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Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 3:02:20 AM

axisandallies

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If America stayed neutral in WW2, how would it have turned out? Let's all be civil here.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 3:17:04 AM

GaryChildress

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In my inexpert opinion the chief difference if the US had stayed out of WW2 would be that Western Europe would have been annexed by the Soviet Union and Japan would still control all the Pacific.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 3:25:35 AM

axisandallies

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I think the UK could hold on to Africa, but not Asia. I think the German-Soviet war would be a toss up. Instead of Berlin 1945, it could have been 1946 or 1947. What if the Japanese attacked Russia along with Germany? Could the Soivets fight a two front war?

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 3:48:26 AM

Brigz

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Two things historically put the US into the war....Pearl Harbor and shortly thereafter, Hitler declared war on the US. If these things wouldn't have happened it would be impossible to guess how events would have played out. But, no matter what, I think the US would have gotten envolved one way or another if it looked like the UK and USSR were facing defeat. There is no way the US could have stood by and let that happen. The Germans controlling Europe and the Japanese controlling the Pacific and Asia would have been disasterous for the US. I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of 1941 and not 2010.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that if the US would have remained neutral and the Germans and Japanese would have won, then it would only be a matter of time before they set their sights on the US. And if they would have conquered and divided the US then it would only be a little more time before the Germans and Japanese were at each others throats. And who would have won that is beyond me.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 3:58:49 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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That's a big what if. Here's my opinion. The Axis control all the world. First there would be no lend lease. Japan runs rampant through the Pacific and then turns it's attention on the S. Union effectively ending any chance for the Soviets to withstand. All of Europe becomes satellite states and G. Britain sues for peace. After many years, Japan has a hard time holding on to such far reacjing gains and eventually loses some areas to local authority. Germany eventually recedes back most of it's territory in western Europe while maintaining a buffer in eastern france. All of Soviet retreats past the Urals for some time until that ground is taken again by the Germans which begins to threaten Japans area of influence. A small war settles the matter and the far east of the former S.U. is ceded to Japan who uses it as its own buffer zone between the only 2 super powers in the world. America continues its isolationism and never becomes the sole super power yet never loses its freedom either. Normal relations start with the U.S. and the scourge of communism never takes hold. After many years, the free people of Germany reject the totalitarian regime of National Socialism and a civil war breaks out supported by a weak America and jealous Japan. WW3 then ensues.

Mo Reb

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 4:09:05 AM

Obsolete

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As I understand it, the Russians already had the war turned around into a forgone conclusion by the time the Americans had got off their ass in the later stages. So not much would have changed that I can see. As for Japan, that's a good question, and to be honest I really don't know.

But basically history would be quite a similar pattern. Russia Wins... Then the Commies gets into a cold-war vs America again.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 4:28:05 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

If America stayed neutral in WW2, how would it have turned out?

I hate to play on semantics here, but it really does depend on how you define neutral. Without American troops on the other fronts, the Soviets still had enough manpower to beat the Wermacht. But without American supplies? That's a harder question. (The "deuce and a half" truck was as valuable on the Eastern front as it was in the West.)

Let it be noted that by the end of October 1941, five weeks before Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was already a combatant in all but name. We were supplying considerable help through Lend-Lease, our ports were available for R&R&R (rest, refuel, and repair) of British ships, and we were in a shooting war with German U-Boats. (We were losing, but that's not the point.)

Lastly, it's hard to see how the U.S. could possibly have stayed neutral in the Pacific. We were applying strong economic sanctions against Japan for the actions in China and Indochina, which was not exactly neutral. Japan's invasion of the Dutch East Indies (DEI for all the Pacific wargaming fanboys) would very likely have lead to war, since we recognized the Free Dutch government. Invasion of the Philippines would have lead to war beyond question. And I highly doubt the Japanese would have been content to seize the Southern Resource Area and leave the Philippines and its bases to threaten them.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 4:31:00 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

As I understand it, the Russians already had the war turned around into a forgone conclusion by the time the Americans had got off their ass in the later stages.

Got off their asses? By that do you mean fighting a two front war to the death after being caught unawares and tooling up for a blood bath. I really think you need to read some books and figure out what America was into during this time. Not trying to start a flame war, but a history lesson is in order here.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 4:54:52 AM

Silverdog

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One thing that disgusts me about WW2 is the arrogance of the US. Yes indeed the US played a role in helping defeat tyranny and help spread freedom.

But to claim you did all this on your own??

Sorry, at least 26 million Russians lost their lives fighting the fascists. And they pushed them all the way back to Berlin. Not to mention all those civilians and soldiers in western Europe who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

I am grateful for the help the US gave, but please don�t say you saved the world, it�s an insult to all that sacrificed their lives in a sad period of humanity.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 5:32:02 AM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

As I understand it, the Russians already had the war turned around into a forgone conclusion by the time the Americans had got off their ass in the later stages.� So not much would have changed that I can see.� As for Japan, that's a good question, and to be honest I really don't know.

But basically history would be quite a similar pattern.� Russia Wins... Then the Commies gets into a cold-war vs America again.

Thanks to lend lease and the diversion of part of Germany's military to the est Wall and Italy.

Some simple facts. Nearly all of the Soviet Unions trucks came from the US, ALL of their communications wire came from the US. US and British tanks and aircraft filled the holes until the factories in the Urals could get back on line.

No US and Britain and the Soviet Union are in big trouble early.

The US originally planned to field 200 divisions, but it was decided by the end of 42 that instead of effecting world wide production of Allied munitions and equipment the US would stay at 100 divisions.

NO US and the entire war is a LOT tougher longer and more costly.

The Common Wealth could not invade the Continent on its own. No US and no strategic Air war, no diversion of 80 percent of the German air force to fighter production and deployment in the west. No removal of divisions from the Soviet Union at critical points to shore up the west. No massed Soviet Artillery divisions because they had no means to communicate. Half the Soviet tank production or worse to provide trucks to the Soviet Army.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 5:33:01 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverdog

Hyperbole

Who said the U.S. did it on their own? No one I know. And claiming that a country is arrogant on this matter is as much as an exaggeration as saying that all British have horrible teeth. BTW, the U.S.A is a country and not a sentient creature therefore it cannot have an opinion.

Can we get back on subject and put the broad brushes down?

mo reb�

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 6/28/2010 5:34:29 AM >

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 5:46:02 AM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverdog

Sorry, at least 26 million Russians lost their lives fighting the fascists.

You're referring to all those folks who got killed preserving Stalinism, correct?

quote:

I am grateful for the help the US gave, but please don�t say you saved the world, it�s an insult to all that sacrificed their lives in a sad period of humanity.

Many progressive/USA will appreciate this comment, but I'd humbly suggest that you've got to acknowledge something about the participation of so many Westerners in this war, from the USA and the CW, that they didn't line up at some "anti-fascist" recruiting station to go out and conquer the world or to defend a no-bullshit communist megalomaniac/filth. Rather, having been called-up, they boarded ships to try and restore some semblance of sanity to the world, the absence of which, they believed, would eventually consume themselves and their families. That's the long and the short of it.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 5:46:48 AM

Doggie

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Without the U.S., the Russians lose. The English lose. The Australians lose.

It's just that simple. The U.S. did not do it all alone, but without them, the Axis powers win. Period.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 5:58:19 AM

Greybriar

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Everyone knows the U.S. Marines won the war.

Seriously, though, I agree with Doggie:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Without the U.S., the Russians lose. The English lose. The Australians lose.

It's just that simple. The U.S. did not do it all alone, but without them, the Axis powers win. Period.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 6:10:50 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

How's that for on subject?

mo reb

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 6:19:06 AM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

Everyone knows the U.S. Marines won the war.

Seriously, though, I agree with Doggie:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Without the U.S., the Russians lose. The English lose. The Australians lose.

It's just that simple. The U.S. did not do it all alone, but without them, the Axis powers win. Period.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 6:44:41 AM

Southernland

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Btritain smashed up by the Luftewaffe in 1940 and strangled by Uboats in 1940-42. All but collapses under starvation rations and lack of resources but no invasion is forthcoming. All 2500 merchant ships lost in the Atlantic must come from British and Allied sources, not US. Commonwealth forces outside of Britain are effectively neutered by lack of resources. German Final victory over the Soviets in 1943 with no lendlease plus the German divisions and Luftewaffe freed up from Western Europe as well as extra German munitions, supplies and resources not consumed combating by the Allied bomber campaign. UK and commonwealth converted to a German client state by 1944. US beats Japan in 44 without Nukes, then goes facist under Lindbergh in 1945 because "all the cool guys at school are facist these days".

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 6:54:49 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

If America stayed neutral in WW2, how would it have turned out? Let's all be civil here.

Warspite1

I like the last sentence - "Let's all be civil here" given what you said about the "arrogant Brits" who apparently "picked" a fight with Nazi Germany (!!) in the Perfect Game thread......

The question though has achieved the questioner's goal and has got a British / US fight going which is always a great shame.

The whole point is, as Roosevelt well knew, the US HAD to enter the war. If they did not, while there were still some Allies left to fight with, the danger was that they would end up fighting a victorious German/Japanese/Italian foe alone. Remember in late 1941 no one thought the Russians would hold on. Hindsight is great, but was not available to politicians in 1941/1942 anymore than it is now.

So please lets not let an immature person like axisandallies be the catalyst for more US/British mud-slinging - we were Allies then, we are now

.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 7:02:49 AM

jomni

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Here's a crazy theory.

The US would be filthy rich!� They can stay away from the war and profit from it by selling weapons to all parties. As if they didn't do this during WW2.� But not getting involved directly would probably boost profits even further.

Anyway... seriously, the US can avoid joning the war in Europe but they cannot avoid the war in the Pacific.

< Message edited by jomni -- 6/28/2010 7:03:27 AM >

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 7:27:26 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
...
The question though has achieved the questioner's goal and has got a British / US fight going which is always a great shame.
...
...
So please lets not let an immature person like axisandallies be the catalyst for more US/British mud-slinging - we were Allies then, we are now .
...

+1

I now have the guy on ignore he was so bloody rude...but as soon as I saw he had started a new thread, I knew exactly what he was up to - an open book axisandallies...an open book.

You epic failed on the other thread. Unfortunately, it seems you have enough unfried cells left in your head to have approached your issue from another angle, keep your agenda and get people involved in your "kleinen krieg".

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 7:38:49 AM

goodwoodrw

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The US would never stayed neutral, the Brits would have dragged the US of A, one way or another. A borrowed U boat, accidentally misplaced in the mouth of the Hudson River or there abouts, a couple stray toepedoes into the side on a nice juicy neutral fat cruise liner bingo game on, nar would never of happened, would it?

ask the 1800 or so allied French sailors at the bottom of the Med.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 7:53:46 AM

Obsolete

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That is reminding me a LOT of the FAILED sinking scheme Israel made on the U.S. Liberty issue. It almost damn well worked too.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 8:43:07 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...we were Allies then, we are now

Absolutely true. As we will continue to be. Heck, many of us came from Britain originally. If this is some kind of Brit bashin thread, count me out. I just noticed A&A's other thread and while I am a proud American, I do not subscribe to his attitude towards our cousins.

But yes, the world would be much different, and dare I say markedly worse, had the U.S. somehow not joined on the side of the Allies.

P.S., lets not bash on Axis and Allies the game either as it was my gateway drug that has brought me to this addiction. I still enjoy a pick up game from time to time. Simple? Yes. Fun? IMO it is.

That is all

mo reb

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 9:37:24 AM

axisandallies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverdog

One thing that disgusts me about WW2 is the arrogance of the US. Yes indeed the US played a role in helping defeat tyranny and help spread freedom.

But to claim you did all this on your own??

Sorry, at least 26 million Russians lost their lives fighting the fascists. And they pushed them all the way back to Berlin. Not to mention all those civilians and soldiers in western Europe who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

I am grateful for the help the US gave, but please don�t say you saved the world, it�s an insult to all that sacrificed their lives in a sad period of humanity.

No one said the US alone saved the world, this is a "what if" so please stay on topic.

< Message edited by axisandallies -- 6/28/2010 9:56:13 AM >

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 9:41:05 AM

axisandallies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

If America stayed neutral in WW2, how would it have turned out? Let's all be civil here.

Warspite1

I like the last sentence - "Let's all be civil here" given what you said about the "arrogant Brits" who apparently "picked" a fight with Nazi Germany (!!) in the Perfect Game thread......

The question though has achieved the questioner's goal and has got a British / US fight going which is always a great shame.

The whole point is, as Roosevelt well knew, the US HAD to enter the war. If they did not, while there were still some Allies left to fight with, the danger was that they would end up fighting a victorious German/Japanese/Italian foe alone. Remember in late 1941 no one thought the Russians would hold on. Hindsight is great, but was not available to politicians in 1941/1942 anymore than it is now.

So please lets not let an immature person like axisandallies be the catalyst for more US/British mud-slinging - we were Allies then, we are now .

Yes I'm immature, If you don't like the topic don't post.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 9:44:16 AM

axisandallies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
...
The question though has achieved the questioner's goal and has got a British / US fight going which is always a great shame.
...
...
So please lets not let an immature person like axisandallies be the catalyst for more US/British mud-slinging - we were Allies then, we are now .
...

+1
axisandallies.
Again, please stay on topic, if you don't like the topic don't post. If you don't understant this please let me know. Also if you feel the need to attack me, please do so in a PM. You are proving my point about the brits, thank you for that.

< Message edited by axisandallies -- 6/28/2010 9:51:34 AM >

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 9:56:29 AM

axisandallies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

Two things historically put the US into the war....Pearl Harbor and shortly thereafter, Hitler declared war on the US. If these things wouldn't have happened it would be impossible to guess how events would have played out. But, no matter what, I think the US would have gotten envolved one way or another if it looked like the UK and USSR were facing defeat. There is no way the US could have stood by and let that happen. The Germans controlling Europe and the Japanese controlling the Pacific and Asia would have been disasterous for the US. I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of 1941 and not 2010.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that if the US would have remained neutral and the Germans and Japanese would have won, then it would only be a matter of time before they set their sights on the US. And if they would have conquered and divided the US then it would only be a little more time before the Germans and Japanese were at each others throats. And who would have won that is beyond me.

Yes I agree with you. The Germans didn't have the resources to invade England so how could they invade the US? Also at the time, I don't see Japan invading the US either.

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 9:58:28 AM

axisandallies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Here's a crazy theory.

The US would be filthy rich!� They can stay away from the war and profit from it by selling weapons to all parties. As if they didn't do this during WW2.� But not getting involved directly would probably boost profits even further.

Anyway... seriously, the US can avoid joning the war in Europe but they cannot avoid the war in the Pacific.

But at what point do they enter the war?

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 10:06:01 AM

wodin

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Not keen on this US vs UK stuff going on here....I have my opinions mainly instilled by fact and historical studies......not war films....

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RE: Ok lets take America out of WW2. - 6/28/2010 10:06:34 AM

PunkReaper

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Stupid tread since its impossible to take USA out of WW2...... can't imagine a scenario where it would have been in the USA best interests to stay out...... trade, raw materials, oil........ got to come from somewhere. As they say "No man is an island"

As for keeping it civil this thread was only made with the opposite intention