60-70 years in and 200 or so colonies) a quagmire that is no fun.

Corruption is functioning as a clock. Its forcing you to end the game by X date or basically have an unplayable empire that can't be rescued. It needs to go.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/9/2010 2:06:51 AM >

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 2:16:22 AM

Cindar

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Does the corruption scale based on colony numbers? Or is it something else like GDP or population? I imagine that if what Erik says is true about adding another world never causing you to make less money that it would be a sliding scale based on your GDP or Tar Revenue or something.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 2:20:10 AM

Erik Rutins

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As I understand it, corruption scales based on your total population and the number of systems globally, as well as the population of each planet locally, as well as the distance of each planet from the capitol system (this acts as a local corruption modifier).

I will say again that the idea that corruption should drive large empires into negative income or reach 100% for colonies is not correct, that's not the concept or the intention. I'm looking forward to seeing some save files so that we can see what's going wrong there, but it sounds like in some cases for very large empires there may be a bug in corruption scaling.

I have not seen this myself in late game tests, but it may be that I didn't hit quite as many colonies as those reporting here.

I would appreciate if this potential bug were not assumed to be the intended design.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 2:23:02 AM

jscott991

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And I would appreciate it if corruption weren't in the game to begin with or could be turned off.

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RE: AI Kills Me in GDP - 5/9/2010 3:21:56 AM

Rustyallan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As I understand it, corruption scales based on your total population and the number of systems globally, as well as the population of each planet locally, as well as the distance of each planet from the capitol system (this acts as a local corruption modifier).

I will say again that the idea that corruption should drive large empires into negative income or reach 100% for colonies is not correct, that's not the concept or the intention. I'm looking forward to seeing some save files so that we can see what's going wrong there, but it sounds like in some cases for very large empires there may be a bug in corruption scaling.

I have not seen this myself in late game tests, but it may be that I didn't hit quite as many colonies as those reporting here.

I would appreciate if this potential bug were not assumed to be the intended design.

Erik, thanks for that bit of info on how it's supposed to work. I know we've all been wondering about that. I'm working on a savegame where I'm trying to expand and drive the corruption as high as I can. One quirk I noticed in skimming the colony list is that while my home colony is at 55% corruption, I have other colonies a couple sectors away that are at 43-48%... a couple more sectors and it jumps to 78%+ and then on the other side of the galaxy, my new colonies are in the 65-68% range. I'd say this shows that distance from the capitol may be a small modifier indeed.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

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