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AI forces me to surrender?? This shouldn't be possible! - 11/30/2000 2:31:00 AM

Tommy

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Flying Chindits SPWAW 4.4 I'm the Brits, my gliders land in the open field. I split into two groups and rush for the edges of the jungle North & South of the LZ. I wait for the Japs to charge out of the jungle. I will give up the victory hexes at first, but I'll mow down all the Japs. Later, I'll counterattack to retake the victory hexes. Great plan, isn't it? On turn 8, most of the Japs are killed (40 Brit 325 Jap dead). 95% of my squads are in good shape but the Japs own all the victory hexes. Next turn the counter attack starts - a sure win! But wait; the AI takes it's turn, then the game game ends on turn 9 of 12, the Japs win a decisive victory. The game surrendered my side with out even asking me if I wanted to give up! Of course I don't want to give up, everything is going according to my plan. In a few turns, I'll own all the victory hexes. Please change the game so that only I can surrender the human side, the AI should not be able to do that. Tommy

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- 11/30/2000 5:57:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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If you let the enemy have all the victory hexes - you lose!! You always have to maintain at least one, or run the risk of the game ending.

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Post #: 2

- 11/30/2000 7:03:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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Might be a silly question, but how far away were you're troops from the victory hexes? On another thread, Wild Bill had said that when the computer calculates that it is physically impossible for one side to get at least a draw, the game ends with a loss for that side. Were there enough Japanese troops left to hold you off just long enough that the computer decided you could not possibly end up with at least a draw? Paul, far be it from me to argue with the man

, but the enemy controls all of the victory hexes at the begining of many scenarios I've played. It doesn't seem like that would neccessarily spell out a loss.

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Post #: 3

- 11/30/2000 7:46:00 PM

Tommy

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Grinning Dwarf, I think you see my point. There are 5 victory hexes, I was with 2 hexes of two of them, one move from 1 and 2 moves from the fourth. Only the 5th hex, in the village was beyond me. It was turn 9 of 12 and the AI had 3 squads doing the square dance in the village (they never moved to the battle) and 3 decimated squads, highly suppressed in the battle area. I had lost only 1 squad and the two mg jeeps. To demonstrate my point, I replayed from the end of turn 8. This time, by luck I knocked off one more Jap squad and stopped a squad from taking the last hex. The game did not end and I went on to a good marginal victory. Only I should have the right to surrender my side!! After all, the objective was NOT to hold all hexes by turn 9. It was to hold most of the hexes by turn 12. Tommy

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- 11/30/2000 8:55:00 PM

Charles22

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Tommy: You're confused here, if I can rely on your every word in this thread. First of all, you say the enemy took "the last hex", well? If the game's conditions are to hold 'most' of the hexes until turn 12, if the enemy takes them "all" before that, you did not hold "most" of them till turn 12, but none of them. It would seem that the situation in which you are in, will only allow you to retake hexes if you've held onto at least one. Technically, if it said "most" and you had 20 hexes at first, and the enemy took 11, you should've lost right then, it all depends on whether you're allowed to retake some after the majority have been lost or not. What happened to you, would've surprised me too, given that I don't give up victory hexes very easily, but it would seem as though it worked correctly. If I understand it correctly, the difference between starting out on the offensive against an opponent that already has all the hexes, and you being on the defensive and losing them all, is quite a difference indeed, in fact, to reverse the situation, a number of us have been surprised when going on the offensive against an enemy who has all the hexes, that we cannot mop up, because we accidently took all his hexes, thereby in certain situations causing the end of battle. I think it would be simple enough, to pretty much expect, that "anytime" you let the offensive player take all the hexes, you are liable to be forced to resign. It all makes sense to me, but I've never heard of anyone running into finding that out via having lost it all.

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- 11/30/2000 9:36:00 PM

mogami

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Hi. If the side with advance or assault mission controls all VH's battle is over. Each side has advance in meeting engagement so they both can end battle by control. Defenders or side with delay mission can end battle early by maintaining control of all VH's and destroying or routing a suffiecent number of attackers. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 11/30/2000 10:50:00 PM

Tommy

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Charles22 I seem to have used the wrong word here "till turn 12". I think Wild Bill has said that the evaluation (barring a surrender by the AI) happens at the end of the last turn on awarding victory hex points. You can verify this by hovering over a victory hex; it says " Victory hex worth 800 points at end of battle". Swapping ownership during the battle has no outcome on the final points count. It only affects the game duration when the human grabs them all and the AI gives up. Mogami The Brits and the Japs both have an ADVANCE mission on this one. I think this may be a defect in the game logic that allows the first side to take all the hexes to win, even if they did it with a suicide charge 3 quaters thorugh the game and are about to lose it all to a large, full strength enemy counterattack before the end of regulation time. Think about it, wouldn't the commander's orders be something like "Colonel, you must have the LZ under control by 14:00 hours. The Britsh reserve units will pass through your area at that time to begin the next operation." So what if at noon, the last Japs are running around the LZ? They'll all be dead and quiet by 14:00. The fact that the Japs called it a game at turn 9 just shows how completely they had fallen for my trap. They had no idea how many Brits were in the jungle waiting to finish them off. The AI may offer a surrender, but I should be able to reply "Nuts!" Tommy

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- 11/30/2000 11:18:00 PM

Charles22

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Tommy: If the objective was to "hold" this hex or that, and you lose it even for a turn, that's not in the strictest sense holding it. The issue isn't that you lost those points for the hex, as indeed you did, but that you lost "the last one", therefore the enemy has complete control of the field. I'm not sure how this game works, given that there's no running score as some of the earlier SPs had it, but in those, if you lost an 800pt. hex, you lost the points, THOUGH, they could be regained as soon as the hex was retaken. Whoever has it at the end keeps the points. Aside from what losing all the hexes does in as far as game rules go, if you lose "all the hexes" and each one has a huge amount, such as 800, then if there's 20 hexes, on those hexes you are down 16,000 pts. Now normally, if you're giving up all those hexes, you aren't exactly slaughtering the enemy, but even if you were up 1000 to 0, those 16,000 lost put you, scorewise, in a decisive defeat 16,000 to 1,000. It's clear to me that if you hold one hex, you can be down 100,000 to 0, and it don't matter, but if you lose "all" the hexes, particularly when the mission told you to hold most of them, there's nothing to tell the computer you have a chance. I suppose, if the hexes were only worth 10 apiece (200 total), and you were up 2000 to 0 before that, therefore making you up 2000 to 200, the battle might continue. The key is, from the angle I'm coming from, is what is your score when that last hex is taken? If you hold that last hex, you never have to worry about surrendering, but for all practical purposes, particularly when the hexes are 800, the last hex lost is your surrender. It seems to me that the offensive player is allowed to "take hexes" or given time to do so, but the defender is only allowed to retake, if what he's trying to retake isn't that last one. The next time you play, just make real sure one hex stays in your hands; that's the minmum requirement for a defensive mission. If you're up by a huge margin, enough to offset the losing of all the hexes, I don't know if it would keep you in the game or not, but that could only happen when the hexes are of miniscule value.

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- 12/1/2000 1:28:00 AM

mogami

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Hi. Where is the defect in game logic? You are ordered to advance and take x number of objectives. You are given so many turns (time) once you have done this the game ends. Don't let the AI capture all the VH's. Your stratagy takes advantage of the AI's not having a brain. Try to explain your plan to your CO. "Sir I am going to abandon my objectives, slaughter the enemy and then retake them" ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 12/1/2000 2:34:00 AM

Tommy

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Oh, Mogami, that hurt. I thought you were on my side.

I wasn't really thinking of the "brainless AI" stuff when I choose my stategy. I was thinking of the human wave Banzai charges that the Japs are famous for. The SOP for that was pull the wagons in a circle, get in a good defensive position and shoot until they stop coming. Then move out and complete your mission. I was just establishing good LZ perimeter security first, rather than jumping out of the gliders and charging blindly for the objectives. Anybody from Nam out there who did helicopter inserts into jungle LZ's? Comments? Tommy

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- 12/1/2000 2:58:00 AM

mogami

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Hi, I was not trying to hurt your feelings merely point out your mission. LZ's in Nam were a different story you had to hold them if you wanted picked back up after mission. No one is coming into your LZ so get the Hell out of there and set up your killing zones to cover the objectives. They must be important or your commander whould not have dropped you in the first place. I often do not go stright for VH's (meeting engagements) but, time permitting will wait and see how things develop, but I always make sure to guard the VH's I start with (commandos/spec ops have nasty habit of popping up there) If your battle only gives you 12 turns it means HQ's is in a real hurry to get that objective not kill Japs. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 12/1/2000 3:22:00 AM

BA Evans

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quote:

Originally posted by Tommy: Think about it, wouldn't the commander's orders be something like "Colonel, you must have the LZ under control by 14:00 hours. The Britsh reserve units will pass through your area at that time to begin the next operation." So what if at noon, the last Japs are running around the LZ? They'll all be dead and quiet by 14:00. Tommy

From you commander's point of view, your troops haven't even gotten to the LZ yet. You are doing so poorly at gaining ground that the British reserves have had to be routed through a quieter sector. Since you are doing so poorly, your commander might need to reassign those British reserves to assist YOU instead of moving on to their original objectives. You must kill the enemy AND gain ground. Keep this in mind next game. The game does seem to keep a running score and compare the score to victory conditions, etc. BA Evans [This message has been edited by BA Evans (edited November 30, 2000).]

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- 12/1/2000 4:10:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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Tommy: inserts tongue in cheek Is your major problem simply in the fact you were told you surrendered? Would it have been easier on you if the screen had simply said "Time's up! You LOSE!" removes tongue from cheek

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

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- 12/1/2000 4:10:00 AM

Grumble

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Gotta agree with BA Evans. "Real World", your chain of command would see that due to: unexpected resistance, or less-than-expected aggressiveness from the leadership on the ground, the LZ is still contested with less than 2 hours until TOT. Therefore, following the tenet of "don't reinforce failure" they decided to reroute the troops. If you were a high enough priority, then they would retask them to support you.

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- 12/1/2000 2:09:00 PM

mogami

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Hi, I was under the impression that each turn in SPWaW is about 5 minutes so if he had 12 turns for battle that is only an hour. And if on turn 9 he surrenders he only has 15 minutes left. Easy to see HQ's would think he had failed if after 45 minutes he has not even captured 1 VH. I read the mission orders for this scenario. You are to take up a position (VH's) to block supply/reinforcement/retreat of IJA 18th Division. If you stop to kill misc Japs you are not where you belong and attack on 18th Div fails. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction! [This message has been edited by Mogami (edited December 01, 2000).]

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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- 12/1/2000 9:31:00 PM

GrinningDwarf

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Based on this thread, I had to actually play this scenario. I don't get big chunks of time to play and I'm only a few turns into it, so please don't spoil any surprises for me that come up in the game but... Tommy, 3 of the 6 vicory hexes are yours when you start the game...you land on top of 'em. Two more are in easy grabbing distance. One is off in a village to the NE. I can understand your holding off on getting into the village until the Japanese have impaled themselves on your guns, but to give up all five of the other victory hexes just seems to me to be.....uhhhh....unaggressive. One platoon ran and grabbed the western-most victory hex and set up blocking/ambush positions in the jungle around it. That trail seems awfully inviting for the Japanese to come down. A Bren is moving over there to support the platoon. A pathfinder unit ran south and grabbed that victory hex and ran into a spot of trouble. What the trouble is, I won't say (in the interests of others who want to try this scenario!), but a platoon and some extras including (I believe) a Vickers are heading down there to support. One of my Vickers jeeps spotted a good number Japanese approaching from the east. Since these are the same guys that shot at my gliders as we landed, I knew they were there already. The Vickers jeep is slowing them down (several of their squads are already retreating) while troops assemble from the gliders and take up blocking positions. My other pathfinder unit was scouting north to the village and spotted more Japanese rushing down from the village, and the rest of my unit is preparing to receive them. Maybe it's not the best plan (I can think of a couple of things I could have done beter already), but I don't think I'm going to have to give up all my victorty hexes in the process.

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

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Post #: 16

- 12/1/2000 9:35:00 PM

Bing

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quote:

Originally posted by Mogami: ..... I read the mission orders for this scenario. ....... [/B]

Mogami, you've brought up a point I've been meaning to raise: Wish there were a way to access mission orders from the battle map, while the turn is in progress, I would prefer a straightforward military-style short text document, clearly stating the mission objectives, time constraints (if any) and if or if not reinf. would be available. Just a thought; as it is now, there have been times I have to save and quit the turn, to read the selection screen text file. Bing

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Post #: 17

- 12/1/2000 9:41:00 PM

Fredde

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Move the cursor over the weather icon? There's a whole lot of info there, don't remember exactly what.. but in any case the number of turns remaining and i think, what mission you have

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Post #: 18

- 12/2/2000 12:49:00 AM

Tommy

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GriningDwarf, I read your post on your preps for the battle. I think you chose good scouting positions at the 3 points; west, northeast and southwest. The next comments may be a spoiler for you. If so - close this window. In any case; please continue to post your progress on this. It is a very good scenario. Tommy . . .if not - read on . . . . . . . . . . . . That's exactly what I did on my first attempt. I didn't make it - good luck. I restarted on the 4th or 5th turn and tried out my now famous "circle the wagons" plan.

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- 12/2/2000 3:16:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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The rest of the story.... the Japanese managed to grab the south victory hex back about turn 9, but then they charged into the open towards the gliders and got cut down. I retook that victory hex. I stopped the counter-attacks from the west, north, and east. I wound up with a draw. I had 3675 pts. to the Japanese 1308. That victory hex in the village is worth 1000 pts.! If I had captured that hex it would have been 4675 to 308 (without accounting for other casualties) and I believe a decisive victory, but I never got into the village. I had just knocked out both....uhhh....surprises..., and had the the three survivng Japanese squads routing back through the village under heavy fire, but I ran out of time to get into the village. Oh, yeah...I only lost four units (Chindit HQ2, a pathfinder squad, and both Vickers jeeps) with a total of 70 casualties. The Japanese lost 396 troops and both...surprises. Love that 40 mil...when it's on my side!!

[This message has been edited by GrinningDwarf (edited December 01, 2000).]

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

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Post #: 20

- 12/2/2000 3:24:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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quote:

Originally posted by Tommy: This time, by luck I knocked off one more Jap squad and stopped a squad from taking the last hex. The game did not end and I went on to a good marginal victory. Only I should have the right to surrender my side!! After all, the objective was NOT to hold all hexes by turn 9. It was to hold most of the hexes by turn 12.

That had to have been it...letting the Japanese get all the victory hexes. Has anybody won in less than 12 turns by capturing all of the victory hexes early?

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

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Post #: 21

- 12/2/2000 3:41:00 AM

Tommy

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GD Great scenario, wasn't it? I was on the edge of seat the whole time. After my 3rd restart, when I picked up again from turn 8 and got the luck of not losing the last victory hex, I finished up just like you did. I got a slightly better kill ratio to push me just over into the marginal victory. But that was just due to more conservative play ( as everyone above seems to point out). But after all, I was the Brits! So, I agree, the "forced surrender" is due to the loss (even if temporary) of all of the VH in an Attack vs. Attack scenario like this. I still think we should be the one who decides the surrender, not the AI. What would have happened to Gen MacArthur if he had to surrender the first time the Japs "asked" him to? Tommy

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- 12/2/2000 4:29:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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I think we have to also bear in mind that great as it is, it's only a game and therefore a shadow of reality. I've read enough history to know that if my sit-rep states that I've got the enemy fleeing back through the town, all other objectives secured and the town will be secure in 10-15 minutes of mop up that I'd get better than a draw result. This works both ways...sometimes in my favor as well as against me. I played the "Raiders Ride to Work" scenario and got a marginal victory result even though, in my opinion as the commander on the scene, the issue was still very much in doubt and I had an extremely tentative hold on the objectives...in fact I had just lost the northern victory hexes and only had the crew of a knocked out Sherman on the southern objectives. I think the reason I got the win was because the victory hexes were worth points for every turn held and I rushed my troops out and had all of the objectives occupied in the first three turns or so. It didn't matter that I got blasted off the northern hexes almost as soon as I was on them...the Germans didn't physically occupy them until the last turn of the game, so I was collecting points for a long time. I think the designers need to make arbitrary decisions that 'at this minute, the issue is decided one way or the other'. I don't intend this as a slight in any way and I truely appreciate their work, but it's enough to break through my 'suspension of disbelief'.

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

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Post #: 23

- 12/2/2000 5:13:00 AM

Grumble

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Not to flog a dead horse, but you "really" aren't surrendering. "Real World" again, what's happening is you are breaking contact, falling back and regrouping. However, you "lose" because you didn't fulfill your mission objectives: securing the village and LZ. One may abstract that in this case "Decisive" or "Marginal" Japanese victories are indicative of how much they delayed or cancelled British plans for that sector.

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Post #: 24

- 12/3/2000 6:32:00 AM

marklaker

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Ahhh, the Flying Chindits! I really enjoyed this scenario, but then again it was a WBW scenario and I always enjoy those. Much like Grinning Dwarf, I immediately advanced on the victory hexes and procured all but the village hex. I lost the southeastern hex for a turn, but quickly reclaimed it by shifting squads. The 40mm AA was my salvation. Every time it appeared my defense was about to rupture, the the 40mm came to the rescue. The village hex proved another matter. In retrospect, it appears I waited too long to bring reinforcements from pacified areas and had to slug it out with inadequate forces. Still, when the clock struck 12 (turn 12), I was one hex away from claiming the village from two suppressed rifle squads. That was painful! Because the village hex weighed-in at 1000 pts., I could only claim a 3639-1342 draw. A helluva lot of fun, though! Thanks Wild Bill. ------------------

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Post #: 25

- 12/4/2000 12:32:00 AM

Pillbox

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Is it possible to play this scenario with C&C on? Forces are so spread out I seem defeated before I begin since no one has any orders! I really like scenarios when I can play with C&C on

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Post #: 26

- 12/4/2000 7:19:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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You can switch C&C on from the preferences screen at any time. However, I think the units land kind of scrambled up and you'd spend more time getting the "battlefield tidied up", as BLM would say! I usually see it recommended that C&C be turned off in airborne scenarios. Actually, my understanding is that airborne troops were trained to operate that way, anyway.

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Sergeant to new replacements on the line: I may not have time to tell you to duck, but if you see me dive for the ground you might want to think about why I'm doing it.

(in reply to Tommy)

Post #: 27

- 12/4/2000 8:22:00 AM

Wild Bill

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I concur with GD on this one. Any special forces, Rangers, paras, etc, were specially trained to operate alone, in small unit groups. Of course all of you know that. In that light, C&C should not be required for these types of troops. I think they should be allowed to act independently, or at least until they can be united with the parent unit of the formation. Personal thinking, anyway. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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