Base AA not covering docked TFs?

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Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 9:23:23 AM

Sardaukar
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Hi,

I am playing against AI and trying my new Fortress Java™ - strategy. Since desperately trying to get more supply in during summer of 1942 and usually short of airframes, CAP in Tjilatjap is often either insufficient or nonexistent. I do have couple of US Coastal AA Rgts and Base Forces there with substantial AA armament, 90mm, 75mm, 40m and Quad .50s etc. I think AA guns themselves number way over 100.

However, during the game-play, I noticed that IJNAF Betties, Nells and Kates do not suffer casualties when attacking docked TFs. They do get quite nicely hammered by flak when they try to attack troops or bases/ports with similar AA suite available.

So, to me it seems, after few months of IJN torpedo planes with their "wire-guided torpedoes" hitting ship after ship trying to unload and getting away relatively unscathed (often with no damage), that Docked TFs somehow do not benefit from Base AA cover. Which is bit amusing, since even .50 should have a chance now and then against planes launching torpedoes at 200ft. After all, Docked to me would indicate ship is actually in harbour.

Is this the case? Anyone can confirm or elaborate why it's so?

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 6/3/2010 9:24:49 AM >

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 10:31:45 AM

michaelm75au
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If a base is being attacked, and the mission is Port Attack, then both land and any TFs present in the hex will join in.

But the opposite doesn't seem to hold true...

If attacking a TF, then only the TF seems to be involved in the Flak Attack. As you rightly point out, you would have expected some of the 'base' flak to join in. At least those designated as CD type units covering the port of 'docked' TFs.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 11:04:34 AM

herwin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

If a base is being attacked, and the mission is Port Attack, then both land and any TFs present in the hex will join in.

But the opposite doesn't seem to hold true...

If attacking a TF, then only the TF seems to be involved in the Flak Attack. As you rightly point out, you would have expected some of the 'base' flak to join in. At least those designated as CD type units covering the port of 'docked' TFs.

Docked TFs under air attack got underway. That was the reason naval bases under constant air attack found it difficult to resupply and refit docked TFs.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 11:39:26 AM

xj900uk
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Have you ruled out the Dutch AA gunners simply being poor shots?

My Dutch pilots couldn't hit the backside of a barn from 1000 feet...

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 1:13:27 PM

topeverest
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The dutch pilots are pretty darn poor, as are just about all the ground combat units. Not enough time to make them adequate before the carnage starts.

To be clear, the game assumes docked TF's get underway and do not get aid of base AA?

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 2:39:39 PM

m10bob
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Dad In Law was on the Wakefield when she was unloading at Singapore. He remembers she took a direct hit on the stern, but never told me of any planes shot down in that raid, and, well...Singapore WAS an armed fortress..........

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 2:58:13 PM

JohnDillworth
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quote:

Fortress Java™ - strategy

Could you give me some details on the strategy? I just started another game and want to try something similar. I am in December 41 so it looks hopeless. what are the keys? What date are you at?
thanks

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 7:27:20 PM

Sardaukar
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

If a base is being attacked, and the mission is Port Attack, then both land and any TFs present in the hex will join in.

But the opposite doesn't seem to hold true...

If attacking a TF, then only the TF seems to be involved in the Flak Attack. As you rightly point out, you would have expected some of the 'base' flak to join in. At least those designated as CD type units covering the port of 'docked' TFs.

Thanks for clarification! Any chance this will be amended? I mean that IMHO docked TFs should get some mutual protection..after all, "docked" is supposed to depict that ships are actually in harbor.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 6/3/2010 8:26:24 PM >

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 8:16:29 PM

Sardaukar
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Fortress Java™ - strategy

Could you give me some details on the strategy? I just started another game and want to try something similar. I am in December 41 so it looks hopeless. what are the keys? What date are you at?
thanks

I am at start of September 1942.

Contains AI spoilers, so do not read if not wanting to know!

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My Fortress Java-strategy basically consists of redirecting most UK reinforcements to Java at the start of the game plus evacuating 2 brigades of AUS 8 Div & whole 11th Indian Div (recombined) from Singapore there. So if you are already in late Dec, might be too late.

My reinforcements to Java included 18 UK Div, 6th AUS Div, 7th AUS Div, 11th Indian Div, 48th Gurkha Brig, 44th Indian Brig, 46th Indian Brig, 22nd AUS Brig, 27th AUS Brig (these 2 form the majority of AUS 8th Div, rest belong to those "bird battalions"). I have also shipped in 4 AUS CD units, 6 US Coastal AA Regiments and 6 US Tank/TD Bns. Plus couple of US Base forces. I still hold also Koepang (I evacuated large US base force from Cebu there and AI hasn't been able to take it yet). I evacuated most of the Brit air units from Singapore to Java before Singers fell and flew in or shipped in about 8 squadrons of US fighters (P-39D/P-40E).

I also started to air-transport in all Dutch units I could from day 1 (since you can air-transport in restricted command units if in same command)

My problem is that IJ AI has invaded with approximately 11 divisions worth of troops! First 2 landings with regimental strength I crushed, but even with augmented defense, I have been barely able to hold on. I just crushed one of those IJA divisions (they landed in 3 different bases but haven't been able to capture any), which will probably allow me to hold on, being able to redirect one division and couple of Dutch regiments/US tank battalions against those 2 major landings.

All bases are fortified up to lvl 3 except Batavia and Soerabaja lvl 4. Major problem has been ability to keep air units getting replacements. Since they need base with at least 20 000 supplies, this has cost me lot of ships running from Perth. I have had also majority of IJN CV force running around Java now and then, causing their own problems. All combat ships in Java were sunk by air power (apart few PT boats left), but they put up nice fight. I have now also 1 Marine Div and 32 US Div on their way to Perth and to Java from there. I have also 2 US CVs there to provide air cover to convoys and another 2 US CVs in Sydney (since I had problems around Port Moresby and Noumea too...) Dutch air units have been mostly wiped out by attrition now, only UK/AUS/NZ/US squadrons soldier on, barely. I have to rotate them to Batavia to receive replacements, which is pain in the butt. On the other hand, Allied flak has now destroyed almost 1000 Japanese planes. Pity they do not help with docked TFs, as I have found to my chagrin. But IJAAF/IJNAF has had tough going against my bases in Java, main ones covered with 2 AA Rgts in addition to base forces.

In SWPac, I used PPs to release and recombine 5th AUS Div and immediately shipped it into PM. I also air-transported some units when available (for example was able to recombine 30th AUS Brig there), including air HQ). I almost lost Noumea, since AI landed into Koumac and started to march south from there. I managed to get reinforcements in just..about 1 day margin before AI would have taken the base. Lost one AUS Armoured Rgt I released by paying PP at sea when IJN CVs arrived and surprised that convoy on the way. I have now crushed the Japanese in New Caledonia with Americal Div and Suva has been made fortress, using it as hub for fuel convoys to Oz.

So you can see it has been helluva fight! All credit to Andy Mac for making the AI scripts very challenging, this one surely have given me some nasty surprises.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 8:25:32 PM

Sardaukar
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

The dutch pilots are pretty darn poor, as are just about all the ground combat units. Not enough time to make them adequate before the carnage starts.

To be clear, the game assumes docked TF's get underway and do not get aid of base AA?

All Dutch air has been shot out already. But you can make Dutch units combat-worthy by using Rest/Training to raise their morale to 80s-90s. The they become feasible combat units. Same with air units with Training 100 for month or so.

Anyway, my units doing the majority of shooting at this stage (Sept 42) are UK/AUS/NZ/US units. I was just quite surprised, as michaelm confirmed, that docked TFs do not get benefit from Base AA when base does get benefit from ship AA when base it attacked (port attack).

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 8:50:33 PM

chesmart
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Send all your CVs Sardauker to java if you want it to hold.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/3/2010 9:28:38 PM

Sardaukar
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Problem is, there are not many places to repair large ships around there. I have not brought ships over 30 000t to Oz for that reason, since Sydney shipyard is only size 30. I think only Yorktown and Enterprise will fit into that. And Wasp too. But Lexington-class CVs are too big to repair there.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/4/2010 5:02:27 PM

Archangel85
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Colombo is size 40 though, and reasonably close to repair ships close to the front.

the beauty of this strategy is that Java completely controls the DEIs most important ports: Balikapan can be reached in one night move by ships going 30 kn and going full speed, meaning air power won't stop them going in, and be back under LBA cover before the AM air phase. Palembang can be reached by land based bombers from Batavia.

This means your opponent pretty much has to attack Java and can not leave it to wither on the vine. And we all know what happens when you force an enemy to attack your strongest position...

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/11/2010 4:41:54 PM

showboat1
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I tried someting similar by turning Port Blair into the Malta of the Indian Ocean. IJ forces have been trying to take it for months and I currently have four IJA divisions trapped. I've two RN battlewagons to air and surface warfare but I'm pretty sure I've sunk two or three IJN BB's and alot a cruisers and DD's. My carriers and land based air at PB and Little Andaman are raising all kinds of heck with their attempts to land fresh divisions or even resupply the divisions there. In the the end I ended up with a Guadalcanal instead of a Malta.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/11/2010 7:50:36 PM

mike scholl 1
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest
To be clear, the game assumes docked TF's get underway and do not get aid of base AA?

This is a rather odd assumption, giving the amount of time required to get up steam, weigh the anchor, cast off from the dock, and get out of harbor (when everyone else is trying to do the same thing) with the limited (usually minutes) warning times of air raids.

Also seems odd that the game doesn't offer the option to stay in port and continue unloading while relying on Flak (as was done at Malta). Especially when the ships involved have virtually no chance of defending themselves on their own.

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RE: Base AA not covering docked TFs? - 6/11/2010 8:10:18 PM

Nikademus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

The dutch pilots are pretty darn poor, as are just about all the ground combat units. Not enough time to make them adequate before the carnage starts.

To be clear, the game assumes docked TF's get underway and do not get aid of base AA?

Ships in a TF at a port hex that are engaged in loading/unloading attempt to get under way if attacked by a surface TF. The operative word is attempt. Ships in same TF attacked from the air don't attempt (its too late) Hence you get a msg, "Ship transferring cargo" when the plane elements attack their targets.

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