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Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/23/2010 3:16:09 PM   
John S

 

Posts: 101
Joined: 9/5/2004
Status: offline 		Two quick questions re the computer in AE.

First, when I played the Allies vs a Japanese computer in the campaign games in the original WITP I always had the impression that the computer handled Allied subs fairly well. Now playing the Allies in an AE campaign, I'm getting the impression that the subs are being sent to some pretty weird places (e.g. a sub based in Columbo is sent to patrol off of Bombay). Am I just being overly critical, what is the general impression of how the computer handles subs in AE?

Second, I recently saw an oddity and wonder whether I should worry about it or whether I can do something about it. I put three DD's on an ASW mission and set patrol zones not far from Sydney. I checked them out later and they were three hexes away from Sydney with zero endurance and were crawling home to refuel. Does the computer leave them out there to run dry? Is there a setting that I should use to get them home at a reasonable speed when they are on patrol?
Post #: 1
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/23/2010 3:58:38 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		My ASW forces come home and refuel.....most of the time.  I've seen it happen once or twice that it didn't.  I wonder if they were chasing a sub contact an continued the chase rather than retire.  The good news is that I have never seen them run out a long ways from port.

I never put subs on computer control.  I would guess that the patrol near Bombay was a defensive patrol, but it does seem a poor location to park a sub.

(in reply to John S)
Post #: 2
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/23/2010 6:37:11 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John S

Two quick questions re the computer in AE.

First, when I played the Allies vs a Japanese computer in the campaign games in the original WITP I always had the impression that the computer handled Allied subs fairly well. Now playing the Allies in an AE campaign, I'm getting the impression that the subs are being sent to some pretty weird places (e.g. a sub based in Columbo is sent to patrol off of Bombay). Am I just being overly critical, what is the general impression of how the computer handles subs in AE?


Yesterday, on a whim, I relaunched WITP for the first time in a year. I could barely look at it. Seemed like a toy. So many bases missing which I now know are critical, no shipyard repair, etc. Like seeing an old girlfriend who gained 150 pounds. (There are no women here, right? Good.)

I loaded up my last open game, Allies vs. Japanese AI, summer of 1945. There were Allied subs stacked six tiers deep south of the HI, with no space between hexes. The sub routines in WITP always flooded the HI in a completely unhistoric way. The sub routines in AE are so far ahead of WITP's that it's difficult to even call WITP's "routines."

AE will sometimes do own-port barrier patrols. I see them often around San Diego and LA. As you say, sometimes on the Indian coast. Often the AI uses the Dutch boats and the S-boats, when they become obsolete, to do these missions. (I mean later on, like 1943.) There's no way in the game to decommission ships as was done with the S-boats, so there's no harm in it. If it bothers you, you can tie them up (don't disband) in a port you don't use for anything else and forget they exist.

It doesn't sound like you're very far along, so all I'll say is you may one day soon be glad those boats are hanging around Bombay. Andy likes to play games in the AI scripts.

In my next game I'm going to hand-control the subs, but the auto-sub routines work very well, IMO.

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RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/23/2010 10:33:16 PM   
Ildabaoth

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Like seeing an old girlfriend who gained 150 pounds. (There are no women here, right? Good.)



You made my day. ;) (and yes, this place is full of girls)

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Post #: 4
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 10:46:46 AM   
jejo68

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 3/13/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ildabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Like seeing an old girlfriend who gained 150 pounds. (There are no women here, right? Good.)



You made my day. ;) (and yes, this place is full of girls)

hmm girls as in grown men crying, or girls as in those weird thingies with mood swings etc

(in reply to Ildabaoth)
Post #: 5
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 3:42:50 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Some very insightful posts in this thread.

Yes, Auto Sub Ops will use short ranged subs form defensive patrols. Which subs to use defensively changes over time, with minimum offensive combat endurance increasing year by year. Which ports to defend is based on location of the sub, size of the port, and perceived danger to the port. Also range from the sub base to the port. It is quite possible for a larger rear-area port to be selected. Subs will also be rebased forward or to the rear based on a number of conditions. These include sub endurance, range to enemy ports, support available, fuel levels at ports, and probably a couple of more that I am too lazy to go lookup.

Subs can not be decommissioned but they can be withdrawn. Some scenarios have the old S boats and some of the early named subs being withdrawn in the last half of the year. Don't recall the stock scenarios but "da babes" certainly does.

(in reply to jejo68)
Post #: 6
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 8:02:20 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I have my subs on patrol routes that are working so far.
Refuelling, too.

My question is if the accumulated system damage a sub can have after a longer time at sea will
get repaired at a specific point (lets say 15 sys damage) or do i have to handle that myself ?
Just found several of my subs with system damage of 7-15 on patrol.
The "sub on patrol"-routine won´t send them to the yards, or at least disband in the homeport ?

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 8:50:01 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

I have my subs on patrol routes that are working so far.
Refuelling, too.

My question is if the accumulated system damage a sub can have after a longer time at sea will
get repaired at a specific point (lets say 15 sys damage) or do i have to handle that myself ?
Just found several of my subs with system damage of 7-15 on patrol.
The "sub on patrol"-routine won´t send them to the yards, or at least disband in the homeport ?


There's a "cripple" status for subs (it's in red) where they do proceed to the nearest feasible base to repair. I don't know how that's determined, or the amount of trigger damage. I've seen subs in the 45 damage range be cripples, but I don't know the floor.

I haven't tracked it closely, but my perception is that auto-sub-op subs hang around in home port to fix system damage, but they don't disband to go pierside to do it. They stay in the TF. For those cases where the sub isn't a cripple, but can't fix the damage in Readiness mode, I haven't tracked it. I usually intercept any subs I think need to go Pierside or Shipyard, take them away from the AI, and fix them myself.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/24/2010 8:52:05 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 8:55:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Some very insightful posts in this thread.

Yes, Auto Sub Ops will use short ranged subs form defensive patrols. Which subs to use defensively changes over time, with minimum offensive combat endurance increasing year by year. Which ports to defend is based on location of the sub, size of the port, and perceived danger to the port. Also range from the sub base to the port. It is quite possible for a larger rear-area port to be selected. Subs will also be rebased forward or to the rear based on a number of conditions. These include sub endurance, range to enemy ports, support available, fuel levels at ports, and probably a couple of more that I am too lazy to go lookup.



Interesting.I had a saga with USS Seal. She was doing a local patrol area off San Francisco. I took her off auto, moved her to PH and disbanded, figuring the AI would send her to a forward patrol zone. It sent her back to SF. I left it alone and forgot about it. About 18 months later, I noticed her patrolling out of the forward base at Saipan. Kind of a cool routine.

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The Moose

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Post #: 9
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 9:30:52 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

I have my subs on patrol routes that are working so far.
Refuelling, too.

My question is if the accumulated system damage a sub can have after a longer time at sea will
get repaired at a specific point (lets say 15 sys damage) or do i have to handle that myself ?
Just found several of my subs with system damage of 7-15 on patrol.
The "sub on patrol"-routine won´t send them to the yards, or at least disband in the homeport ?


Subs will terminate patrol for repair under two sets of conditions:
1. A sub will terminate patrol EARLY if any damage component reaches 25.
2. A sub that has returned for fuel or ammo reasons will terminate patrol and disband if any damage component exceeds 10.

Subs that disband are left in readiness repair. The player will have to select any other repair options.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 10
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 10:46:54 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Yes, best to check your subs daily and I sometimes miss when one has been damaged by an aircraft bomb. Easy to do with the universal ship list and just takes a minute. You can have a sub with fairly moderate damage remain on patrol and I don't think that is such a good idea.  So it is best to get in the habit of giving them a quick check every turn. I tend to send them home if accumulated total damage gets over ten or so.

Anyone know if the US ever used subs or auxilary ships as milch cows? In 1942 those subs have to travel a long way.

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Post #: 11
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/24/2010 10:48:16 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, best to check your subs daily and I sometimes miss when one has been damaged by an aircraft bomb. Easy to do with the universal ship list and just takes a minute. You can have a sub with fairly moderate damage remain on patrol and I don't think that is such a good idea.  So it is best to get in the habit of giving them a quick check every turn. I tend to send them home if accumulated total damage gets over ten or so.

Anyone know if the US ever used subs or auxilary ships as milch cows? In 1942 those subs have to travel a long way.

I have to admit that of all the aspects of AE over WITP, the sub game is my favorite. Really an excellent job with the subs and I look upon it as a bonus game within a game. I watch every replay.




Meant to edit........

< Message edited by crsutton -- 5/24/2010 10:49:35 PM >

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I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 12
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/25/2010 1:32:14 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, best to check your subs daily and I sometimes miss when one has been damaged by an aircraft bomb. Easy to do with the universal ship list and just takes a minute. You can have a sub with fairly moderate damage remain on patrol and I don't think that is such a good idea.  So it is best to get in the habit of giving them a quick check every turn. I tend to send them home if accumulated total damage gets over ten or so.

Anyone know if the US ever used subs or auxilary ships as milch cows? In 1942 those subs have to travel a long way.


Ten is a pucker-factor number for me too. It takes so little time to fix that, and I just imagine the trim pump being out of allignment, hydraulic leaks, maybe a busted hull isolation valve . . .

Better to send them home, fix it, and send them back. You have enough slack.

I'm not aware of any milch cow type operations. I have Blair on the nighstand to re-read, but I haven't started. Fleet boats had a huge range advantage over the U-boats, and they topped off at Midway going both ways for Pearl. Fuel wasn't usually the limiting factor.

I'm not sure the fuel hose fititngs were universal through the USN in WWII. I think subs' were smaller in diameter than an unrep hose, but I'm not certain.

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The Moose

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Post #: 13
RE: Computer Subs and Computer Patrols - 5/25/2010 5:09:21 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		One thing I learned early on, is using submarines on an offensive level without putting them in overall danger. For example sticking them within 5 HEX of Truk would almost be suicide, or Rabaul for example. So I adapted an offensive/defensive strategy where I would stack 5 subs, 5 hex wide - 5 hex from an enemy base where I knew ships would be coming to. Bases like Moresby, Townville each had 10 subs assigned, Luganville, Suva, Johnson Island.

Right now I credit with over 212 sinkings by submarines with 3 loses, all to aircraft.


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ASUS Maximus IV Extreme-Z Intel Core I7 2800k Corsair Hydro Heatsink Corsair Vengeance DD3 24GB EVGA GTX 580 Western Digital 1.5TB Raid 0 Windows 7

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Post #: 14
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