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Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 8:19:30 PM   
PresterJohn001


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		The G3M3 Nell has better range (than any Betty) and gets radar (eventually). What can the Betty offer that makes it worth producing?
(As in what am i missing)
Post #: 1
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 9:53:45 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Speed and durability?

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Post #: 2
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 10:11:06 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		They might use different engines. Don't have AE in front of me.

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RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 10:23:34 PM   
PresterJohn001


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		Yes the engines used are different, i can cover this without too much problem. As for speed and durability, they all get shot down pretty quickly. I think there is an armoured Betty that arrives in ?44, thats not going to help much really.

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Post #: 4
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 10:42:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Produce some of both. They're roughly equivalent in combat value and the different engine consumption makes a difference for production of IJAAF bombers. If you find you're low on IJAAF airframes or the engines for same, then temporarily switch off Betty production. If you've more than enough to go around-produce 'em both. Airframe investment diversification strategy...

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RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 11:02:46 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Produce some of both. They're roughly equivalent in combat value and the different engine consumption makes a difference for production of IJAAF bombers. If you find you're low on IJAAF airframes or the engines for same, then temporarily switch off Betty production. If you've more than enough to go around-produce 'em both. Airframe investment diversification strategy...


The only JAAF bomber you should be building is the Helen and it uses an engine that is unique to itself.

There is no need to build both. This gives you less flexibility in switching over factories to producing another air frame. By having two smaller Betty or Nell factories, rather than one large Betty and one large Nell factory, you can switch out a factory to building something else more quickly. multiple smaller factories are better than fewer, larger ones.

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Post #: 6
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/8/2010 11:18:31 PM   
Ametysth

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/10/2009
Status: offline 		I say drop Betty. The Ha-32 engine used by Betty is also used by Sally. If you go with Nell from the start, you don't need to produce huge numbers of Ha-32s for both Navy and Army main bombers, especially since demand will drop when Ki-49 Helen becomes available and becomes army's main bomber, which in turn would leave you with useless capacity on engine with not that many users. By choosing Nell you avoid this and any extra capacity in Ha-32 production is neatly eaten by H8K1's and -K2's.

Later I would start a production of P1Y1, which is the third Navy bomber. It is faster than either  Nell or Betty and actually has armor, full year ahead of G4M3a (another armored navy bomber) which only appears late 1944. I wouldn't replace all of my Nells with P1Y1 Frances as it has short legs for IJN bomber, instead I would produce both. Another good point; P1Y1 uses Ha-45 engine, which is probably produced in huge numbers by any IJN player getting that far, allowing concentration on few engine models which can be mass produced without a fear of over production or waste.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 1:44:03 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Produce some of both. They're roughly equivalent in combat value and the different engine consumption makes a difference for production of IJAAF bombers. If you find you're low on IJAAF airframes or the engines for same, then temporarily switch off Betty production. If you've more than enough to go around-produce 'em both. Airframe investment diversification strategy...


The only JAAF bomber you should be building is the Helen and it uses an engine that is unique to itself.

There is no need to build both. This gives you less flexibility in switching over factories to producing another air frame. By having two smaller Betty or Nell factories, rather than one large Betty and one large Nell factory, you can switch out a factory to building something else more quickly. multiple smaller factories are better than fewer, larger ones.

A little too stringent / strident 'should be' for my taste, CNG.

I like the diversification, as I stated previously. When Helen becomes more widely available, maybe I could see the logic then in upscaling engines and airframes for that. Until then the Sally IIa is going to be my workhorse, and I'd like to build a reserve of both Betties and Nells too. Once that has been assured, then I'd consider switching one of those off.

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Post #: 8
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 7:23:37 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		As Chickenboy said. Build both. The Schwerpunkt should be on Betty production though.

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Post #: 9
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 10:54:38 AM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Helen is unquestionably the best JAAF bomber overall, altuogh the armoured Beatty that appears late '44 isn't all that bad although I doubt by then the IJ player will be very interested in a two-engined 'strategic/heavy' bomber...
If I were you I'd continue to produce both for now and then switch over to the Helen when it becomes available - some R&D to advance its intro date might be appreciated, but don't 4get to research its engine as well!
I also agree re the above - keep your factories small and build as many as you can of them, that way you are not putting all of your eggs in one basket.
An interesting move would be to also build the P1Y1 Frances as soona s it becomes availalbe, as despite its short range it has got good armour and payload. It also uses the Ha-45 engine which should be in mass production by '43 which is when it apepars. Don't worry about the short range as by then you are going to need decent escorts for it armour or not...

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Post #: 10
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 11:07:01 AM   
Schatten

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/3/2009
Status: offline 		as a sidenotice, Japanese Planes will be anyway shoot down easily even with armor due to their generall low durability i think.
i see this everyday in fighterbattles....if allied planes go shoot from behind (even from zero´s with 20mm cannons) its most times damaged and dives away....a Jap Fighter like Oscar IIb will be most times shoot down even if he has armor and most allied Fighter only machine gun´s.

same thing for a Bomber i think.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 11
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 11:14:15 AM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Agreed. Hence my advice that, even with the better-armoured Frances and late G4M3a Beatty (better armoured than before but still weak when compared to corresponding ALlied aircraft which were generally made rough and tough) you are going to need a decent escort from '43 onwards...

(in reply to Schatten)
Post #: 12
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/9/2010 1:09:55 PM   
Ametysth

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/10/2009
Status: offline 		Armor doesn't really work against enemy fighters, but seems to have an edge against flak damage and also ops-loses suffered from it. Especially useful if you are trying to punch through enemy TF AA fire to launch torpedoes. I agree with xj900, P1Y1 is the best bet to get a torp on the side of that USN LST, but I would keep G3M3 around as patrol/ASW/extreme range strike aircraft.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 13
RE: Betty or Nell - 6/12/2010 5:28:23 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

I say drop Betty. The Ha-32 engine used by Betty is also used by Sally. If you go with Nell from the start, you don't need to produce huge numbers of Ha-32s for both Navy and Army main bombers, especially since demand will drop when Ki-49 Helen becomes available and becomes army's main bomber, which in turn would leave you with useless capacity on engine with not that many users. By choosing Nell you avoid this and any extra capacity in Ha-32 production is neatly eaten by H8K1's and -K2's.

Later I would start a production of P1Y1, which is the third Navy bomber. It is faster than either  Nell or Betty and actually has armor, full year ahead of G4M3a (another armored navy bomber) which only appears late 1944. I wouldn't replace all of my Nells with P1Y1 Frances as it has short legs for IJN bomber, instead I would produce both. Another good point; P1Y1 uses Ha-45 engine, which is probably produced in huge numbers by any IJN player getting that far, allowing concentration on few engine models which can be mass produced without a fear of over production or waste.



This is some sound thinking in your production. Good advice I will consider for my next Jap game

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Post #: 14
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