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IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 3:08:55 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Hi Chaps,

just out of curiosity, do you get an SC crew beyond 45/45 experience (day/night) ?
I am in Dec. 42 - and that is as far as I get them ...

< Message edited by vonSchnitter -- 6/18/2010 3:09:37 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 3:11:23 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		IIRC thats maximum you get for non-major combatants.
The manual has the exact limits.

Edit: Combat increases the exp beyond that value naturally...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 6/18/2010 3:12:06 PM >

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RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 3:36:23 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		right,

here goes the manual:
6.4.4.1
Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating,
and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night
as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews
perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they
perform at 80% of their crew rating.

That is all adobe search got me.

If 45/45 experience is the max for SCs prior to 43 - and the crews are operating at 67% of that - look elsewheres for effiecient ASW assets. As far as I can tell, IJN crew/vessel experience outweights "ASW rating" by far.


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Post #: 3
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 3:42:22 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

right,

here goes the manual:
6.4.4.1
Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating,
and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night
as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews
perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they
perform at 80% of their crew rating.

That is all adobe search got me.

If 45/45 experience is the max for SCs prior to 43 - and the crews are operating at 67% of that - look elsewheres for effiecient ASW assets. As far as I can tell, IJN crew/vessel experience outweights "ASW rating" by far.




SCs are basically there to absorb torpedoes that might otherwise be hitting TKs and xAKs. Use enough of them in a convoy and the merchies are unlikely to get hit.

Your DDs will be somewhat adequate as ASW platforms. But your ASW really won't take off until you start to get E class ships.

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Post #: 4
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 3:45:25 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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One important point is the process of gaining experience. Ship crews gain experience up to the stated value by non-combat training. Once they have reached that value, they only gain additional experience by actual combat.

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Post #: 5
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 4:08:51 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Well,Dan

any old hand in WitP would be ready to subscribe to your statement - and as far as I can see, the manuals do not say otherwise.
However, if crew experience is all important, the issue of 45/45 for SCs still stands - factoring in asw malusses for the IJN as per the manual , it would be very useful to collect or compound asw crew experience levels for the IJN.
Especially if there are more or less arbitrary captions in play. If any.
Thanks

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Post #: 6
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 5:33:25 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well,Dan

any old hand in WitP would be ready to subscribe to your statement - and as far as I can see, the manuals do not say otherwise.
However, if crew experience is all important, the issue of 45/45 for SCs still stands - factoring in asw malusses for the IJN as per the manual , it would be very useful to collect or compound asw crew experience levels for the IJN.
Especially if there are more or less arbitrary captions in play. If any.
Thanks


I do not agree. A low level of experience for a green crew sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get them some combat experience, they will improve rapidly.

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Post #: 7
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 5:44:28 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I do not agree. A low level of experience for a green crew sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get them some combat experience, they will improve rapidly.



Apologies to Von Schnitter for not staying on topic but I have a question and while Don's here

Shakedown cruises -----would off map sailing count?

Does experience rise while sailing offmap until it gets to the level which combat is a required?

Thanks Don have a great weekend!

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 6/18/2010 5:45:46 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 6:04:42 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Sorry Dan,

the original question was not about training ship crews as such - or the rate of training per day/night at sea - wheather in contact with enemy forces or not.
The question was: Is there a cap on training/experience or not.

The rate of experience gain is secondary.

Once the question of caps on training gets some clarifiction, the issue of ASW rating - and after that - the imposed efficiency values for ASW (exp + ASW rtating) may be usefully considered.

So again: Any IJN SC 45/45 experience ?
Numbers for any other class.

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Post #: 9
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 6:05:09 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I do not agree. A low level of experience for a green crew sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get them some combat experience, they will improve rapidly.



Apologies to Von Schnitter for not staying on topic but I have a question and while Don's here

Shakedown cruises -----would off map sailing count?

Does experience rise while sailing offmap until it gets to the level which combat is a required?

Thanks Don have a great weekend!


I'm actually not sure. I don't recall anything special done to enable it or to disable it. All I can say is try it and see.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 10
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 10:23:43 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		If sub encounters count as combat, surviving SCs should be able to increase their experience reasonably. I agree, though, that SCs and small PBs are mostly expendable torpedo shields. At least they, like any other escorts, keep subs from surface attacks.

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Post #: 11
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/18/2010 11:39:42 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

One important point is the process of gaining experience. Ship crews gain experience up to the stated value by non-combat training. Once they have reached that value, they only gain additional experience by actual combat.


I have a group of Canadian Corvettes that all started out with pretty low experience but they have "killed 2 I-Boats" (nothing is ever totally certain I suppose but it's been quite some time and the kills appear on the Sunk List with adequate details). They have made attacks against other IJN subs as well but still their experience remains in the mid-upper 40s. The date now is mid-6/42. Seems that they ought to be rated higher.

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Post #: 12
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/19/2010 12:52:49 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I do not agree. A low level of experience for a green crew sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get them some combat experience, they will improve rapidly.



Apologies to Von Schnitter for not staying on topic but I have a question and while Don's here

Shakedown cruises -----would off map sailing count?

Does experience rise while sailing offmap until it gets to the level which combat is a required?

Thanks Don have a great weekend!


I'm actually not sure. I don't recall anything special done to enable it or to disable it. All I can say is try it and see.


Since my last turn West Virginia picked up some experience while sailing from Cristobal to the East Coast.
I've been labeling my tfs with exp of the flagship and in some cases the date it left port just to see what experience is doing WV was 56/47 when it left Cristobal a few days ago as you can see it's now 56/48



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 6/19/2010 12:59:56 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 9:49:36 AM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Yup,

the experience issue is important in many ways - asw related or not.

So far none of my IJN SCs went beyond 45/45 day/night -while some PBs do. (12/42)

Either SCs are capped at 45/45, or there is a steepening of the learning curve at that point - like it works for airgroups.

Anyway.

A DD only ASW Group in port set to "react" will react to subs in the vicinity - while SC only groups do not - do not know about PB only or mixed groups.

DD groups at sea do not react.

Any input welcome.

If my observations have any value, here are some preliminary conclusions:

SCs (any) are best used as escorts
PBs: The low rangers do well as escorts on short runs - some of the 4000 Range things are best converted to local mine sweepers - while the 6000 range things are fine for any convoy.

A single DD in port - set to react and ASW - combined with some air asset on ASW - is as effective in the ASW role as any number of PBs/SCs on patrol.

Rereading this:
Does it make sence to me. Hmm
How about short tange SCs with ASW rating of 8 - being useless on ASW (other than catching torps) - while DDs with a rating of 2 go after subs ?

The IJN high command was that dense ? Dunno.
Anyway. Unless more data become available, I will reconsider my escort and ASW dispositions considerably

Cheers

besides Sulu: How about starting your own thread ?

< Message edited by vonSchnitter -- 6/20/2010 9:50:36 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 10:34:38 AM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Shakedown_Cruises

This is what I found on the experience gained from shakedown cruises. It's probably based on a post by one of the Devs, but unfortunately I forgot to link to it. SC likely fall in the category of semi-combat vessels, so there experience won't go above 45/45 without combat. Also important is that if they would have gotten any experience fighting before they reached 45/45, this essentially only serves to get to that level sooner. The only way to get them higher, is for them to get combat experience after they reached the 45 exp level. So the question is, what will get them combat experience ? Is being in combat enough, or do they have to get hits/direct hits/kills ?

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Post #: 15
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 11:23:25 AM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Good Find Smeulders,

kind of confirms the "step" issue for IJN SCs at 45/45 - and some other vessels.

SCs and PBs best used for Convoy Duty ?

Anyway: Is a 45/45 crew still a green one - according to DanBs definition - or not ?

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Post #: 16
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 2:04:41 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Just throwing this out there, the high rated short range asw platforms are good for patroling. It doesn't take much to set up an advanced base near a choke point the subs use to get into an area. Put some sea planes or float planes patroling the approach and the short range asw platforms sweeping the choke point. I set mine using 2 check points and the third chk point back at the base for a day.

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RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 2:50:12 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter


besides Sulu: How about starting your own thread ?

No problem I offered an apology for a question I had to a developer, I didn't think it was worth it's own thread.

On topic the IJN experience is overated at wars start anyway, any complaints about their experience needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The allied nations were actually getting training & experience in the Atlantic, what naval war was the IJN fighting before the wars start especially their sub force? If the SC and ASW experience mechanism is flawed, it is flawed for both sides not just the IJN.

Thanks!

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Post #: 18
RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 5:46:39 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

Yup,

the experience issue is important in many ways - asw related or not.

So far none of my IJN SCs went beyond 45/45 day/night -while some PBs do. (12/42)

Either SCs are capped at 45/45, or there is a steepening of the learning curve at that point - like it works for airgroups.

Anyway.

A DD only ASW Group in port set to "react" will react to subs in the vicinity - while SC only groups do not - do not know about PB only or mixed groups.

DD groups at sea do not react.


They cartainly do as allies (in the guad scenario at least) ..It was my main ASW tool all game. 4DD's (or 2DD's and 2SC's or some mix therof) react 3-4 seems to work better as they can run too far into danger at 6. also the less OP's points used in moving means more time to prosecute the target. suck and heavily damaged a lot of japanese I boats doing this over 6 months in game time.

really suicidally agressive commanders help a LOT too.

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RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 8:42:28 PM   
steamboateng


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/21/2010
From: somewhere in Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I have had the same result as Bob Brennan UK; my 2 DD asw tf's set to a reaction level of 6, chase Nip I-boats all over the ocean, often chasing them 10 hexes or so from the ports they haunt (Sydney, Brisbane Numea) in the Guaalcanal campaign.

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RE: IJN SC Experience - 6/20/2010 9:15:04 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Another way to increase effectiveness of small escorts is routing of convoys through shallow waters whenever possible. I saw SCs inflicting crippling damage on detected subs there, although actually sinking anything with Type 95 DCs seems to be extremely hard even then.

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