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Mediterranean Scenario - 6/6/2010 11:26:26 PM   
barrykimmerly


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/6/2010
Status: offline 		There was a Mediterranean scenario that was posted for WITP a few years ago... I downloaded it but the scale was just wrong. NOW in AE the scale would be right. Has anybody thought about a Mediterranean game... sort of like War Plan Orage for WITP, but Med for AE?
Post #: 1
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 1:07:44 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		This question has been asked recently on another thread... anyone got the link?

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Post #: 2
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 2:55:41 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		I mentioned it a few, times basically there's some interest in it, however not enough yet.

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RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 3:14:39 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		The amount of work Involved just from a data point of view is immense , that does not include a new map which on itself would take a lot of time and PWHex Data. I admire the two Modders wh did WITP Russia (Bubi Hartman) and WITP Mediteranean (Dilli?) they had a lot of guts to make them and time. IMO the only people that can make those kind of scenarios are the DEV Team of AE, and Matrix would have to charge for it as a new game just immagine the Howling and shouting that players would do. I am all in favour if somebody decides to do it and my hat is off to them !

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Post #: 4
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 3:35:33 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed. NOw all we need is some developers whom we can butter up.
Think there is definitely enough interest out there for a WITP_AE-type War in the Med expansion kit...

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Post #: 5
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 3:48:08 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Yep sign me on and I am redy to pay and give a helping hand. Matrix Sales are you reading ?

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Post #: 6
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 3:49:40 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed, I volunteer my services (such as they are!)

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Post #: 7
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 5:28:49 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The Map and data are tough enough. The hardest part is simulating the strategic importance of getting supply convoys to Libya, and the land warfare in general in North Africa. I don't know how you can do it. The AE engine IMO isn't going to successfully model the North African campaign. Naval activity on the Libyan and Egyptian coasts were an important component, and difficult to simulate.

That's even before you look at stuff like how to treat the Vichy French, or the invasion of Crete, plus Frogmen, TORCH, not to mention where the scenario begins and ends. Yikes!

I would love a good Med scenario, but the challenges to me look too difficult

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RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/7/2010 5:37:59 PM   
barrykimmerly


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/6/2010
Status: offline 		I disagree Q-Ball. Just look at War Plan Orange. I suggest that it was a bigger challenge than a Med scenario, (Maybe I am wrong...). I DO agree about the land war though. That would be the biggest challenge IMO.

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Post #: 9
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/8/2010 3:26:01 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I agree with Q-Ball.


Our evaluation is that WITM would require a new engine - and I've even heard a rumor that this was the opinion of 2by3 the developers of the original WITP. Q-Ball got it right - the land system of WITP and AE just will not do justice to the reality of land combat in WITM.

Doing the OOB work is fun - but that is the easy part. The game scale really must change - the land system must change - and that alone probably drives a new engine.

But, a Med Mod is certainly possible. Several were started for WITP engine and at least one was pretty much finished. They looked great - but the playing didn't seem to last very long so I assume there were issues.



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Post #: 10
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/8/2010 3:46:12 AM   
barrykimmerly


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/6/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for your input everyone. I raised this because I would really like to see it happen. I would pay for this... I guess it would essentially have to be a whole new game. Oh well- it was a thought :)

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Post #: 11
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/8/2010 4:49:01 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I agree with Q-Ball.


Our evaluation is that WITM would require a new engine - and I've even heard a rumor that this was the opinion of 2by3 the developers of the original WITP. Q-Ball got it right - the land system of WITP and AE just will not do justice to the reality of land combat in WITM.

Doing the OOB work is fun - but that is the easy part. The game scale really must change - the land system must change - and that alone probably drives a new engine.

But, a Med Mod is certainly possible. Several were started for WITP engine and at least one was pretty much finished. They looked great - but the playing didn't seem to last very long so I assume there were issues.




Reminds me of our last few conversations Joe, i would LOVE to do the OOB, however the land combat and production, forget it. However I would fork over $40 for this WITM, doubt that would cover the costs though

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Post #: 12
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/9/2010 2:50:53 AM   
starsis1

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		What do you guys think about doing Norway '40 scenario? The map would have to be built just like for Med (although on a smaller scale) but the nature of the land combat would make it a better fit IMHO

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Post #: 13
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/9/2010 5:27:56 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
I would fork over $40 for this WITM, doubt that would cover the costs though


Not quite - I think $1M USD would probably come close though ...


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Post #: 14
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/9/2010 9:08:28 AM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Do you accept Nigerian Bank Drafts ?

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Post #: 15
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/10/2010 5:03:33 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Well if ever it came to life, I think that such a game should start after the fall of France and the entry of Italy in the war. It would be very difficult to portray the war in Yugoslavia (it folded in a few days) though I think the engine would do fine for war in Greece and later in Italy. What would be a real challenge is to portray accurately the desert war and war production for Italy. Highly mobile warfare is always difficult to emulate in a game. Italian war production could be tricky because resources were relatively plentiful (be it human or otherwise) but it was the production system itself which was rather archaic.

Also very tricky would be how to treat Vichy France though that could take a whole thread to discuss.... :)

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Post #: 16
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/10/2010 9:57:20 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		It's too bad, because I would love to play with the Regia Marina. Whatever you think of Italian Naval Power, they built the best-looking ships of WWII, bar none.

The Vittorio Venetos were fierce looking, and fast!




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RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/10/2010 11:20:27 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		+1

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Post #: 18
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 9:20:20 AM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline 		The WiTM scenario for WiTP was hosted on Fremen's site. But I looked on there and it's no longer listed. It was PBEM only as well I think. I seem to remember trying it as a single player but getting some strange results as the AI didn't do a lot. It is still available on Spooky's site.

< Message edited by moonraker -- 6/11/2010 10:26:33 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 2:26:31 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Whatever you think of Italian Naval Power, they built the best-looking ships of WWII, bar none.

The Vittorio Venetos were fierce looking, and fast!


Agreed, they were very fast. They had the best looking ships in WWII and definitely didn't want anything nasty to happen to them or anybody to take potshots at them. Hence they were by far the best runners, not even the RN could catch up with them...

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Post #: 20
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 5:03:44 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		 In practice the whole Italian fleet was about speed and secondly, firepower. Despite appearing foolish to some, speed in the Mediterranean is actually vital since airpower was relatively closeby (even enemy...). Protection was secondary. Note that the British convoys to Malta were all made up of the fastest merchantmen and tankers available at that time and the continous trickle of supplies were maintained to the island by fast ships like the Manxman. Also the Italian interwar doctrine centred upon its ability to dictate the pace and place of battle (since they had few ships when compared to the British/French combined fleets) and therefore speed was vital.

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Post #: 21
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 5:10:18 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		I also remember my father once telling me that the Italians had the fastest destroyer in WWII (think he said it was eventually sunk by British aircraft) but I can't remember the name. Anyone out there know it or have a picture?

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Post #: 22
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 5:27:34 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I think that title belonged to the French.


Kind of moot. The 1930's speed craze was unrealistic in that trials were run optimized for setting speed records. In service actual speed would be slower and in the Italian's case, operational wear and tear quickly reduced max DD and cruiser speeds still further.



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Post #: 23
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 7:34:06 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The Italians also had alot of dual-turrets with guns placed very close together. So close, you have to look closely to see 2 guns.

The crews must have had to learn port/starboard loading routines, as each guns would have to be serviced from the outside. That had to have complicated crew training, and by extension re-load rates.

Why did the Italians do that, was it for weight reasons (center of gravity), or fire-control reasons (closer salvoes?)? Any clue?

Just one example of the dual turret arrangement, DD Fulmine:




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RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/11/2010 8:04:33 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		weight. (and space saving)

US employed similar weight saving methods in their early "Standard" type battleships of the Nevada and Pennsylvania classes and in the early heavy cruisers. The tripple turret put all 3 barrels connected by one trunion and could not be raised individually. Concerns about interference in shell trajectories due to the closeness of the barrels was compensated for by alternating firing betweenst the three barrels of the turret.

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Post #: 25
RE: Mediterranean Scenario - 6/13/2010 12:37:03 AM   
Dili

 

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quote:

In practice the whole Italian fleet was about speed and secondly, firepower.


That is not quite true. Some ships followed that, others didn't. There wasn't a rule. Italians for example had one of biggest belt armor in CL/CA with 150mm or equivalent in Abruzzis and Zara. Vittorio Veneto with cumulative 400mm was also good.

quote:

Why did the Italians do that, was it for weight reasons (center of gravity), or fire-control reasons (closer salvoes?)? Any clue?


One of the reasons was minelaying. As you can see the rear turret is elevated. The Italian destroyers sold to Greece had one gun per turret, so 4 turrets.


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