Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.

Warspite1

So why do they not do anything about it? You've had an e-mail exchange with Harry Rowland apparently, so what's the story?

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ORIGINAL: Phelan

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

In what sense does MWIF sans AI beat Vassal? People here are discussing prices like 60 dollars for a version with no AI and then 40 more for the AI... Thatīs a lot more than Iīd be willing to pay, let me tell you.

In fact, since WiF Vassal is working just fine Iīm not really sure I would find a MWIF sans AI interesting at all. Sure, it can handle supply and stuff like that so you donīt miss things. On the other hand, you will get constricted by RAW, minor rule changes compared to WIF to handle the computerized form will require re-thinking some stuff, will it handle new optionals or rule changes introduced after itīs release? And there will be no room for houserules.

For a long time I would have been happy for a MWIF/CWIF sans AI, but after that came Vassal and frankly now I donīt really see the need for a MWIF unless it comes with an AI.

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.

Warspite1

So why do they not do anything about it? You've had an e-mail exchange with Harry Rowland apparently, so what's the story?

Well I have had an email exchange with Harry over some items for the web site. He seemed pretty upbeat about everything.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

A suggestion to Matrix .... just please let me give you some money somehow. Kthx bye.

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ORIGINAL: Phelan

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

In what sense does MWIF sans AI beat Vassal? People here are discussing prices like 60 dollars for a version with no AI and then 40 more for the AI... Thatīs a lot more than Iīd be willing to pay, let me tell you.

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In fact, since WiF Vassal is working just fine Iīm not really sure I would find a MWIF sans AI interesting at all. Sure, it can handle supply and stuff like that so you donīt miss things. On the other hand, you will get constricted by RAW, minor rule changes compared to WIF to handle the computerized form will require re-thinking some stuff, will it handle new optionals or rule changes introduced after itīs release? And there will be no room for houserules.

For a long time I would have been happy for a MWIF/CWIF sans AI, but after that came Vassal and frankly now I donīt really see the need for a MWIF unless it comes with an AI.

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As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI

Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.

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ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

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ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I donīt think that anybody knows how long that takes

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

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ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

Consider the advantages of playing an AI-less MWIF solitaire;
- a far better version than CWIF
- an AI only as good as you are that you can beat or tie every game (also lose to or tie every game )
- a version that will allow you to play online or by email when you do decide you'd like to try that again - and this version will handle a vast amoount of the overhead and administrivia that you have to juggle when playing using FREX Vassal... production calculation and tracking, remembering all the rules, etc.

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

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ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I donīt think that anybody knows how long that takes

I'm confused... you said "the AI is almost finished" and "the game is perfect"?!??! Now the game is still bugged and nobody knows when the AI will be done? And I'm the one that's been talking rubbish?

Try to stay on track, ladies. This isn't about me - it's about this game. Matrix's efforts are indefensible, don't try to confuse the issue by switching the focus of the discussion.

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

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ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I donīt think that anybody knows how long that takes

I'm confused... you said "the AI is almost finished" and "the game is perfect"?!??! Now the game is still bugged and nobody knows when the AI will be done? And I'm the one that's been talking rubbish?

Try to stay on track, ladies. This isn't about me - it's about this game. Matrix's efforts are indefensible, don't try to confuse the issue by switching the focus of the discussion.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
That's where we are - no need to be confused.

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

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ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

Consider the advantages of playing an AI-less MWIF solitaire;
- a far better version than CWIF
- an AI only as good as you are that you can beat or tie every game (also lose to or tie every game )
- a version that will allow you to play online or by email when you do decide you'd like to try that again - and this version will handle a vast amoount of the overhead and administrivia that you have to juggle when playing using FREX Vassal... production calculation and tracking, remembering all the rules, etc.

Sorry not quite sure what you mean, I know this I am playing cwif, and of course only in a solitare version and even though the computer does not allow mistakes, the solitare system is extremely boring even though the die dictates all outcomes and not you other than the odds you can create with multiple attackers, in MHO if you sat at home with the board game and played solitare you would go bananas pretty soon [just assuming that] I would think that the real fun of WIF board game was the chit chat, a little beer[maybe a lot] and just plain socializing with your friends other than that if all your friends moved away got married or just lost interest in the game your WIF board is loaded with dust.
sorry if you think I am being argumentive, I am not, the only change lately that I have made is reached deep into my soul for patience.

Bo

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: warspite1
That's where we are - no need to be confused.

The only people that are confused either have not read this thread from the beginning or want to appear that way, in time they will catch up if they want to.

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ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan
Bo

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...

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ORIGINAL: Phelan

Paul, relax. I was offering my point of view, which I believe I have as much a right to as anyone, no need for the aggressive tone.

Not that I see that it matters to you, but since I resent the implication I can point out that I do own the board game with all the extra kits, when I use Vassal it is following the limits set by ADG, and the WiF module has permission from ADG.

My background is that I play, and started playing, the boardgame. From that background, I have a playing style where I might like to finish things not necessarily in sequence but rather by map. That is a lot easier on just a computerized board with markers than on MWIF which will have the rules and sequence of play encoded. On the other hand, as I said, one gets a lot of stuff handled automatically with MWIF, so it is a matter of taste and preference. On my part, I know the rules well enough and handle the adminstration rather quickly, so itīs not that big a hassle to do that manually. For someone not used to playing boardgame WiF, the administrative stuff will be a bigger hurdle and for them MWIF will surely be easier.

I havenīt looked at Cyberboard WiF in a while, but Vassal uses scanned original maps and counters, donīt remember that being the case for Cyberboard, will take a new look at it.

Cheers / Phelan

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...

flipperwascornhusker, normally I would let this ride but thats not my nature why would the Big Ten allow a bunch of Okies ooops thats Oklahoma isnt it my mistake, sorry Sooners, into a conference that beat up on division three teams for thirty years or so, the Big Ten means just that BIG, they want ND so bad they are crying in there beers in Canada[figure that one out mister flipper whatever] and besides the stupid dolphins have to be protected by the big ten ooops oil companies or is that walruses

Bo

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ORIGINAL: HansHafen

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...

I highly doubt this, so much so that I think I will...wait for it....chuckle, hehehehehe....

One logical reason for my doubt and amusement is the fact that the AI is "far" from complete, while the rest of the game appears to be quite well developed despite continued bug chasing. Now, if you are referring to the game following the rules as part of the AI, then your statement might have some merit. However, in that case we are speaking about two very different items. To clearify, when I speak of AI, I mean an AI opponent. One that can discern strategems and faint attacks in one direct and then swiftly redeploy to the main objective once the opponent has overreacted etc.

I wish there could be a good AI. I hope someday there will be a workable AI. Deep down in my heart of logic I know there never will be even a decent AI. It is not possible with this game. Saying this doesn't make me happy. It is just the truth.

Delaying the release of this title in an effort to produce an AI is a pipedream. Look at how long it has taken to get the "AI", or the program, to just follow the concrete rules. How can you program strategic or tactical intuition? How do you over come the same old mistakes that AI has been making in all the computer games that have come before?

This program was announced in 2004. It is 2010. The AI is not even near to completion. The program can't even operate bug free yet. Six years later. And we have had an extremely dedicated, talented and iron willed programmer going at it for 50 or more hours a week non-stop. And he has had a great deal of help from well meaning and industrious volunteers.

I want to believe. I wish I could believe. I just can't anymore.

Give us the AI-less game and then go prove me wrong.

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...

flipperwascornhusker, normally I would let this ride but thats not my nature why would the Big Ten allow a bunch of Okies ooops thats Oklahoma isnt it my mistake, sorry Sooners, into a conference that beat up on division three teams for thirty years or so, the Big Ten means just that BIG, they want ND so bad they are crying in there beers in Canada[figure that one out mister flipper whatever] and besides the stupid dolphins have to be protected by the big ten ooops oil companies or is that walruses

Bo

Bo,

I hate to have to hit you upside the head with a flipper over and over and over again...WHACK, WHACK, WHACK!!!

But, sadly come 2012 and beyond the Cornhuskers will be the Big 10's representative to the Rose Bowl each year (the only bowl I never liked). As for ND, adding Nebraska helps a bit in getting them into the Big 10, honestly I hope it doesn't happen as personally I am a Big East fan for basketball (G-Town) and that would open the floodgates for the ACC, SEC & Big 10 to ruin the Big East conference.

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It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...

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ORIGINAL: SingSteve

Oh, I nearly forgot the real reason I'm writing. Someone mentioned vassal-with-AI. Can this be true? I'd be interested in looking at it, have searched, but can't find it. Could someone please direct me.

Steve.