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Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:03:06 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		I quickly got bored with the standard soviet defense in FITE, which is to retreat with all major units and build a solid line deep in the interior of the country. However, creating a line of troops closer resulted in all Soviet troops being quickly overrun and a German victory in the scenario.

I have developed a new Soviet strategy that I would like to share, in this case the Soviet player defends all forward areas beginning at turn 1, including use of his tank and artillery units, and as soon as major air shock ends, his air units.

Instead of a line of troops, he creates a screen of troops, guarding major roads and river crossings, using zones of control to prevent enemies from easily moving around him, and deploying his units in great depth to prevent breakthroughs.

I will post some pictures for reference. The first picture is from turn 1 and they proceed up till turn 5. The red lines in the first picture denote the mutually supporting zones of control between units. The yellow lines indicate the placement of artillery units, which are at the bottom of the stack.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:05:50 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 2, southern front




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:08:35 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 3




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:10:35 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 4 I have begun to use my air units, one is visible in the picture, several more are in a line deployed eastwards protecting my rail lines from interdiction.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:17:45 AM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
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Status: offline 		Turn 5: By this turn I have shifted more of my air units to the front line. In two places not shown I have made some local counterattacks with tanks supported by air, artillery, and a few battleships too. Once units are deployed, I don't always leave them until they are destroyed, if the germans try to go around a powerful unit, rather than fight through it, I will try to disengage it, or replace it with a motorcycle unit and withdraw it to a new position.

Loss penalty as of the end of turn 5 is 31 - 118 As you can see, the Germans have advanced pretty slowly.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 2:38:39 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		I think this strategy is better than pulling back everything for a few reasons:

Your opponent is surprised when he sees a soviet player pushing forward with everything rather than the other way around.

My previous experience as a Soviet player was retreating every turn, than just sitting there and plugging holes in the line until my opponent gave up. Playing this way I am fighting intense battles from turn 1, making tough decisions where to defend, rather than snoozing as I demolish 500 bridges and run away. Already at turn 5 I am launching small counterattacks whenever I get local superiority. Every turn has a desperate feeling as I decide how to use a handful of units to cover whole fronts from German advances.


It seems much more realistic and honorable.

So I would recommend other players to try it out. I have posted some turn by turn detail shots of the Southern front to give an idea of the tactics I am using, but if anyone requests I can post pictures of the other fronts.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 4:00:24 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
I think this strategy is better than pulling back everything for a few reasons:
Your opponent is surprised when he sees a soviet player pushing forward with everything rather than the other way around.

The problem with describing it as surprising for the Axis player is that there's practically no strategic surprise involved. I mean that the Axis player knows where every Soviet unit is and where it's headed and where it's been and so forth ( at least in the PBEM games where each player has a playback available ). And I'm pretty sure that a competant Axis player would get over that "surprise" pretty quickly and try to make the most of it anyway. Although I like the idea and think it's supurb. I'd like to see the game that proceeded this way just to see what happens. In the real conflict the Soviets adopted this kind of strategy and the Axis got almost to the surburbs of Moscow before winter '41. And to say the least the Soviet player would have more fun playing his side this way rather than just blindly retreating to the East with anybody that could move ( like I usually do in my FITE games ). I like this idea a lot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
My previous experience as a Soviet player was retreating every turn, then just sitting there and plugging holes in the line until my opponent gave up. Playing this way I am fighting intense battles from turn 1, making tough decisions where to defend, rather than snoozing as I demolish 500 bridges and run away. Already at turn 5 I am launching small counterattacks whenever I get local superiority. Every turn has a desperate feeling as I decide how to use a handful of units to cover whole fronts from German advances.

I love games like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
It seems much more realistic and honorable.
So I would recommend other players to try it out. I have posted some turn by turn detail shots of the Southern front to give an idea of the tactics I am using, but if anyone requests I can post pictures of the other fronts.

I for one would be curious to know how the battles went in the AGN sector of the front. Did the Axis capture Riga by turn 4? That sort of thing. And thank you very much for posting this.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 8:08:04 AM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Actually I use this strategy as well. Apart from artillery which I move to the main line, and the units in Romania which retreat to Fortress Odessa.

Problem is, once the Germans are through those units, they are through them and again advance to face the main line where the same issue as always happens. All you do is slow them down, momentarily, once you run out of those border units their speed of advance will pick up...

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 8:52:08 PM   
Fungwu

 

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[/quote]
The problem with describing it as surprising for the Axis player is that there's practically no strategic surprise involved. I mean that the Axis player knows where every Soviet unit is and where it's headed and where it's been and so forth ( at least in the PBEM games where each player has a playback available ). And I'm pretty sure that a competant Axis player would get over that "surprise" pretty quickly and try to make the most of it anyway. [/quote]

Well Larry there is a couple things here. One is that despite knowing where the soviet units are, the Axis player on average has played this scenario a dozen times, and each time as gone the same way. They have developed habits and expectations based on this. Old habits of course die hard and a German player who knows how to efficiently drive through soviet roadblocks might not adapt quickly to efficiently overcome Soviet strongpoints deployed in depth and constantly being reinforced.

For instance: in this game my opponent in several places has surrounded my forward units, isolated them, and is waiting for them to rot a few turns before attacking. This might be efficient if they were an isolated roadblock and the units attacking them could follow up the forward elements quickly after they are done. But in this case he might have 3 divisions surrounded, but I am coming up with 10 more divisions in reinforcements so he is better off taking higher losses sooner, and gaining some territory, rather than waiting a few turns to take out a handful of divisions and then finding twice as many a few hexes down the road.

Also in two places on the map I was able to achieve a significant tactical surprise. One was at Riga. First of all he did not expect a big battle here, other wise he might have avoided the city totally, because it is very easy to defend. Second I was able to achieve a big concentration of tanks, air, and artillery quickly because there is a lot nearby and my arty was boosted by bringing in two battleships. And finally I was able to bring in a large number of fortress and infantry units from Leningrad by sea. The cool thing here is my rail transport was 1000, but my sea transport is 3000, so my total strategic transport is in effect quadrupled, by choosing to fight in a place that can be reinforced by sea. He might have good theater recon, but he just wasn't expecting me to ship 10 divisions INTO Riga rather than shipping 10 out, and the result is he is embroiled in a big battle on unfavorable terrain that he didn't need to fight.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/29/2010 9:07:32 PM   
Fungwu

 

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quote:

Problem is, once the Germans are through those units, they are through them and again advance to face the main line where the same issue as always happens.


Karri the difference here is that for me there is no main line, what you see is everything within walking distance, there is no line in the rear being formed behind this, although there is alot of reinforcements waiting to be railed in.

This next picture is the beginning and end of turn 5. The Germans launched a spirited attacked over the river that routed all my defending units. The picture gives you an idea of the desperate fights the Soviet player is dealing with every turn. However I shipped in several new divisions from Leningrad, redeployed some other units I had and used engineers I had ready to entrench them. Then I counterattacked with an armored divisions supported by two fighter units, a bomber unit, a heavy artillery unit and two battleships. The tanks managed to rout an enemy infantry and tank regiment, sending them back to the river and splitting the tank regiment into three.

In an effort to outflank my defenses I have managed to lure him into a swamp, any battles here will quickly drain his supplies and blunt his forward units. Next turn my rail goes up to 12,000 and I can continue to ship reinforcements by boat as well, so I am only getting stronger while he is burning out trying to get across the first major obstacle.

quote:

Although I like the idea and think it's supurb. I'd like to see the game that proceeded this way just to see what happens. In the real conflict the Soviets adopted this kind of strategy and the Axis got almost to the surburbs of Moscow before winter '41.


Well, this is my third game using this strategy. The other two were complete victories with the Germans giving up before Mud. I think in one my opponent failed to capture anything other than Minsk. Of course the quality of German players varies greatly, but you can in practice do even better fighting forward against some people.

In WWII the soviets had some differences from my strategy. Instead of fortifying many places they instead attacked everywhere. Their attacks were by units that did not have support and were not coordinated so the attacks failed and then the Germans counter attacked and captured the survivors. I am only attacking a very few places and only with full support from tanks infantry planes and artillery. Everyone else is bunkered down. The soviets also rushed all units in as fast as possible, sometimes rushing units into pockets etc. Units rushing and then attacking with no rest of course did not fare well. I am withdrawing some units when the defenses at either side give way so they cannot by bypassed too easily. A few units made long marches, but most are waiting for rail, and the units that did march in got a chance to rest and dig in before fighting. So there are some definite improvements over Soviet strategy.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 12:07:22 AM   
Andriko


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Status: offline 		Personaly I like Fungwu's method. I have never played an Eastern front monster, but in many of the AAR's I have read, the Soviet player usually retreats and retreats untill he runs out of room. The Soviet players that actualyl stand and fight usually do alot better.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 8:41:57 AM   
larryfulkerson


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Status: offline 		Riga is still in Soviet hands in turn 5 ????  I love it!  This is so cool.  Please keep us updated on what happens next.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 1:42:42 PM   
Panama


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Status: offline 		Do all Axis players disperse their forces so much as this one? Shouldn't they be concentrated at the point of advance to achieve maximum local superiority? Especially so early in the game?

Looking at Larry's AAR and at turn 5 Soviets still in Riga. Big difference is in his game Soviet has pulled well back to L. Peipus, L. Ilmen, Mogilev, Kiev line. Only in SW front did they stay well forward. But if I recall, after that initial pull back the Soviet player did not retreat any more than was necessary to avoid large encirclements.

With recon so high I don't see any surprises possible. Play at zero recon, then you get surprises.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/30/2010 1:49:04 PM >

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 3:04:24 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Do all Axis players disperse their forces so much as this one? Shouldn't they be concentrated at the point of advance to achieve maximum local superiority? Especially so early in the game?


I suppose this might be the reason. Experienced Axis players usually know how to deal with roadblocks:
Engage most(3 infantry regiment should be more than enough to tie down a Soviet division), clear a few possible routes of advance and go through where there is space. All you really need at this stage is a railroad to bring through mroe forces and supplies.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 11:21:59 PM   
madner

 

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Status: offline 		There is a very real strategic surprise, as I didn't expect a major fight that soon.
My goal for the normal scenario is to advance as fast as possible with as few units as possible, so the German spearhead isn't nearly as strong as it could be. At top of that I had some bad planning which resulted in turn burn in turns 2-5, despite getting 4+ rounds, the first took 5 to 6 phases of the turn. That prevented me from being able to get to the artillery units in the south.

The reason I left the units to rot is that in that sector I didn't need more units, this way they will remain fresh and be able to attack the next line, while the spearhead units will rest.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 6/30/2010 11:27:01 PM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		I think my opponent is playing using the assumption that my units are speed bumps. The tactics he uses is to try and surround and eliminate them as they come up. He is trying to spare and preserve his men by limiting his frontal attacks, and generally only attacking surrounded units when he has good support. He is also exploring avenues to go around whenever possible.

However, all this feeds into my plan. My units are not isolated speed bumps, they are mutually supporting positions deployed in depth. If he surrounds one he can't bypass it because there are other units and all flanks and every hex he can move around is under my zone of control. In addition I deploy my units to maximize the value of terrain, so for instance to go around some units he has to go through marshes, and on the other side is just more of my units entrenched and waiting for him. The good approaches with good roads and open terrain are well defended, even so he advances eliminating the forward units every turn, but to spare his men he makes slow progress only attacking when he knows he can win. At the flanks the terrain is quite poor and these are defended as well, but with fewer units. If he tries to push in just one place I can just send all my reinforcements there, he can only destroy a few units each turn, so I can just replace them and limit his advance to just a few hexes. If he tries to push in many places he disperses himself and become bogged down in swamps and other poor terrain.

I don't know if there is any real way to overcome this defense, but If I had to try I would pick just a few places over the whole front and attack ruthlessly in that direction not sparing my men, in the other sectors I would thin out my forces and just advance slowly, surrounded units as I came to them. Because the Axis player sees my units as speed bumps he doesn't want to lose too many men fighting them, but really those speed bumps are my entire front line force, if he threw himself at them without abandon he might have a chance of breaking through, by attacking in an orderly fashion he can surround and destroy part of my force every turn, but he can generate quite enough pressure to make a breakthrough.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/1/2010 7:08:01 AM   
Olorin


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Status: offline 		Excellent thread, excellent idea. At lst something new!

I once used a form of forward defense in a DnO game against Fungwu, but it failed miserably. The difference here is that there is no line, there are a few strong points and defense in depth. Very good idea to try it and see what happens. I am especially interested in the long term effects of such tactics. It all depends on the level of surprise, the German player's competence and flexibility.

If a German player develops an efficient counter tactic it would be interesting to see the results. A possibly efficient tactic would be, as Fungwu suggests in his last post, the concentration of German firepower along a few selected axes of advance. And since the Germans already have 4 panzergroups nicely put together, they can be used as schwerpunkts.
For example, 4.Panzergrouppe: bypass Riga, race along the route Daugavpils-Pskov-Luga*, destroying everything on its path. Protect this route with infantry divisions, which would just defend against isolated Soviet units, effectively a guerrilla war along the supply line of 4.PzGruppe. I don't think the Soviets can defend Riga as you did in the screenshots, throw units at the German spearhead, maintain the defense in depth tactic along the other parts of the front, harass the supply communications of 4.PzGr, while preparing for a siege of Leningrad, all at the same time.
In my humble opinion, if a German player adopts this spearhead tactic, it will all come down to this: will the soviet be able to throw enough units at 4.PzGr to blunt its advance along the main route to Leningrad? If he can do this, while fighting a siege in Riga and preparing his defenses in Leningrad then he is in a good position. If he can't then he has no hope of keeping Leningrad, even against a depleted 4.PzGruppe. The initial negative shock and lack of good units will simply prevent this. This is just theory however, I would be extremely interested to actually see it all unfold .


*I realize that his route is not the most efficient. Using Fungwu's approach, Luga and especially Pskov can be turned into a real slugfest. An alternative route could be Daugavpils-Velikiye Luki-Dno-Novgorod. The point is to race along the line of least resistance and maintain a usable rail supply route.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/1/2010 2:37:08 PM   
Panama


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Status: offline 		The Germans came up with this a long time ago. In 1941.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/1/2010 5:25:40 PM   
Olorin


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Status: offline 		Well, yes but I think they wouldn't have launched an all out assault with only a panzergroup without infantry support.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/1/2010 7:07:41 PM   
Panama


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Status: offline 		Then you didn't know Guderian, Manstein or Hoepner. This is exactly what they advocated more than one time in 1941. If the German High Command had listened then Leningrad and Moscow would have fallen.

Hoepner and Manstein made to sit at the Dvina waiting for infantry but wanting to forge ahead while the Soviets were in total disarry. Then again they had clear sailing to Leningrad if they had given them the go ahead. Only a few formations between them and the city after they crossed the Luga at Sabsk and Porechy.

Poor Guderian made to sit for weeks after Smolensk and just as he was about to jump off to Moscow he is told to go south. He wanted to rush Moscow after crossing the Berezina and again after crossing the Dnieper and Smolensk and flanks be damned.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/3/2010 2:43:59 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Okay, here is turn 9, I am holding them back, but only just...

Loss penalty is 37 vs 175 not very good for me.

Two things to note:

#1 For every merciless horde of nazis I have only one or two units holding them.

#2 Turn 9 and I've still got Riga, Nevel, Orsha, Zhitomir, Vinnitsa.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/3/2010 2:56:32 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Oh yes, here is the rest of the front.

I am sick of retreating in Finland, those damn Finns will pay for every inch with blood. My opponent attacked into my screen of border guards, but my tanks and artillery restored the situation.

I don't want to defend like a turtle in Odessa either, I fell back one river from the Romanian border and so far I'm holding them. Reinforcements from across the sea head north from Odessa to do battle.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/4/2010 6:29:52 AM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Then you didn't know Guderian, Manstein or Hoepner. This is exactly what they advocated more than one time in 1941. If the German High Command had listened then Leningrad and Moscow would have fallen.

Hoepner and Manstein made to sit at the Dvina waiting for infantry but wanting to forge ahead while the Soviets were in total disarry. Then again they had clear sailing to Leningrad if they had given them the go ahead. Only a few formations between them and the city after they crossed the Luga at Sabsk and Porechy.

Poor Guderian made to sit for weeks after Smolensk and just as he was about to jump off to Moscow he is told to go south. He wanted to rush Moscow after crossing the Berezina and again after crossing the Dnieper and Smolensk and flanks be damned.



I know about the panzer generals wanting to do just that. But I said what I said having their superiors in mind, namely, Kluge, Halder etc. I don't think success was as guaranteed as they advocate in their memoirs. Manstein's stay on the Dvina river for example was necessary. Even if he wanted to, he couldn't drive forward all alone, being under attack frontally and his rears not yet cleared. This is a good subject to discuss but not in this thread I think.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
#2 Turn 9 and I've still got Riga, Nevel, Orsha, Zhitomir, Vinnitsa.




< Message edited by Olorin -- 7/4/2010 6:30:27 AM >

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/9/2010 5:29:21 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Turn is now 15.

Loss penalty is 253 vs 46 My rifle squad losses are 42.5 K lost 38.5K remaining.

So far so good, but it is a tense game. I've had to give a lot of ground in the past few turns because of powerful German attacks. My newest line is engaged in a few places but events are not causing me ulcers just yet.

Up to now I have thrown just about everything into the path of the Germans to slow them down. Now I am trying to conserve my units a little better. Across the front I have formed my groups so that I have infantry, recon, engineers, artillery, tanks, airplanes, and forts working together. Mostly the infantry are fortified with the help of the engineers in the front, the tanks stand in the next row defending the artillery. When the enemy tries to snake his units around my infantry I attack them with the tanks and the artillery. If I have a unit that is in contact on 3 hexes and it doesn't have good support I try to use a recon unit to disengage it and an engineer to re entrench it someplace better. I also try to escape with my recon units too, they are good at disengaging. I always try to shift my tanks and artillery back so they can't get surrounded. My planes are mainly helping with attacks, the Germans aren't using interdiction. All I need is to get more reinforcements in a place then I lose in the attacks and I will be gold.

In a couple of spots the Germans marched up to my lines and I used tank and artillery units to make limited attacks to force them back. In other spots my infantry got surrounded and tank units helped them break out again. So it is not just the Germans making attacks, but mine are pretty tiny at this point.

Here is the big picture.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/9/2010 5:30:38 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Status: offline 		Here is the detail of my line east of Smolensk. The yellow spots mark artillery underneath the tanks.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/9/2010 5:45:11 AM   
larryfulkerson


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Status: offline 		I completely missed the battle of Smolensk.  Or was there a battle?  Did the Soviet dude give up Smolensk voluntarily? 



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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/9/2010 8:23:55 PM   
madner

 

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Status: offline 		Every inch had to be taken out of the cold dead hands of Red Army soldiers.

From the German player perspective this is a lot more exciting then the usual game. I'm not that good at AARs, but every turn you have to make decisions on where to crack the armor, and how to keep the pressure on.

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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/11/2010 4:36:40 PM   
Fungwu

 

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quote:

I completely missed the battle of Smolensk. Or was there a battle? Did the Soviet dude give up Smolensk voluntarily?


Damnit Larry, I don't have the patience to make a turn by turn AAR like some people :-)

Basically I ran low on divisions after Orhsa, he came along the Dnepr on both the north and south roads, pushed through my screen of a inf and mechanized division, and then took the city in a direct assault against the tank division I put there. Like I said I ran low on divisions so he was able to move around my small force west of the city pretty quick.

Here is a shot from turn 18. He has 2 supply units here in two different assault groups. I am guessing this means this is an important attack for him, or maybe he just figures the rail road has his other spots covered and hes got 2 supply units to spare. In any case this was a thin spot, but his attack was not unexpected. In fact I might have just lured him into attacking this spot by specifically not putting many units here.

Basically I spotted his panzer columns opposite Bryansk a few turns ago and then he disengaged. I was sure he was resting up for his next push, and this seemed a likely spot. I wasn't too worried though because his divisions here are out of place to support his push towards Moscow further north. I am not too worried about losing Bryansk and Orel, I figure I can tie him down here before he does anything too dangerous, and there is a lot of room in this sector to retreat. My other sectors weren't too bad so I could spare a lot of divisions to reinforce down here, but I put them well back so he can't overrun them.

Looking at the divisions involved its my guess that the northern concentration is all of 2nd panzer army and the southern one is one panzer corps of 1st panzer army. I am sure my 5 infantry divisions and 2 mp units have the situation well under control.

A note: Previously my opponent landed the whole 7th FJ division behind Kiev in connection with a push across the river to encircle the city. It worked and I lost about 7 arty regiments and a tank division as a result, but I destroyed 7th div hq and 1 regiment of paratroopers. This turn he dropped the remaining two regiments on either side of the southern blue arrow. I had enough units to surround and destroy both regiments, so I guess all I have to worry about now is everything else.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/11/2010 4:50:06 PM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		Here is the situation at Moscow, my opponent caught my units a little out of place and has made some good progress, and me without many expendable units to throw at him. Luckily a few tank divisions were able to redeploy, and I got
about a million fresh divisions being railed in. He appears to be attacking with about 6 motorized and panzer divisions. I'd say about 3 are exhausted including all or most of his panzer regiments. I'm guessing his attack will bog down before Moscow is captured. I think this will be a valuable place to bleed him. As he drives forward the terrain just gets worse and worse, but he can't stop, because hey, its Moscow. According to my best estimates, the Germans have lost about 18K rifle squads, I myself have lost 48k with a strength in the field of also 48k. Basically I've got plenty of guys and he is running low, any attrition I can cause now will work very well for me.




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RE: Fite Foward Defense - 7/11/2010 5:00:20 PM   
Fungwu

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline 		Here is the front at Leningrad. This place is a gold mine. Well if you are looking for dead Germans and not gold.

In my picture I have illustrated the possibilities for defensive lines here. I am not even trying hard, but it shouldn't take more than 3. Hell even it does I think it will only be worse for him to lose enough guys to actually penetrate more than 3 of my defensive lines. Many people start defending at the Luga river. You can see the benefit of defending forward here, with all those marshes I can even create a solid line and still have 2 or 3 or 4 divisions deployed behind with the artillery.

He has half his mobile divisions coming straight up from the south and the other half trying to worm around the flank. Good luck, it is all hills and forests over there, all I have to do is string some divisions along the only road.

In my FITE AAR that I am playing as Germans I explained a few reasons why I decided to avoid attacking Leningrad altogether. Here you can see why. Actually the Germans made more progress here than they should have, I had two tank divisions making counterattacks and then I had an early turn end and both were routed, had I not screwed up things would be even worse for the Germans here.




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