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Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 2:37:55 AM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

I have got this REVOLUTIONARY idea when i was playing another space game... but let's go to the point:

What you guys think of a mode (Like the Ship Design Screen) where you can make you own COMPONENTS? Like i want to build a shield to take care of some pirates and then you just go to the Component design screen and create your own Shield,Armor,Sensor,Engine,Trust Vector Engine,Etc.And later design your ship with the components you have just created!

This could give the game much more freedom, because you build your "OWN SHIP".And also you have to get some tech to build better and better Components, and by doing so not making the game very easy.

Also i think the economy could be a little more easy.Also this comment have been put in the "Master Wishlist" thread (only if that thread are outdated).

Thanks for reading.

Xkd

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

Post #: 1

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 4:21:18 AM

lordxorn

Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
Status: offline

Balance would be the biggest issue, and are you referring to Beyond Protocol?

One game where it had a system similar to the one you are describing is Master Of Magic where you can create your own enchanted items.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Star Wars Mod

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 2

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 6:24:32 AM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

Never heard about both of the games,but balance don't be a problem from my point of view,because you will have to research your designed items, and the AI would also make items for its ships too so for every component you make the AI will do so too if the need arises.

Also you would need to research specific fields to design the components.And diplomacy would get enhanced too because everybody (will or not) give designed components to other players.(Both human and AI)

Also thanks for replying and giving you opinion.

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to lordxorn)

Post #: 3

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 6:58:59 PM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

I just saw the size of my savegames triple at the thought of this... *ugh* it's 90MB as-is.

I love the concept and actually have been designing a game with component design as a central part, but the data tracking can get rather massive very quickly.

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 4

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 7:03:31 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

Perhaps if components were limited to say: 50 templates

meaning you can standardize but never exceed more than 50 custom components. ?

Its a good idea but I think it's quite a stretch to do at the moment. Especially sinds the AI needs to understand it too.

Would this not simply result in picking the most advanced parts btw?

That would seem like a somewhat futile excercise.

How do you imagine this?

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 5

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 7:58:22 PM

HsojVvad

Posts: 1036
Joined: 3/24/2010
Status: offline

I don't get it. You mean you want to make your own engines? Own lasers and shields? Why? So for example you want to make a 20 point damage laser, you make it yourself? How would this work? I am just not shure what you mean. Also someone mentioned about a 50 cap limit. I don't like limits, I love that in DW you can build any ship as big or as small as you want. The only limit is how big your construction yards can build.

So I don't get the components or cap limit you guys mean.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 6

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 7:59:40 PM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

I have searched the game Beyond Protocol today and seen that it has almost the same system that i was saying!

Looks like somebody in the world think the same way as me...

But in response to Rustyallan, i think that the developers (if they enable the feature) can limit the design to what? 25 templates that you can delete to put others or edit the existing ones.

Also in response Bartje, i know that it could get a very big size but theres a game that uses your designs and it is called Spore, and it allow you to use your own designs of creatures, vehicles, structures, etc.I know that the AI would need some exercise but the it are also quite advanced in the way it are now and would only need some editing.

quote:

Its a good idea but I think it's quite a stretch to do at the moment. Especially sinds the AI needs to understand it too.

Would this not simply result in picking the most advanced parts btw?

That would seem like a somewhat futile excercise.

How do you imagine this?

I imagine this as a new era of designs for a "2D" 4X Space Game Like Distant Worlds of course, where you make what you whant and use what you whant.The game are a little bit buggy and have many crashes and this could make many more, but just think the new possibilities that you could have...

Also you could make new SUPER WEAPONS that are really SUPER WEAPONS not just a space eater.

But i still in some way a little bit primitive because i don't know how to make this work and how to make it "useable" and user-friendly. But i have some ideas like this:

You a gamer like any other opens you game load a game that you have saved or make a new one and some piretes attack you but your ship components where usseless against them and in the exact time that you press you mouse on the Component Desing Screen you find a "New World" of desing where you use the techs that you have alredy researched to build more components, like a "Corruption Reducer Sensor" wich reduces the corruption level by 5 or 10% on its range, or a "Laser" blaster that are red,yellow,have high damage and less DPS or low damage and high DPS.And factor could act as follows:

If you are designing a weapon like a Blaster, it tend to have more "Rate of Fire" and less damage, but you can edit the weapon and put it with high damage but would costs some size as well.

Or if you want to design a Long Range Sensor and want it to use less energy you just modify its energy consumption, but it could cost some range and less size.

So as i wiew the options are endless.Also if some developers that can change the game could put hardpoins and weapon arcs to give a more realistic ship design and this would be AWESOME!

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 7

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 8:29:07 PM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

Spore was such a disappointment that I took a shotgun to all the braincells that held memories of it.
Horrible game. Humongous potential... completely and utterly wasted... Now I know how teachers feel... rock-paper-scissors...UGH!

Thanks for reminding me... I never did uninstall the dang thing since it had limited number of installs and I might potentially want to play it again someday... Actually it was so bad I didn't want to think about it so I forgot to uninstall.

Yes, you could use designs, but they really didn't mean anything. DW has better control over ship designs.

I might have to look at Beyond Protocol to see what they're doing and get an idea of what you're talking about, because my concept of component design is very data-intensive.

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 8

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 8:31:41 PM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

quote:

I don't get it. You mean you want to make your own engines? Own lasers and shields? Why? So for example you want to make a 20 point damage laser, you make it yourself? How would this work? I am just not shure what you mean. Also someone mentioned about a 50 cap limit. I don't like limits, I love that in DW you can build any ship as big or as small as you want. The only limit is how big your construction yards can build.

It is almost that system that you are saying but a bit more diferent...But in response to that i would love to make my own components to get more freedom of design and diplomacy too.

quote:

I am just not shure what you mean. Also someone mentioned about a 50 cap limit. I don't like limits, I love that in DW you can build any ship as big or as small as you want. The only limit is how big your construction yards can build.

I don't like limits too but looks like it could make the game a little bit big, something about 6Gigs...just kidding

it don't get very big, just a little bit. And what i mean are that you build you own "game" by making designs of almost everything that the game uses.Also MODS could be easy to make because everybody can make his own MOD without needing to know programing and juts build and post here or in other forums.

Also you questioned how it would work,in this moment i'm not very sure but it would be like this:

General Information

Type:Torpedo
Cost: _36_
Size: _8_

(Picture)
(Projectile Picture)

Atributes

Damage: _100_ (only for weapons)
Rate Of Fire: _8.00_ (Or Whatever you call it.Only for comps that use it)
Range: _320_
Static Energy Comsumition: _1_
Energy Consupmition: _0_

Weapons Resource Guide (to see what resourcess it will need)

Steel: 6
Carbon Fibre: 2
Nekros Stone: 4

This is what i see now. I will think more about it and post what i think here until one developer goes here and say something (Bad or Good. I hope Good)

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 9

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/9/2010 8:34:33 PM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

So say it to us i want to see your opinion.

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 10

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 1:58:12 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

As far as research and design goes, I've always favored a bell curve method or diminishing returns versus advancing to a new componant.

Imagine this:

All of the components are available from the start at a base level. You can set a research level for each component, meaning you can specialize in one type while neglecting another. Now at each 'advance level' the component becomes a % more effective. As the component gets more advanced, you are slowed by the exponential research point requirements to advance to the next level.

Take a simple laser:

Laser base damage is 100. After spending X number of Research points you get to 101 damage. And to get to 102 Damage might be X*2 RPs or some such.

A possible formula would be (Current stat level * .5)*(Current stat level * .5)* 1000 = RP requirement for advancement. In this way the cost goes up exponentially.

In this example to get to 101 your cost is 2.5 million RPs. (100*.5)*(100*.*)*1000= 2,500,000. To go from 101 to 102, the cost is 2,550,250. From 102 to 103 costs 2,601,000. The more powerful the gun, the more it costs, but it is also open ended. You can continue to improve as long as you sink research funds into it. And to get from 199 to 200, the cost is 9,900,250 which is is a nearly 400% increase in required RP versus the 200% result increase.

The thing about this is, while you are increasing your laser, you enemy is increasing his shield and armor...so it balances out since the costs will be relatively the same and the projects will take about the same amount of time.

The problem comes with stuff like ECM and targeting computers, and damage control These may have to have a cap or they need to be set up on a different formula for resolution. Alternatively, these items could use an even more agressive formula to really slow the rate of any possible gains to keep them from out pacing the weapons and shields.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 11

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 2:13:25 AM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

I've always liked using a Fibonacci sequence for tech levels... The first I ever saw that was in Stars! and boy did that provide a steep curve near the end of the tree.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 12

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 2:15:17 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

I've always liked using a Fibonacci sequence for tech levels...� The first I ever saw that was in Stars! and boy did that provide a steep curve near the end of the tree.

Guess I'm not familiar with the Fibonacci Sequence (or at least not the term). Can you explain?

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 13

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 2:40:21 AM

Rustyallan

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline

Google it...

By definition, the first two Fibonacci numbers are 0 and 1, and each remaining number is the sum of the previous two. Some sources omit the initial 0, instead beginning the sequence with two 1s.

This leads to a steep increase pretty quickly.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 14

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 2:45:48 AM

Xkill

Posts: 107
Joined: 5/7/2010
From: Brazil
Status: offline

quote:

Original: Shark7

As far as research and design goes, I've always favored a bell curve method or diminishing returns versus advancing to a new componant.

Imagine this:

All of the components are available from the start at a base level. You can set a research level for each component, meaning you can specialize in one type while neglecting another. Now at each 'advance level' the component becomes a % more effective. As the component gets more advanced, you are slowed by the exponential research point requirements to advance to the next level.

Take a simple laser:

Laser base damage is 100. After spending X number of Research points you get to 101 damage. And to get to 102 Damage might be X*2 RPs or some such.

A possible formula would be (Current stat level * .5)*(Current stat level * .5)* 1000 = RP requirement for advancement. In this way the cost goes up exponentially.

In this example to get to 101 your cost is 2.5 million RPs. (100*.5)*(100*.*)*1000= 2,500,000. To go from 101 to 102, the cost is 2,550,250. From 102 to 103 costs 2,601,000. The more powerful the gun, the more it costs, but it is also open ended. You can continue to improve as long as you sink research funds into it. And to get from 199 to 200, the cost is 9,900,250 which is is a nearly 400% increase in required RP versus the 200% result increase.

The thing about this is, while you are increasing your laser, you enemy is increasing his shield and armor...so it balances out since the costs will be relatively the same and the projects will take about the same amount of time.

The problem comes with stuff like ECM and targeting computers, and damage control These may have to have a cap or they need to be set up on a different formula for resolution. Alternatively, these items could use an even more agressive formula to really slow the rate of any possible gains to keep them from out pacing the weapons and shields.

Man...you are my hero!! Also thanks for giving you opinion,thanks too for giving me more understanding of that, it was a "beta release" for me and i didn't know what to do if Erik or Elliot or another person got here to question about it, but you gave me the solution! Also that idea of RP is good but you havent specified well i want to know if you think too about my other idea that you probably seen:

quote:

Original: (ME)

quote:

I don't get it. You mean you want to make your own engines? Own lasers and shields? Why? So for example you want to make a 20 point damage laser, you make it yourself? How would this work? I am just not shure what you mean. Also someone mentioned about a 50 cap limit. I don't like limits, I love that in DW you can build any ship as big or as small as you want. The only limit is how big your construction yards can build.

It is almost that system that you are saying but a bit more diferent...But in response to that i would love to make my own components to get more freedom of design and diplomacy too.

quote:

I am just not shure what you mean. Also someone mentioned about a 50 cap limit. I don't like limits, I love that in DW you can build any ship as big or as small as you want. The only limit is how big your construction yards can build.

I don't like limits too but looks like it could make the game a little bit big, something about 6Gigs...just kidding it don't get very big, just a little bit. And what i mean are that you build you own "game" by making designs of almost everything that the game uses.Also MODS could be easy to make because everybody can make his own MOD without needing to know programing and juts build and post here or in other forums.

Also you questioned how it would work,in this moment i'm not very sure but it would be like this:

General Information

Type:Torpedo
Cost: _36_
Size: _8_

(Picture)
(Projectile Picture)

Atributes

Damage: _100_ (only for weapons)
Rate Of Fire: _8.00_ (Or Whatever you call it.Only for comps that use it)
Range: _320_
Static Energy Comsumition: _1_
Energy Consupmition: _0_

Weapons Resource Guide (to see what resourcess it will need)

Steel: 6
Carbon Fibre: 2
Nekros Stone: 4

This is what i see now. I will think more about it and post what i think here until one developer goes here and say something (Bad or Good. I hope Good)

That is my main example, but keep your ideas flowing and post here or in other topic if you want.

Maybe if someone manage to see this maybe they put this idea on the game!

_____________________________

"If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway."

One of Murphy Laws.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 15

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 7:56:41 AM

Nibelung44

Posts: 99
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline

Aurora allows to design your own components. But the game is MM hell. You really don't want to get that in DW.

(in reply to Xkill)

Post #: 16

RE: Other Possible Design Mode - 5/10/2010 9:51:36 AM

Lamb Chop

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/20/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nibelung44

Aurora allows to design your own components. But the game is MM hell. You really don't want to get that in DW.

I am a masochist at heart got a link?
when I google it there are zillion trillion hits

(in reply to Nibelung44)

Post #: 17

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Other Possible Design Mode