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SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:01:05 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		According to the devs the production of the SBD-3 and the SBD-4 are combined (since the only difference in the aircraft was the voltage of the electrical systems). The rate allowed the Allied Player is 21 aircraft per month.

Douglas Aircraft produced 584 SBD-3s starting deliveries in March 1941. A production rate of 30 SBD-3s/month starting March 41 and ending Sept 42 gives 570 machines with all but a handful being sent to the Pacific Fleet (according to bi-weekly USN reports "Locations of Navy Aircraft"). This rate also seems to account for more or less all the SBD-3s produced at just the right time to match when Douglas started deliveries of 780 SBD-4s in October 1942.

SBD-4 production then continued until Douglas started delivering SBD-5s in May 1943 (7 months at 110 aircraft per month). Most of the SBD-4s went to the Pacific as well.

Also bearing on the matter is that the same "Locations of Navy Aircraft" shows the Atlantic Fleet carrier (Ranger and some CVEs) and carriers fitting out as operating Vindicators and Helldivers in their VS/VB squadrons at least until Torch and even then only a few of the VS/VBs were SBDs.


Post #: 1
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:06:19 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		Let me suggest using the editor to make these changes if your reference points are the way you want to set them. The beautiful thing is you can set them exactly the way you want to if you dont like where they are.

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:07:58 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Wasn't this thread you started enough on this subject?

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:12:30 AM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Wasn't this thread you started enough on this subject?


I agree, using search tends to narrow down multiple threads on same subject that have been resolved.

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:27:00 AM   
Nomad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Wasn't this thread you started enough on this subject?


I agree, using search tends to narrow down multiple threads on same subject that have been resolved.


My real problem is that spence started the thread I referenced.

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 3:31:08 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

According to the devs the production of the SBD-3 and the SBD-4 are combined (since the only difference in the aircraft was the voltage of the electrical systems). The rate allowed the Allied Player is 21 aircraft per month.


That and the propeller. The -4 had a constant speed propeller and the -3 had an older prop design.

The next patch will not have data changes. A future patch might address this.

In the meantime, clone whatever scenario you want to a new slot, either change the -3 production or add the -4 type and set its production accordingly. There are many good artists here who could easily make a side and top for the -4 and there are plenty of empty slots in the aircraft database.

It's easy to make your own mod, especially for something like this.

Bill

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 7:35:03 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Let me suggest using the editor to make these changes if your reference points are the way you want to set them. The beautiful thing is you can set them exactly the way you want to if you dont like where they are.



the problem with saying we can edit all and everything often is the fact that people (me to some point included) are not really keen to start "non official scenarios" because you most often don´t know what you jump into. Even if you are told "I only changed the SBD replacement rate", this could be enough to keep people from playing you.

I also prefer playing the official scenarios that can´t be changed. Against the AI you can of course do whatever you want to, but PBEM...

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 12:00:13 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Agree with Castor here we need an Update data Patch for OOB errors in the official scenarios, or we can have a centralised list somwhere so people can use it as a reference to update the scenario.

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Post #: 8
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 12:40:30 PM   
Grit


Posts: 142
Joined: 4/7/2010
Status: offline 		When you make changes to the game in the editor to reflect a more accurate game are you then able to play PBEM with that change?

If not, wouldn't it be better to simply correct the scenarios already in the game? If it can be agreed on that there is a problem why not simply correct it? Of course agreeing on the problem might be the problem.

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 1:04:34 PM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grit

When you make changes to the game in the editor to reflect a more accurate game are you then able to play PBEM with that change?


Yeah, but not for the official scenario's ... the slots don't allow this, but if you copy the scenario to another game slot and start your PBEM game with this then you can change it on the fly ...

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Post #: 10
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 4:59:36 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		The number of SBD-3 and SBD-4 in the game

- 55 At start
- 7 In pool at start
- 56 Produced for NZ
- 357 Produced for USA
- 6 Arriving in NZ Units
- 478 Arriving in USA units. A note on this number, tracker will only give you a total of 398 arriving in USA units, however, there are several USMC DB units that are withdrawn and then return as a units with SBD-3 planes. These are not shown in tracker (as they only enter the reinforcement queue when the original is withdrawn, however, they can be found in the editor. 80 planes arrive in this way.

This gives a total of 959 SBD-3 and SBD-4 arriving in the game. Compared to a total production of 1364 planes, this means that 70% of the total production can be used for combat duties. Whether this number is too low or not depends on the number used in other theatres, how many were used for testing and training instead of combat and also the operational losses these planes suffered before they could be given to a squadron. If the SBD-3 and 4 aren't split up, then the maximum production can be 44 planes over the 17 month span, which would give 1350 planes arriving in total.

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Post #: 11
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 6:02:40 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Can someone please change the record , heard it all before

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 6:23:43 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grit

When you make changes to the game in the editor to reflect a more accurate game are you then able to play PBEM with that change?



Yes.



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Post #: 13
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 9:09:27 PM   
JWE

 

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Sy'mon says, lots of people thinkin lots 'o ways 'bout the same stuff. But think, meself that Cpt'n timtom have a hard hold on what be. I like this man, he may be little and he may be white and he may be Euro, but his stuff is 'hap'ning', and all that other stuff is 'I wanna'.

Now Sy'mon ain't no Cassandra, but think ya'll need to find another tree to go pee on, 'cause Sy'mon don't t'ink that dog's gonna hunt, and that one ain't gonna be hap'ning.

Rasta rules. John/Sy'mon.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 14
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/2/2010 11:58:35 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		JWE personally i think we have to have at least a mod where the data errors in the Game are updated, or we can have an data update for new games so at least we could have better scenarios. I know that it could create problems for ongoing games but it could be an update which only people who are going to start new games would use. In my game vs the AI i edited these data errors but it would be easier if we know which are the data errors instead of editing each time.

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Post #: 15
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 1:45:12 AM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200
JWE personally i think we have to have at least a mod where the data errors in the Game are updated, or we can have an data update for new games so at least we could have better scenarios. I know that it could create problems for ongoing games but it could be an update which only people who are going to start new games would use. In my game vs the AI i edited these data errors but it would be easier if we know which are the data errors instead of editing each time.

So what's to stop ya'll from making one?

It's not a data error, it's a difference of opinion and, frankly, I'll listen to Mr timtom above any collection of other people, as regards opinion. This man's sources, analyses, and game integrations are cleaner than anything I have seen anywhere else. I have learned to trust his judgment implicitly.

I have supported many tweaks, some of them unpopular, but I don't don't support this one. Sorry, but my vote is no.

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Post #: 16
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 1:51:31 AM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

The number of SBD-3 and SBD-4 in the game

- 55 At start
- 7 In pool at start
- 56 Produced for NZ
- 357 Produced for USA
- 6 Arriving in NZ Units
- 478 Arriving in USA units. A note on this number, tracker will only give you a total of 398 arriving in USA units, however, there are several USMC DB units that are withdrawn and then return as a units with SBD-3 planes. These are not shown in tracker (as they only enter the reinforcement queue when the original is withdrawn, however, they can be found in the editor. 80 planes arrive in this way.

This gives a total of 959 SBD-3 and SBD-4 arriving in the game. Compared to a total production of 1364 planes, this means that 70% of the total production can be used for combat duties. Whether this number is too low or not depends on the number used in other theatres, how many were used for testing and training instead of combat and also the operational losses these planes suffered before they could be given to a squadron. If the SBD-3 and 4 aren't split up, then the maximum production can be 44 planes over the 17 month span, which would give 1350 planes arriving in total.


Why was this left out of the game? Seems to be a glaring error.
Obviously I am missing another thread form JWE's posting. You would think production #s for the US would be straight forword. I take it is not. Oh well.

< Message edited by ETF -- 6/3/2010 1:53:16 AM >

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 1:52:02 AM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		I am not arguing in favor of  the SBD production John but in regarding other small OOB errors like the 25pounder production and some errors in the ground units which where discussed in the war room. Tweaking should be left to the Modders.

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Post #: 18
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 7:24:09 AM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

The number of SBD-3 and SBD-4 in the game

- 55 At start
- 7 In pool at start
- 56 Produced for NZ
- 357 Produced for USA
- 6 Arriving in NZ Units
- 478 Arriving in USA units. A note on this number, tracker will only give you a total of 398 arriving in USA units, however, there are several USMC DB units that are withdrawn and then return as a units with SBD-3 planes. These are not shown in tracker (as they only enter the reinforcement queue when the original is withdrawn, however, they can be found in the editor. 80 planes arrive in this way.

This gives a total of 959 SBD-3 and SBD-4 arriving in the game. Compared to a total production of 1364 planes, this means that 70% of the total production can be used for combat duties. Whether this number is too low or not depends on the number used in other theatres, how many were used for testing and training instead of combat and also the operational losses these planes suffered before they could be given to a squadron. If the SBD-3 and 4 aren't split up, then the maximum production can be 44 planes over the 17 month span, which would give 1350 planes arriving in total.


Why was this left out of the game? Seems to be a glaring error.
Obviously I am missing another thread form JWE's posting. You would think production #s for the US would be straight forword. I take it is not. Oh well.


What was left out of the game ? Are you referring to the 30% produced but not available ? If so, your answer is in my post, planes used in other theatres, all non-combat duties and operational losses before they could reach their units. This 70% percentage may be too low or too high, but that is a difference in opinion and not a glaring error.

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Post #: 19
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 5:21:47 PM   
Grit


Posts: 142
Joined: 4/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders


quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

The number of SBD-3 and SBD-4 in the game

- 55 At start
- 7 In pool at start
- 56 Produced for NZ
- 357 Produced for USA
- 6 Arriving in NZ Units
- 478 Arriving in USA units. A note on this number, tracker will only give you a total of 398 arriving in USA units, however, there are several USMC DB units that are withdrawn and then return as a units with SBD-3 planes. These are not shown in tracker (as they only enter the reinforcement queue when the original is withdrawn, however, they can be found in the editor. 80 planes arrive in this way.

This gives a total of 959 SBD-3 and SBD-4 arriving in the game. Compared to a total production of 1364 planes, this means that 70% of the total production can be used for combat duties. Whether this number is too low or not depends on the number used in other theatres, how many were used for testing and training instead of combat and also the operational losses these planes suffered before they could be given to a squadron. If the SBD-3 and 4 aren't split up, then the maximum production can be 44 planes over the 17 month span, which would give 1350 planes arriving in total.


Why was this left out of the game? Seems to be a glaring error.
Obviously I am missing another thread form JWE's posting. You would think production #s for the US would be straight forword. I take it is not. Oh well.


What was left out of the game ? Are you referring to the 30% produced but not available ? If so, your answer is in my post, planes used in other theatres, all non-combat duties and operational losses before they could reach their units. This 70% percentage may be too low or too high, but that is a difference in opinion and not a glaring error.


This video may shed some light on the issue.

7x13=28

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Post #: 20
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 6:15:46 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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< Message edited by Termite2 -- 6/4/2010 1:17:29 AM >

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RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 7:08:38 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grit

This video may shed some light on the issue.

7x13=28




And people claim humanity has made 'progress' in the decades since then!

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Post #: 22
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 9:36:53 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline



quote:

The number of SBD-3 and SBD-4 in the game

- 55 At start
- 7 In pool at start
- 56 Produced for NZ
- 357 Produced for USA
- 6 Arriving in NZ Units
- 478 Arriving in USA units. A note on this number, tracker will only give you a total of 398 arriving in USA units, however, there are several USMC DB units that are withdrawn and then return as a units with SBD-3 planes. These are not shown in tracker (as they only enter the reinforcement queue when the original is withdrawn, however, they can be found in the editor. 80 planes arrive in this way.

This gives a total of 959 SBD-3 and SBD-4 arriving in the game. Compared to a total production of 1364 planes, this means that 70% of the total production can be used for combat duties. Whether this number is too low or not depends on the number used in other theatres, how many were used for testing and training instead of combat and also the operational losses these planes suffered before they could be given to a squadron. If the SBD-3 and 4 aren't split up, then the maximum production can be 44 planes over the 17 month span, which would give 1350 planes arriving in total.



If you check the "Location of Navy Aircraft" files for most of 1942 there are no SBDs of any model assigned to the Atlantic Fleet. In October 42 a few are assigned to CVEs participating in Torch (the USS Ranger soldiers on with Vindicators though). By June 1943 there are 115 SBD3/4s in the Atlantic AOR: 29 on the Ranger, 26 on CVEs serving with LANTFLT, 29 with 3rd MAW at Cherry Point and the remainder assigned to CVs/CVLs fitting out for service with PACFLT.

Army A-24As (SBD-3) and A-24B (SBD-4) are not included at all in the 1364 total for SBD-3 and SBD-4 production nor are 60 A-24Bs that were given by the Army to the Marine Corps as (officially) SBD-5a's. Army A-24 production numbers should be added to Navy production numbers to arrive at totals for the SBD (all models).

Thus it seems the discrepancy grows.

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Post #: 23
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 11:17:45 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200
I am not arguing in favor of  the SBD production John but in regarding other small OOB errors like the 25pounder production and some errors in the ground units which where discussed in the war room. Tweaking should be left to the Modders.

I understand. I was just trying to let you down gently ... but ...

Anything (ANYTHING), that is a matter of opinion, will not (NOT), that's .. N.. O .. T .. (a one sylable word, easily understood), be included in a future data patch unless something is "demonstrably" and "verifyably" wrong (opinion does not count), including "demonstrable" and "verifyable" primary source data (wikiporkia and 'my favorite website' won't cut it). If you truly think you have something, the folks to talk to are:

Air - timtom: a real hard a$$, you better have your poopie together for this guy; and he talks to Elf.
Nav - me or Don: Don's a sweetie, but I'm a real ba$tard, so you best have your poopie together.
Land - AndyMac: touchable, probably the nicest of us, but has the hardest job; give him a break.

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Post #: 24
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 11:18:07 PM   
Smeulders

 

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quote:

If you check the "Location of Navy Aircraft" files for most of 1942 there are no SBDs of any model assigned to the Atlantic Fleet. In October 42 a few are assigned to CVEs participating in Torch (the USS Ranger soldiers on with Vindicators though). By June 1943 there are 115 SBD3/4s in the Atlantic AOR: 29 on the Ranger, 26 on CVEs serving with LANTFLT, 29 with 3rd MAW at Cherry Point and the remainder assigned to CVs/CVLs fitting out for service with PACFLT.

Army A-24As (SBD-3) and A-24B (SBD-4) are not included at all in the 1364 total for SBD-3 and SBD-4 production nor are 60 A-24Bs that were given by the Army to the Marine Corps as (officially) SBD-5a's. Army A-24 production numbers should be added to Navy production numbers to arrive at totals for the SBD (all models).

Thus it seems the discrepancy grows.


Except the A-24 is in the game as a separate plane, so I see no reason to somehow add them to the 1364 used for SBD-3 and SBD-4.

Now, from your own sources, there are 84 SBD assigned to the Atlantic at that point in time, so there is a maximum of 1280 SBD-3/4 for the pacific. A couple of assumptions for this.
1) No SBD-3/4 were lost in the Atlantic prior to this peak of 84, this seems like a very generous assumption, not having this assumption would lower the 1280 number.
2) After this peak, no SBD were shipped to the Atlantic to replace any losses.
2) None of the SBD used in the Atlantic were transferred there from the Pacific.
3) None of the SBD used in the Atlantic at the peak were transferred to the Pacific. (Except those on the CV/CVL working up, but these aren't included in the 84). Not a strong assumption, given that SBD-5 production had already started, and enough SBD-3 were retiring in the pacific to reinforce units that still flew the plane, without any need for transfers from the Atlantic.

So using the 1280 number, we get 75% of SBD-3/4 production that went to the Pacific available in the game, note that this is in part based on the very generous assumptions 1 and 2. The bare minimum is still 70% and that is assuming every SBD ever used in the Atlantic was shipped there after prior use in the Pacific. With the numbers now provided, the only question is, do you believe it is realistic that 25% or less of planes produced never made it to active duty. That's a question that someone with more expertise than me should answer though.

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Post #: 25
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 11:46:14 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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< Message edited by Termite2 -- 6/4/2010 1:18:50 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/3/2010 11:51:45 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Ok got the point John. The best solution then will be to try and centralise these Data errors and make them in a thread in the Mod forum.

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Post #: 27
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/4/2010 12:05:33 AM   
Bearcat2

 

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< Message edited by Termite2 -- 6/4/2010 1:26:50 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/4/2010 12:28:09 AM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
SBD-4 production by Douglas production numbers

Yeah? Same stuff as the last 5 threads and actually less than the data we got; but keep trying.

So do you have a point that hasn't been made and dealt (repeatedly) with over the last six months?

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Post #: 29
RE: SBD-3 production is wrong - 6/4/2010 12:38:13 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
SBD-4 production by Douglas production numbers

Yeah? Same stuff as the last 5 threads and actually less than the data we got; but keep trying.

So do you have a point that hasn't been made and dealt (repeatedly) with over the last six months?


Queue the next forum thread with "omg wrong numbers" in 2 weeks.


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