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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons

 
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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 5:20:12 AM   
Fishman

 

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Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Its good vs the WEAKEST weapon in the entire game... thats not good.
You'd be surprised how long the service life on Maxos Blasters is, though. Damn things are used forever, either in its original form, or its slightly enhanced "SL" form.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

It is considered higher tech then shields which are nearly 4 times better than it (Based on mathematical modelling of time to failure based on both total absorption and recharge rate)
It's obvious that it is misplaced on the tech tree and not a serious contender in the late-game. However, it is CLEARLY superior to ANY of the early shields by FAR.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 61
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 5:22:57 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

You'd be surprised how long the service life on Maxos Blasters is, though. Damn things are used forever, either in its original form, or its slightly enhanced "SL" form.

The moment you have a torpedo they are all obsolete.

quote:

It's obvious that it is misplaced on the tech tree and not a serious contender in the late-game. However, it is CLEARLY superior to ANY of the early shields by FAR.


Not by FAR, but it is clearly superior to early shields. I agree that it is misplaced, and I never claimed it was the worst shield.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 62
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 11:12:07 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore


Actually they would because many of us don't like using 3rd party mods as many don't really test their modifications they just throw crap at the mod download page and let god sort them out and us having to be the guinea pigs for them.

(in reply to lostsm)
Post #: 63
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 3:18:16 PM   
AMF

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 3/31/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns


quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore


Actually they would because many of us don't like using 3rd party mods as many don't really test their modifications they just throw crap at the mod download page and let god sort them out and us having to be the guinea pigs for them.


In my experience, this is not true at all. Again, I keep returning to SE4 as an example of how a almost completely moddable game led to a robust modding community and then a bunch of very high quality, and constantly improving, mod sets. There were mods for every flavor and the community was active enough to keep improving them to the point where they were fantastic. I still think back fondly on the star trek mod, the proportions mod, and others that were nearly perfect due to the competitive nature of modders and the feedback they got from the players. And I think that it was only becuase of all the mods that SE4 stayed around for so long. Lots of people still to this day play it even after it's been out, what over ten years maybe... Seriously, the more a game can be modded, the more any and all aspects of a game can be modded, the better it will be and the more people it will appeal to. If Matrix allows this, it would likely make DW not only a fantastic game, but make it *the* 4X game for the next decade.

Just my two cents, on my soapbox. I'll shut up now.

(in reply to MajFrankBurns)
Post #: 64
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 3:26:26 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Be assured that we are interested in improving the mod support - it's not a matter of whether we want to do it, it's just been a matter of time and other overriding priorities.

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Post #: 65
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 4:37:00 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AMF


quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns


quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore


Actually they would because many of us don't like using 3rd party mods as many don't really test their modifications they just throw crap at the mod download page and let god sort them out and us having to be the guinea pigs for them.


In my experience, this is not true at all. Again, I keep returning to SE4 as an example of how a almost completely moddable game led to a robust modding community and then a bunch of very high quality, and constantly improving, mod sets. There were mods for every flavor and the community was active enough to keep improving them to the point where they were fantastic. I still think back fondly on the star trek mod, the proportions mod, and others that were nearly perfect due to the competitive nature of modders and the feedback they got from the players. And I think that it was only becuase of all the mods that SE4 stayed around for so long. Lots of people still to this day play it even after it's been out, what over ten years maybe... Seriously, the more a game can be modded, the more any and all aspects of a game can be modded, the better it will be and the more people it will appeal to. If Matrix allows this, it would likely make DW not only a fantastic game, but make it *the* 4X game for the next decade.

Just my two cents, on my soapbox. I'll shut up now.


Modding is always a plus, though you will get a few rotten apples in every bushel. The thing is, if a mod stinks, you can uninstall it. And they definately make bad games decent, and keep great games playable and alive for years after they should have faded away.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to AMF)
Post #: 66
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 6:44:08 PM   
frugaldude

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline 		I will have no problem with mods as long as they exist in the realm of "Themes" and not in the game itself.  Of course modification by way of themes needs expansion.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 67
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 7:49:51 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		Well, as of 1.0.4 release, super weapons are entirely worthless, since they can't even be used to fill the one-weapon rule, and indeed, weapons on merchant ships are entirely worthless because you can't actually set orders to USE them properly, so they won't. But there's a silver lining to it yet! I changed my design: Instead of designing merchant ships that are well defended and quick, I stripped them of EVERYTHING so that they are now cheap, worthless, and have absolutely zero survivability, especially since I use wave blasters on the base and actively attempt to slag as many of them as possible for their worthless, contemptible cowardice. But the best part? Now when I slag them, they have to buy new ones! And since they have ZERO SURVIVABILITY, having not a single piece of armor or shielding, they shortly die, and they have to buy some new ones. Cha-ching! The Space Port business is now booming.

(in reply to frugaldude)
Post #: 68
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 11:30:21 AM   
Tacit_Exit


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		I think the private sector may need to be programmed to go on strike under certain conditions

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 69
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 11:32:30 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tacit_Exit

I think the private sector may need to be programmed to go on strike under certain conditions


There are always strikes here and there, they do not bother the overall function of the empire...
Recall that the private sector is EVERYTHING not owned by the government.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Tacit_Exit)
Post #: 70
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 11:37:25 AM   
Tacit_Exit


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Clarification: By strike I mean general strike of the private shipping, by 'certain conditions' I mean Fishman

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 71
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 12:01:01 PM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tacit_Exit

I think the private sector may need to be programmed to go on strike under certain conditions
Hey, it's not my fault my prized merchant marine got nerfed and replaced by a bunch of drooling retards utterly unfit for service. Previously I had kitted them in only the finest hardware intended to maximize their survival in even the most horrible situations imagineable, with a detailed instruction manual on how to use that hardware to maximum effect.

Now not only am I not allowed to give them the hardware they need, I'm not even allowed to give them the MANUAL for the hardware they HAVE! Solution: Don't bother giving them anything, they won't ever figure out how to use it properly anyway. Even my original plan of "equip them with over 9000 shields and tell them to just drive through" is a wash.

A general strike would be all the incentive I need to nationalize them for the new People's Democratic Republic.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/7/2010 12:03:18 PM >

(in reply to Tacit_Exit)
Post #: 72
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 12:10:31 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline 		The People's Free Democratic Capitalism Republic of Utopialand.

I am so making a totalitarian government with this name the next time I am playing distant worlds.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/7/2010 12:13:40 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 73
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 1:53:35 PM   
2guncohen


Posts: 401
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From: Belguim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The People's Free Democratic Capitalism Republic of Utopialand.

I am so making a totalitarian government with this name the next time I am playing distant worlds.


I already went for a military dictature in my game.
1 tip : tax never more then 15% on your capital world ...

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 74
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 4:50:30 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2guncohen

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The People's Free Democratic Capitalism Republic of Utopialand.

I am so making a totalitarian government with this name the next time I am playing distant worlds.


I already went for a military dictature in my game.
1 tip : tax never more then 15% on your capital world ...



They hate taxes eh?

I found that the trick to managing a democracy in constant war is to build a small space port in every single colony.
That prevents them from rebelling when you are at war with their race (penalty for war in general via war weariness plus extra penalty for being at war with their race)

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to 2guncohen)
Post #: 75
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 5:43:52 PM   
Xkill

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline 		I have readed what your have posted here but i have (at least i think) solution to this:

Try to see the scene this way: you have a cruiser, with the Devastator Pulse and suddently apears 6 frigates, and then your captain says: Shileds up red alert!!.And on the other side it happens the same but they don't know that you have a Devastator Pulse,you fire it and destroy 5 frigates, and the last have his shields destroyed and can't go to hyperspace because it are destroyed too and to finish him you only fire to times your blaster.

But your pulse have already destroyed the five ones.And it have got you an outstanding victory againt you enemy!So the battle gets very very easy.

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 76
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 6:05:03 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xkill

I have readed what your have posted here but i have (at least i think) solution to this:

Try to see the scene this way: you have a cruiser, with the Devastator Pulse and suddently apears 6 frigates, and then your captain says: Shileds up red alert!!.And on the other side it happens the same but they don't know that you have a Devastator Pulse,you fire it and destroy 5 frigates, and the last have his shields destroyed and can't go to hyperspace because it are destroyed too and to finish him you only fire to times your blaster.

But your pulse have already destroyed the five ones.And it have got you an outstanding victory againt you enemy!So the battle gets very very easy.


1. The "story" is nice but unrelated to the actual game. Your shields are always on, and you fire all weapons right away.
2. You are not going to destroy anything with devastater pulses... they are not devastating enough to overcome decent shields.
3. 5 frigates are a joke, you don't need the pulse for them.

And the most important reason of all:
4. For the space of one devastator pulse you can fit 18.9 Derasian Shockwave WSD-230. Which are regular old pulse weapons (colored blue instead of red).
This would give you MUCH higher initial damage then the pulse, destroying more ships. And it will give you much higher DPS...
how much higher? you would get a DPS of 507.6 with many regular pulse area effect weapons and a DPS of 75 with the Devastator pulse.
You would get an initial shot damage of 4061.1 with the regular pulse area effect weapons vs 900 on the Devastator pulse.

And it will cost less per point of damage, and consume less energy per point of damage.

So while your captain yells "fire the pulse" and destroys 5 frigates in one shot with his devastator pulse (dealing 900 damage to each).
My captain yells "fire the pulses" (not the plural) and destroys 5 cruisers withs his (dealing 4061.1 damage to each).

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/7/2010 6:09:28 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Xkill)
Post #: 77
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 6:23:09 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline 		delete

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/7/2010 6:24:05 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Wicky)
Post #: 78
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 6:34:34 PM   
Xkill

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline
quote:

1. The "story" is nice but unrelated to the actual game. Your shields are always on, and you fire all weapons right away.


1:As far as i know your shield arent always "on" they only get "on" when you engage in battle.

quote:

2. You are not going to destroy anything with devastater pulses... they are not devastating enough to overcome decent shields.


2:Unless you are very certain of victory you arent going to send one ship againt multiple ones.And even the Megatron Z4 that are a super shield goes down like anything else.

quote:

3. 5 frigates are a joke, you don't need the pulse for them.


3:One fleet usualy don't use 5 frigates you can expect more like cruiser or destroyers.

quote:

4. For the space of one devastator pulse you can fit 18.9 Derasian Shockwave WSD-230. Which are regular old pulse weapons (colored blue instead of red).
This would give you MUCH higher initial damage then the pulse, destroying more ships. And it will give you much higher DPS...
how much higher? you would get a DPS of 507.6 with many regular pulse area effect weapons and a DPS of 75 with the Devastator pulse.
You would get an initial shot damage of 4061.1 with the regular pulse area effect weapons vs 900 on the Devastator pulse.


4:If you put the same amount of Devastator Pulses (Wish i think its impossible) you can destroy 5 cruisers,destroyer, and possibly frigates with only one shot.Also no one will put 18.9 pulses in one ship, there will be other componets that affect several things like:Speed,Agility,Size,Etc,Etc,Etc.

quote:

So while your captain yells "fire the pulse" and destroys 5 frigates in one shot with his devastator pulse (dealing 900 damage to each).
My captain yells "fire the pulses" (not the plural) and destroys 5 cruisers withs his (dealing 4061.1 damage to each).


Maybe if you are very lucky you will find other weapons like the Death Ray.And you will say:Fire the pulses and rays and inflict much more damage.

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 79
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 9:10:37 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

1:As far as i know your shield arent always "on" they only get "on" when you engage in battle.

Explain how they charge outside of battle then? or why they consume static amount of power outside of battle or in it?

quote:

2:Unless you are very certain of victory you arent going to send one ship againt multiple ones.And even the Megatron Z4 that are a super shield goes down like anything else.

Actually I have mathematically proven that megatron Z4 is one of the crappiest shields in the game. The best shields in the game start out being 3.8 times better (duration to falling of 1 shield vs 1 torpedo) and the ratio only improve as you increase the amount of shields OR increase the amount of weapons firing on them.
The one exception is if you have waaaaaay more shields than weapons (a minimum of 36 megatron Z4 shields PER each torpedo weapon firing at you... so vs a 10 torpedo ship you need 360 shields) then the megatron Z4 require slightly less shields per torpedo to not fall.

quote:

3:One fleet usualy don't use 5 frigates you can expect more like cruiser or destroyers.

Which proves MY point not yours... A cruiser would not be destroyed by a shot of the devastator pulse. That is why I said that 5 frigates are a joke.

quote:

4:If you put the same amount of Devastator Pulses (Wish i think its impossible) you can destroy 5 cruisers,destroyer, and possibly frigates with only one shot.Also no one will put 18.9 pulses in one ship, there will be other componets that affect several things like:Speed,Agility,Size,Etc,Etc,Etc.


But you CAN'T put that many devastator pulses on a ship, because each one takes 170 space and costs 3840 credits.
18 x Derasian Shockwave WSD-23 (a mundane pulse) take 162 space and cost 3024.
19 x Derasian Shockwave WSD-23 (a mundane pulse) take 171 space and cost 3192.
What part of preschool algebra do you fail to grasp?

Anyone who puts even ONE SINGLE devastator pulse on a ship instead of putting 18-19 regular pulse weapons on the same ship knowing you can put 19 regular pulses on it for the same amount of space and less money is a moron.
And to compare 19 Devastator pulses (13300 initial damage, 3230 space requirement, 72960 cost) to 19 regular pulses is retarded.

quote:

Maybe if you are very lucky you will find other weapons like the Death Ray.And you will say:Fire the pulses and rays and inflict much more damage.

No, because I have mathematically proven the death ray ALSO sucks.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/7/2010 9:17:34 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Xkill)
Post #: 80
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 10:33:31 PM   
Xkill

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline 		So the point is the Super weapons serve for you to go to the bathroom do a and then throw at that suck "Super Weapons".

So if these weapons are that weak so why the developers don't delete them and put more casual weapons?

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 81
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 10:59:14 PM   
Rustyallan

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:


So if these weapons are that weak so why the developers don't delete them and put more casual weapons?


The point of this thread was to bring the problem to their attention. They were designed with tradeoffs that make them supposedly better, but it's just not working out that way as far as the players are concerned.

You can certainly say the Death Star's main beam has low DPS, but when it hits a ship (or planet), that ship is GONE.

But that one beam takes a lot of space/power which could be put to better use with smaller weapons that produce greater overall DPS.

(in reply to Xkill)
Post #: 82
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/7/2010 11:06:42 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xkill

So the point is the Super weapons serve for you to go to the bathroom do a and then throw at that suck "Super Weapons".

So if these weapons are that weak so why the developers don't delete them and put more casual weapons?


They most likely only compared absolute damage (by itself) and then invented values for everything else with what "felt" right. they did not actually calculate initial salvo damage per space unit, initial salvo per money unit, initial salvo per energy unit, DPS per space unit, DPS per money unit, and DPS per energy unit. Most likely an unintended oversight.
The reason I believe that is what happened is because a ships "firepower" is simply the sum of the damage per single shot of all its weapons. (it should be the sum of the DPS of all its weapons)
Not only is DPS (per unit of cost in space, energy, or money) significantly more important then initial salvo damage (since shields are cheap and powerful enough so that an initial salvo is extremely unlikely to one shot a ship), initial salvo should ALSO be taken in terms of cost (in space, energy, or money) if you measure it...
Since there is no limit on how many weapons you may place on a ship...

If there was a hard limit of only 5 weapons per ship or some such, then a weapon with inferior values of all of the above would have superior "overall DPS per weapon component" (since weapon component is now limited to 5, it has become a measurable cost...) as of right now, you can have an infinite amount of weapon components, meaning that it is not a measurable cost. Only measurable costs are energy (just build more reactors; but that does take a little bit of space), space (most important! slows down your speed, and there is a hard limit on how big you can go), and money (can only afford so many ships).

The second reply to this thread is by Erik, a developer. And he said they will take a look at weapon balance at v1.0.5

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/7/2010 11:08:42 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 83
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/8/2010 6:05:19 AM   
Axefire

 

Posts: 15
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Explain how they charge outside of battle then? or why they consume static amount of power outside of battle or in it?


Where do I see how much static energy usage or whatever energy the shields use? The shield descriptions on the design window does not show it.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 84
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