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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 7:35:12 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman
And who was that clown the had dressed up as Wayne Rooney today?
Are they keeping the real Rooney locked in a cellar somewhere...?

er, Rooney perhaps? In his defense, a striker can do little IF the midfielders don't provide decent balls. That's their job. If they fail... Remember the poor Weah playing with er Liberia

Warspite1

Tullius - one problem with that comment, Rooney came into this tournament as an heir apparent to Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc i.e. a player who wins matches, someone who conjeures something from nothing, someone who makes the difference. He was mentioned alongside players such as Messi as one of the players most likely to make this tournament his.....

What was so mind boggling difficult to fathom about Rooney (given the season he has just had) at this World Cup is just how badly he played, regardless of what was going wrong around him. There was not one flash of brilliance, no spark of genius to galvanise his team, nothing. His control was non existent, his passing woeful and his whole manner was perplexing.

One of the criticisms directed at Sven Goran Erickson was that he was in awe of the big name players - he would not drop or even substitute Beckham no matter how badly he was playing (witness World Cup 2002 and Euro 2004). Capello was supposed to be different. If so, then just what did the big time charlies - Rooney, Gerard and Lampard need to do to get dropped or substituted??

May be of course this was simply that Capello, like Erickson before him, felt England's strength in depth was so woeful there was no alternative - this is a sad but most likely true explanation.

England were nothing short of abysmal - Johnson had a shocker, Upson and Terry were all over the place and Cole provided nothing on the left. Gerrard was reduced to firing at range, Milner at least was full of endeavour.

Well Sir Trevor Brooking has said he worries about qualification for 2014 given the lack of youngsters coming through - but I think Euro 2012 looks pretty problematic too. Lets hope these prove to be false fears, but......

Anyway, congrats Germany, you were the better side by a million miles (as usual

).

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Post #: 391

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 8:21:35 PM

Historiker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Too bad, the ref didn�t give the second goal for England, it was a nice one. The English would have lost anyway, they were very bad organized and a lot of English players were not having their best day. In the German team the defence was quite good, the goalkeeper desasterous. We have three better ones sitting there near the field (Wiese, Butt and K�pke ).
M�ller was superb today and Schweinsteiger was really good, too.

Now I have to support Mexico tonight as Argentina is much better than them and I�d like to see a match Germany - Mexico.

No.
Finally, there's revenge for Wembley! :) Only thing left for a full revenge is the Title :)

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Post #: 392

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 8:34:01 PM

Cribtop

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I have to say, as a neutral, that I went into this match pulling for England (special relationship and I descend from Oxfordshire a loooong way back), but ended it pulling for the Germans, and will support them for the duration (which may be short given that my money's on the Argentines to win it all). Precision, youth, and quality

vs... I'm not quite sure what for England.

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Post #: 393

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 8:55:50 PM

anarchyintheuk

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The German keeper did okay, couple of rash decisions to go for the ball but no juicy rebounds allowed. I know England was pressing forward on the last two goals but the defense was still abysmal (much less for the first one allowed).

Awesome goal by Tevez.

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Post #: 394

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 9:02:51 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Forgot to mention that it was nice to see a manly game of football w/ England and Germany. No players rolling around in agony or ridiculous time wasting.

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Post #: 395

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 9:31:44 PM

a7v

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It was a nice game with opportunities for both teams, it was also a very fair game from both sides. I do not think that the German keeper did bad, the first British goal was the result of the typical attitude of the German team. Whenever they lead with one or two goals they stop to keep the pressure because they believe that they already have won. The problem is that the German defence is the weakest part of the team and they rarely can withstand a continuous attack.
If the second goal had been given, the result might have been different because�at 1:2�the English had to attack and so were vulnerable for counter attacks which led to No. 3 and 4.
I am not shure how we will fare against Argentina. If we can keep them under pressure we might have a chance but if they gain the initiative, well....

Rainer

< Message edited by A7V_U -- 6/28/2010 7:42:56 AM >

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Post #: 396

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 10:49:52 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Tullius - one problem with that comment, Rooney came into this tournament as an heir apparent to Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc i.e. a player who wins matches, someone who conjeures something from nothing, someone who makes the difference. He was mentioned alongside players such as Messi as one of the players most likely to make this tournament his.....

Warspite, Rooney (or Messi or Pele, in fact I mentioned one of the best strikers in the 90s: George Weah) can do nothing if the midfielders don't do their job. It is NOT the striker's fault in such cases. I haven't seen a lot of decent balls delivered to Rooney in this WC

No midfield = NO game. Unless you use the old and prehistoric game played in the Isles (= UK) in the past and in some Scandinavian states (Norway). Long passes from the defenders that is (a pure LOTTERY that is). A rustic and primitive approach if we had to mention one (but if you choose it, Crouch should be your man)... In fact the Italians use this tactic a lot too (guess why most of football fans don't like the Italian style)

You should be blaming first the midfielders. AND then Rooney, methinks. He is good, but he is not superman... In fact, having Messi in your squad would not have changed anything...

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/27/2010 10:52:23 PM >

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Post #: 397

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/27/2010 10:54:46 PM

LoBaron

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I am really for some technical gimmics to help the referees.

Two games in a row, and we will never know if the result was different without those really off decisions. (No goal for England, offside goal for Argentinia).

I�m not critizising the game, Germany was the better team and currently plays the most beautiful soccer of the tournament IMO, and Argentinia could have beaten Mexico
anyway (although I think they were better until the referee jumped in to help them score) but this is WAY off in 2010.
Personally I don�t know what the problem is. Simply watch a video replay in critical situations that lead to a goal while the game is suspended anyway.

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Post #: 398

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 3:15:26 AM

Misconduct

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I am really for some technical gimmics to help the referees.

Two games in a row, and we will never know if the result was different without those really off decisions. (No goal for England, offside goal for Argentinia).

I�m not critizising the game, Germany was the better team and currently plays the most beautiful soccer of the tournament IMO, and Argentinia could have beaten Mexico
anyway (although I think they were better until the referee jumped in to help them score) but this is WAY off in 2010.
Personally I don�t know what the problem is. Simply watch a video replay in critical situations that lead to a goal while the game is suspended anyway.

You know this bothers me, FIFA already said it will not allow cameras for Goals, which strikes me to wonder, in USA Baseball is so old school it hardly ever has changes, but to keep up with the fast pace of technology they did allow cameras for homerun disputes, and I am guessing will later on allow cameras to review "bad calls" if requested by managers only if there is a valid need for it. Problem is baseball already takes over 3 hours per game, which some don't to make the fans wait, while others like me demand this to keep the game fair.

Same for football, I mean if the goal was allowed by england, there is a good chance the game could of possibly of been played differently, same for Argentina.
I say its time to either add a 2nd Referee to the game or cameras since clearly 1 referee and 2 linesmen can't make it 2 games without a blown call.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 4:34:45 AM

Kubel

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Camera's I like that idea....Go Germany

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 6:26:58 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Tullius - one problem with that comment, Rooney came into this tournament as an heir apparent to Pele, Maradona, Zidane etc i.e. a player who wins matches, someone who conjeures something from nothing, someone who makes the difference. He was mentioned alongside players such as Messi as one of the players most likely to make this tournament his.....

Warspite, Rooney (or Messi or Pele, in fact I mentioned one of the best strikers in the 90s: George Weah) can do nothing if the midfielders don't do their job. It is NOT the striker's fault in such cases. I haven't seen a lot of decent balls delivered to Rooney in this WC No midfield = NO game. Unless you use the old and prehistoric game played in the Isles (= UK) in the past and in some Scandinavian states (Norway). Long passes from the defenders that is (a pure LOTTERY that is). A rustic and primitive approach if we had to mention one (but if you choose it, Crouch should be your man)... In fact the Italians use this tactic a lot too (guess why most of football fans don't like the Italian style)

You should be blaming first the midfielders. AND then Rooney, methinks. He is good, but he is not superman... In fact, having Messi in your squad would not have changed anything...

Warspite1

I do blame the midfielders - which as a unit was woeful in all four games.

But Rooney is not some hapless old fashioned centre forward that if you don't pass him the ball with perfect deliveries he never gets to show what he can do. He has been (for his club) outstanding this season and is a highly talented footballer.

Takes just two stats:

-Rooney has lost the ball by being tackled in possession 32 times, more often than any other player at the 2010 World Cup.
-Rooney completed only 55 per cent of his passes for England against Germany - the lowest rate in the game.

Service is not to blame for either of those stats; Rooney was a footballer totally out of sorts at the World Cup and yet despite this, Capello only thought to take him off when he was clearly injured against Algeria. What the hell happened?
Dammed if I know....

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 6:47:42 AM

Dixie

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Even when Rooney did get the ball passed to him, how many times did it get away from him after a poor touch?

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 7:17:36 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Arse, bugger etc.� It's been **** and we're going home!�

Hopefully this will prove to be the end for most of the current squad, it's time to do what Germany have done and move on to the next generation and the U-21s.

but the U-21s lost to Germany 4:0 last year!

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 7:26:07 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Arse, bugger etc.� It's been **** and we're going home!�

Hopefully this will prove to be the end for most of the current squad, it's time to do what Germany have done and move on to the next generation and the U-21s.

but the U-21s lost to Germany 4:0 last year!

Warspite1

Yep. This was the point Sir Trevor Brooking was making - we do not have sufficient quality players coming through to replace the "Golden Generation" (who the hell coined that phrase? - bet their somewhat embarrassed now!!).

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 7:44:21 AM

Historiker

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Chapeau to the English here and the English team. Really fair sportsmen!

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Post #: 405

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 9:09:17 AM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

IMHO England played the best so far and they were simply unlucky (and they suffered from terrible referee decision - their 2:2 goal was regular)...

Really? I'm going to disagree, a lot. We played well for 10-15 minutes after our first goal. The other 75 minutes we were poor.
Matty Upson should not be anywhere near an international team.
Stevie Gerrard is not a left winger.
Frank Lampard hasn't had a good game for England in years.
Wayne Rooney just didn't turn up.
Gareth Barry is not a defensive midfielder.
Glenn Johnson can't defend.
John Terry can't run.

Only David James and Ashley Cole can really go home with any pride. The U21 squad is pretty good though.

I am impartial here...

What I saw was the best performance England made in WorldCup 2010 South Africa thus far - I didn't say that England played good - I only wrote that they played best thus far (i.e. of all four rather bad games that they had)...

But the England was also very very unlucky...

Let me explain:

#1
Germany was much better at the start and they deservedly lead with 2:0 in first 30 minutes of the game.

#2
Then the England woke up and Germans made mistake of pulling back (they failed to totally dismantle England).

First England lowered the score to 2:1 and then it should have been 2:2 (wrongly disallowed goal - huge mistake by referees)!

#3
In 2nd half England was still attacking and they were rather close to equalize up to around 65 minutes of play when Germany lead with 3:1 and then 4:1.

What could have happened if it was 2:2 at the half time?

Perhaps England would not attack so recklessly and allow swift counter strikes by Germany at 67th minute (and 3:1 that ended everything)?

We can only guess... but the important thing is that stolen 2:2 equalizer robbed England of their chance!

Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 9:38:17 AM

frank1970

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You might be right, but England was playing well only about 10 minutes, and quite good 20 more in the second half.
this means, that Germany was better or equal to the English for about 80minutes of the match.
The English would have lost, there is imho no doubt about that.

The problem for the English now is, that the players and the team manager might use the not given goal as an excuse for their bad playing and so nothing will change. And that would be very sad, as I think England should be one of the best teams in the world. Now it isn�t a team at all, but a group of players.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 11:29:38 AM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank
The problem for the English now is, that the players and the team manager might use the not given goal as an excuse for their bad playing and so nothing will change.

Well, Fabio Capello said exactly that in the press conference

The problem is NO one believes him... Not even the most hardcore England fan... So it's rather surrealistic.

They should bring the cameras. Yes or yes

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 12:34:00 PM

castor troy

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Hmm, not sure England�s potential 2:2 really was a goal. Looking closesly, I seriously doubt it was one.

There is a goal camera most of the times nowadays, problem only is, the referees aren�t allowed to look at a monitor to check their decisions. So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

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< Message edited by castor troy -- 6/28/2010 12:35:36 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 12:37:36 PM

LoBaron

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Clearly NOT behind the line.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 12:56:38 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi guys,

England were a total joke. I knwo the disallowed goal was clearly a massive Official error and the principal stands that it should have been given and that Technology should now be used in Footbal. However, that shouldn't disguise the fact we were an atrocious team the whole tournament from back to front. The only teams who performed worse vs potential was France and then Italy

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 1:23:16 PM

moonraker65

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Quite agree. Whether Capello stays or goes it's time for a serious rethink now. The whole P L thing where English players were supposed to learn from their foreign counterparts is shown to be a sham and not only that as was mentioned above it's now left us woefully short of new talent coming through. Stark times ahead I think.

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Post #: 412

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 1:23:29 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Arse, bugger etc.� It's been **** and we're going home!�

Hopefully this will prove to be the end for most of the current squad, it's time to do what Germany have done and move on to the next generation and the U-21s.

but the U-21s lost to Germany 4:0 last year!

Warspite1

Yep. This was the point Sir Trevor Brooking was making - we do not have sufficient quality players coming through to replace the "Golden Generation" (who the hell coined that phrase? - bet their somewhat embarrassed now!!).

Not all of the next generation of players were actually in the U21 team that lost. Joe Hart is a better keeper than Scott Loach (although Scott was at the mighty Lincoln City so he gets bonus points.)

GK: Joe Hart
Def: Ashley Cole, Michael Dawson, Ledley King, Glen Johnson
Mid: Adam Johnson, Owen Hargreaves, Joe Cole, Steven Gerrard, James Milner
Att: Wayne Rooney (or Peter Crouch)

Some of the current squad are good enough to carry on, or in some cases the alternatives or so poor that there's no other option. However, England managers need to realise that no matter who the player is that when they aren't playing well they get dropped. Until we find a good holding midfielder of a similar ability as Owen Hargreaves (who I really hope gets fit soon) we're stuck playing with Garteh Barry there.

The goal masked the fact that we were terrible and Germany were good, it was like watching the Chuckle Brothers in central defence

I wonder how much Ozil's valuation has gone up after this tournament?

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 1:56:06 PM

castor troy

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what English players really have are good looking wifes/gf. Well Cole had (is he divorced already?) and also Crouch got a quite good looking one. They showed more of them on German TV but I couldn�t remember more (although there were many more good looking ones). Not comparable to the German players� wifes/gf (Schweinsteiger�s as an exception comes to mind)!

Besides all the money they earn...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:05:22 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

Nope... the stadium screens never show the "suspicious" / "controversial" situations... this is carefully screened (so far I think that FIFA only once objected that one single not allowed - in other words "suspicious" / "controversial" situation was showed so far - it was Tevez's goal in Mexico - Argentina match)...

Thus people on stadiums are not seeing on the stadium screens what we see on our TVs regarding replays!

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 415

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:08:14 PM

jonreb31

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

Nope... the stadium screens never show the "suspicious" / "controversial" situations... this is carefully screened (so far I think that FIFA only once objected that one single not allowed - in other words "suspicious" / "controversial" situation was showed so far - it was Tevez's goal in Mexico - Argentina match)...

Thus people on stadiums are not seeing on the stadium screens what we see on our TVs regarding replays!

Leo "Apollo11"

I guess that could be why there are never any riots.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:24:46 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

Nope... the stadium screens never show the "suspicious" / "controversial" situations... this is carefully screened (so far I think that FIFA only once objected that one single not allowed - in other words "suspicious" / "controversial" situation was showed so far - it was Tevez's goal in Mexico - Argentina match)...

Thus people on stadiums are not seeing on the stadium screens what we see on our TVs regarding replays!

Leo "Apollo11"

well, in the German Bundesliga they are and also in the Champions League for example. And the Austrian commentary said the fans were aware that the English "goal" actually was a goal so I asumed it�s the same for the WC.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 6/28/2010 2:25:06 PM >

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:27:50 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

Nope... the stadium screens never show the "suspicious" / "controversial" situations... this is carefully screened (so far I think that FIFA only once objected that one single not allowed - in other words "suspicious" / "controversial" situation was showed so far - it was Tevez's goal in Mexico - Argentina match)...

Thus people on stadiums are not seeing on the stadium screens what we see on our TVs regarding replays!

well, in the German Bundesliga they are and also in the Champions League for example.

This is FIFA and not UEFA...

BTW, I also think that they "filter" what they show on stadium big screens for "Champions League"... there would surely be riots if some "suspicious" / "controversial" situations are showed...

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 418

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:34:50 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Apollo, I think they showed these replays yesterday and everyone in the stadiums could see them. That's why the day after FIFA says "don't show these images [again]".

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Post #: 419

RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/28/2010 2:49:26 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

So while the referees are wrong now and then, 70000 fans in the stadium and the players usually get 7 replays on the big screens in the stadium to confirm the referees were wrong.

Nope... the stadium screens never show the "suspicious" / "controversial" situations... this is carefully screened (so far I think that FIFA only once objected that one single not allowed - in other words "suspicious" / "controversial" situation was showed so far - it was Tevez's goal in Mexico - Argentina match)...

Thus people on stadiums are not seeing on the stadium screens what we see on our TVs regarding replays!

well, in the German Bundesliga they are and also in the Champions League for example.

This is FIFA and not UEFA...

BTW, I also think that they "filter" what they show on stadium big screens for "Champions League"... there would surely be riots if some "suspicious" / "controversial" situations are showed...

Leo "Apollo11"

the Champions League games I�ve been at the Allianz Arena in Munich definetely showed slow motion replays, same goes for Bundesliga games.

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(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 420