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Babbling about CM and the state of wargaming

 
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Babbling about CM and the state of wargaming - 8/2/2002 3:27:31 AM   
Beatposse

 

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The idea here is to get "grand strategy" combined with "eye candy". I love ASL. I love Combat Mission. I would love for a game as complex and developed as ASL to look gorgeous and provide the visceral impact of running troops, exploding tanks, and the other things experienced on the battle field.
When I play ASL it is a purely academic endeavor. My heart rarely leaps into my throat. Everything is very clear and concise.
This is chess with OBA and MC's.
Combat Mission's "eye candy" provides that "running through fire lanes, holding my helmet on with one hand, Thompson in the other" feeling. A lot of decisions made on the battlefield (tactical level) are made by men under this kind of duress. The decisions are made mostly with their balls instead of the brain. The danger isn't real, but it pulls you in a bit to see shells exploding around your boys as they try to get to that chapel at the bridge.
The next step I guess would be paintball in the real world. This is a game of strategy. I guess it is just "eye candy" too (infinite resolution, beautiful textures, first person point of view).
This game near-perfectly captures the running under fire, geeking out and hitting the deck, the conflict between orders and the desire to live.
I have seen many arguments from self-proclaimed grognards who can't stand the direction that wargames are going. I do not understand. The direction has to change or we will all be stuck with the same **** game to play forever. We already have ASL. We already have SP:WAW. It is time to make more games like CM:BO that aspire to the same level of detail and complexity as ASL. Then, someday, we will actually be able to fight photorealistic battles where each and every man, rifle, and tank is represented. They will move realistically, fight realistically, and give a much closer approximation of war and command than CM:BO, SP:WAW, or ASL alone will ever be able to.
Different game developers are trying to capture different aspects of war and combat. Every single approach misses the mark a little. Some are too dry, some give up complexity to try and capture the physical aspect of war.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
Post #: 1
- 8/2/2002 3:28:39 AM   
Beatposse

 

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This was originally a reply to someone, but the comp wouldn't let me post it there. Now it is a nonsensical stand-alone, but I couldn't just throw away all that typing.

_____________________________

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 2
- 8/2/2002 8:30:13 AM   
Big Bill

 

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Interesting thoughts.....There are probably a lot of people who feel the same way as you do......But maybe there are others that feel like me.....I don't think I ever had the time to play a game enough times to master all of it's nuances.. I've spent countless hour's with the Civilization games, C & C, AOE, Harpoon, etc. and have never mastered any of them but enjoyed them all!

I've tried Combat Mission, I don't play it at all now.....I do go back to AOE and TOAOW from time to time.even Harpoon!

I've been playing UV a lot, still trying to figure that one out....But it always get's back to SPWAW. For me it has the sounds, the look and feel that I wan't and talk about the excitement I get when I poke my Shermans nose out and get blasted by OP fire from a hidden Panther!! I hate when that happens but still it's exciting!

In mho I don't think we have to continually push the envelope untill untill we are all siting in simulated AFV's on a playing field somewhere ( on second thought that does sound interesting)

It cime's down to different strokes for different folks..... as for me I have much to much available to me now! As I said, it would take much more time than I could afford ( still have to pay the bills) for me to get to the point of having to look for something else to keep my attention.;) ;)

BigBill

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 3
- 8/2/2002 9:57:24 AM   
Beatposse

 

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Good points. Can you imagine a game so realistic you had to go to OCS to play? ASL almost made me blow my brains out trying to learn the rules.

Many, many games that will run on my 486 are better than some of the new games I have on this new beast I have. I played[FONT=arial]Harpoon[/FONT] way, way more than I ever played [FONT=arial]Rainbow Six[/FONT].

I am a huge fane of boardgames as well [FONT=arial]Settlers of Catan[/FONT] is on my table at least ones a week and ASL is out at least twice a month.

With all these hot computer games, I wonder why I return to the comparatively (sic?) drab games from 1989 or my boardgames all the time. Maybe like a good book, they provide the framework and the old imagination does the rest. I would be interested to here arguments for/against additional realism and first person involvement.

Chess is purely abstract and I have had games where I could hear my heart in my ears and both of us were sweating.

_____________________________

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 4
- 8/2/2002 11:03:04 AM   
junk2drive


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Pong, Space Invaders, countless hours. Then came NES, Super NES, N64, an Apple II e. My nephew got old enough to drive and buy games to play on our Apple. All nighters playing Wings of Fury, Ultima, Castle Wolfenstein, etc. Then we got an RF modulator to hook up an old color TV (9" with tubes) WOW! No more green screen.
Leap to the ninties. Axis and Allies (the boardgame). Playstation is portable, Panzer General. I find myself too old and slow for Mariokart, 007, hockey. Homebuilt 486 at 33, zoom zoom. A friend gives us an HP with 200 mmx and 64 ram. DOS games.
I find a box for $12.00 with Gettysburg, c&c Red Alert, Jane's naval battle. Now I'm into puter games again.
Sometimes I enjoy an RTS like Starcraft, C&C, sometimes Close Combat series, sometime I want to slow down and i like SPWAW. I found a used SP1 for $2 liked it and dl'ed SPWW2. Played that till i upgraded to winXP.
I've seen a lot of BS on this and other forums about what game this and which game that and why doesnt somebody do ...
Find the games you like, play them, try new ones. I have had to upgrade puters time after time just to keep up with the web browsers and their **** popups and other high demand graphics. I spend enough time in front of my puter to justify the expense. And no i dont have the latest greatest stuff. I may have to wait a while to buy the newest game but I have lots to choose from and play in the meantime.
And by the way I still have the apple, nes, super nes, and all the games.

(in reply to Beatposse)
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- 8/4/2002 8:18:35 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Anyone remember the Arcade game Galaga?

I play it on my computer alot. Its a perfect example of the KISS theory. Keep it simple stupid.

It's mindlessly simple, you sit at bottom of screen and shoot everything in as fast a manner as possible while doing nothing more than go left or right on bottom of screen while avoiding being shot.
I will play Galaga when others will want to play ANY First Person Shooter. The reason being, if I just want to mindlessly shoot things, why make it more complicated than it has to be.

I like ASL which is admittedly seemingly the exact opposite. But the manual has a daunting challenge. Accomodate virtually every possible situation, and then write a ruling how to deal with it.
The most important thing to tell a new player to ASL, is you won't use every rule in playing the game, nor will you use every unit type. The board remains small if you wish. Big boarded games are a trap to be avoided, or else you get what you deserve.

The first significant computer game to make me go ewwwww wow was I think possibly Wargame Construction Set II : Tanks. It was basically playing a board game with the assistance of a computer. The board looked like a wargame board and the counters look just like wargame counters. It was all I was looking for.

It's no surprise that every board game wargame that is made, both in the past as well as even right now today, uses the exact same visual level of game unit counter (mainly sillouette, or Nato based icon). It's because that is all you need.

Those games still sell too. I have spent 100s of dollars on board wargames where as I have spent 10s of dollars on computer wargames. The board games are often worth more too.

It's just as easy to find a board game opponent as it is to find an online opponent (just to explode that myth).
With online options you go to a gamer friendly online source for opponents.
With board games you can go to a highschool, a veterans location like in the case of Canada the Legion, any bookstore that sells military fiction, and true gaming stores of course, you can post your interest in colleges or universities, even leave posted messages in your local supermarket. Only the gamer limits their choices.

Getting a wargame opponent is like getting a job or finding a mate.
If you don't try hard and think about it (the wargame opponent eh), you get to sit alone pushing the counters around for both sides.

With the exception of persons living in the middle of nowhere, in a community obsessed with something like an Amish lifestyle, or in a country that still looks like the early 20th century, you shouldn't be unable to find opponents.

I have Steel Panthers because it suits me. I have ASL because it suits me.
I have only just yesterday begun to play by email a game of Steel Panthers (and it is my first ever email game too).
I have an opponent that found me through MMP's web site that will drive 30 minutes to play face to face ASL.
I don't get in much gaming otherwise. it is my own doing currently.

But there is a reason why in some cases some games never change and yet continue to sell ie Monoploy. Sometimes a game can only go so far, before it's as done as it is required to go.

I have no desire to see the battlefield where I have to see every individual soldier in explicit detail. I do not wish to be able to "see" the actual damage dealt to my tank.
If the soldier is wounded I can except a text message saying it happened. If the main gun is destroyed on my tank, I can believe it without actually seeing it. Maybe it's just me, but there is nothing better than my imagination. It's why when I want a perfect experience, I read a book.

In time, it is possible to foresee that we will "run out" of WW2 subjects to portray. It was after all a finite span of time.
I occasionally buy a new book on WW2, but I won't buy yet another book on a subject I already have well covered, merely because the book is "newer".
The event if correctly reported/portrayed doesn't change.

A game or a book, eventually you run out of ways to make it different. This is primarily the reason why given a choice of play Operational Art of War, or spend money on yet another operational level game, I will keep playing Operational Art of War.
Assuming the game is accurate, there is no reason to get a new one. I won't spend money just for some eye candy.

New games are often about selling a new product to a new consumer, that missed the old product. And those people won't be a problem to sell to.
It's always going to be a task though, getting the consumer to purchase what they don't need.
And no matter how you dress it up, if the material is still at it's core the same, then you haven't offered anything new.

Combat Leader, why would I buy it?
Not because the graphics are better, not because the sounds are better. Not as many suspect, because I want to put money in Matrix's pocket out of gratitude for Steel Panthers ( I am thankful naturally, but they made the decision to do all they did).

No my only interest in Combat Leader is solely based on my belief it will be as good as Steel Panthers, but will have software that is purpose made to address a lot of the hassles that couldn't be fixed with Steel Panther's older code.
If Combat Leader isn't substantially better at doing what Steel Panthers already does well (in spite of isolated grumblings), then Combat Leader will have trouble selling.
60 bucks will be a major hurdle to surpass, when you can get Steel Panthers for free.

The graphics, as we speak, might actually keep me from buying it. If I don't acquire a video card able to play the prettier graphics, I won't be playing it at all.

I am also currently keeping track of Strategic Command over at Battlefront. The game looks like Advanced Third Reich in the same way Steel Panthers looks like ASL.
The game doesn't come with flashy eye candy. It is plain feature looking counters on a plain featured map. I would not hesitate to purchase it.
And the perk is it is both cheap, and willing to play on a modest computer. And being a "new" game, it is not going to be some DOS dinosaur.
I don't know what sort of sales it will generate, but I have seen the impatience of those waitng for it. Gamers don't always want eye candy. And this by the way is the home of Combat Mission (eye candy land). You CAN sell a non eye candy game.

Wel this post has to end somewhere heheh:D Guess this is as good a spot eh:)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 6
- 8/5/2002 12:17:30 AM   
Brigz


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beatposse
[B]With all these hot computer games, I wonder why I return to the comparatively (sic?) drab games from 1989 or my boardgames all the time. Maybe like a good book, they provide the framework and the old imagination does the rest[/B][/QUOTE]

If my own personal tastes are any help here, I think you return to those older games because, being basic and more schematic than photographic, they do indeed let your mind do most of the work and that to me is much more fun than having a computer do everything for you. I think this is why I enjoy the more basic look in wargames myself. They are just as complex but are far easier to visualize and thus are, for me at least, more fun to play. I also agree with most of what Les said above. I play ASL at least once a week and for computer games mostly play SP:WAW, SPMBT, all of John Tillers excellent Civil War and Napoleonic games, and Russo-German War, because they are as close to a board game as it gets.

Les, and Beatposse, have you guys tried Russo-German War by Schwerepunkt games? This to me is the ideal blend of boardgame and computer game. The graphics are simple but concise and the counters are nearly the same. It looks like a boardgame and plays like a board game. And one of the best things about a game like this is that the design, by not being overly graphic and complex allows for a much better AI opponent. It doesn't look pretty, but it certainly is fun to play.

What it comes down to in my book is: I really don't care what a game looks like as long as it can simulate historically what it's supposed to and as long as it is fun to play and not tedious and tiring.

So as an example of a game that is great fun but has sparse but very useful graphics, I'd like to hear opinions on Russo-German War as a game and also what you think of it's graphics.

_____________________________

“You're only young once but you can be immature for as long as you want”

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 7
- 8/5/2002 12:16:30 PM   
Beatposse

 

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As an avid gamer and game designer I am very interested in the actual evolution of gaming. I love just about any game I can get my hands on. I have Rook, chess, jacks, Magic: the Infinite Money Pit, Unreal Tournament, Settlers, etc.

I do love the way each of these games is designed. I am always hungry for a game that makes me say "wow, I have never felt that way before" or just pulls me in and dumps me out 14 hours later when I realize I haven't eaten or gone to the bathroom.

Every game that has done this has been a massive paradigm shift to gaming. The one genre of games that has seen the fewest of these shifts is wargaming. Don't get me wrong, I love ASL and hope to play it until I can't see the counters. I play SP:WAW. I raid The Underdogs wargames section for great old games.

But I want the shift from wargame to warsim. I want to see the steamy jungles of Guadalcanal. I want to hear buzzing mosquitos, and actually see why my LOS is hindered by foliage. I want information to be represented graphically.

I believe these things can and will happen when game designers realize that graphics are functional and not just "candy". These games will not just be prettier SP's with 3d graphics. I imagine a more powerful and cinematic effect.

Maybe I am just in pipedream land and all I am going to get is Medal of Honor games with mentally retarded platoon mates running around. The stickers on the box will say things like, "Feel the Ravages of WAR!!!" and "Real-time Strategic war Gaming at its Best". When I open the box I will just have another Panzer General 3. Pretty it is. Combat/War it is not.

_____________________________

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 8
- 8/5/2002 12:27:16 PM   
Beatposse

 

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I am writing even more. I wish I had a life.

Russo German war looks just like a board game. I looked at screenshots, I may buy it after I read some reviews.
I wish to God they would make an ASL game that looked like that. The garbage they are selling as Squad Leader from Hasbro made me quite angry.
I am glad I invested my money in ASL and modules instead of the market. My collection is worth more than my portfolio would have been at the rate the market is going. Besides, stocks never roll snake-eyes and wax someone's kill stack.:D

_____________________________

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 9
- 8/5/2002 7:04:15 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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I some day think Beatposse will be found wearing a "full immersion suit" (that's a term I just made up by the way).

"He" will be the soldier in the game. "He" will be running around in the middle of combat. "He" will hear see smell and feel combat through direct sensory links fed to him all over his body from "full contact realism" (another one of my new terms there, maybe I should patent the idea?).

"He" we start out the "game" in "bootcamp" (and not surprisingly It will be as thrilling as it was for me heheh).
After he has mastered "bootcamp" (and yes flunking "bootcamp" means "game over" begin again), he will become a "Private".
He will join a unit, and be sent to "war".
With some luck he won't get "killed". If he survives long enough, and is able to do the right things he might even see "promotions". And even officer rank is not impossible.

But in order to have long term "bonus point" potential, "He would have had to have gone through the special "upgrade" training, in "officer candidate school".
This special add on to the "basic" game though can be very boring, but it is required to ever have a chance in hell of ever becoming a famous leader of men.

I forsee this as the future of online gaming.

I foresee Combat Mission as the future of nothing though.

Its a silly extension of eye candy at best. The images are crude and don't behave fast enough or interestingly enough to be worth the computer power they require. I am certainly not buying the needed hardware to play those games.

As it goes, computer games are just a way of doging a lack of flesh and blood opponents.
So making them look like more than a board game, is a waste of effort.
Because if an actual breathing individual walks in the door to play a board game, I can turn off the computer and relegate it to its real status in the scheme of things for me.

It's only important that my computer possess a good word processor and a means to chat online.

But if my "war" game sounds interesting to you designers, then stop wasting your talent on making stupid toy games, and get out there and make what they reeeeeeally want.
Because it doesn't sound like they want to play a game through clumsy keyboard controls.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Beatposse)
Post #: 10
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