bo
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Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:
ORIGINAL: brian brian
I think Bo is on to something here, and indeed the first few decisions on which rules options to exclude from the AI have already been made.
It probably would be easier to program the AI to play "WiF Classic" than it would be to play "WiF SuperDeluxe".
It takes a long time and a lot of game-playing to realize this, but more than a few steady players of the game move back from the cutting edge of adding every possible ADG kit to a pile of now more than 6,000 counters and just play Classic these days. Possibly Steve would disagree here, that the programming would be the same. But it seems intuitive to me that the AI will perform better at the lower counter densities and thus fewer decision points of a Classic game as opposed to one with light cruisers, construction engineers, oil tank farms, and sorting out things like this for example: gun divisions that are heavy/light/static/towed/self-propelled/sometimes-doubled/sometimes-not. Ditto on which types of divisions can interact with which types of ships of planes.
Even if you stick to just WIF Classic there are a lot of rules. Consider the following (for debugging naval movement code):
1 - Move an individual naval unit during the Naval Movement phase (unlimited naval moves permitted) and test that it can correctly reach each sea area and port destination. Include the rules about passing Gibraltar/Skaggerak/Panama/Suez/London, going through Kiel, stopping in Brest even if London is not held.
2 - Move multiple naval units as a stack for the same as #1.
3 - Do all the above during a combined action and keep track of naval moves.
4 - Do all the above using submarines (which can go pass Gibraltar and only require 1 naval move if they all start from the same hex).
5 - Do all the above, then undo moves and see if the units return to the correct locations. The number of available naval moves increases when a move is undone.
6 - Do all the above including naval transports and have the TRS pick up units from port (both at start and when passing through a port) and from a sea area (both when starting in a sea area and when ending a move in a sea area).
7 - Repeat all of the above for the Returning to Base phase, forced naval rebases due to overruns, conquest, liberation, and Vichy France formation and collapse, and aborts from naval combat.
8 - Now repeat all of the above when enemy units can conduct naval interceptions. Once an interception is possible, undoing any moves is prohibited. Consider the following cases:
8a - no interception attempted. Moving units stop in the sea area (they can now load units from coastal hexes).
8b - no interception attempted. Moving units keep moving (perhaps after dropping off some units - dropped off units can load units from coastal hexes).
8c - interception attempted but failed. Moving units stop in the sea area (they can now load units from coastal hexes).
8d - interception attempted but failed. Moving units keep moving (perhaps after dropping off some units - dropped off units can load units from coastal hexes).
8e - interception succeeded and moving side stops in the sea area (they can now load units from coastal hexes).
8f - interception succeeded and moving side fights through (either voluntarily or forced to do so by the rules). This variation has several logic paths depending on the outcome of the naval combat.
9 - For all the above, consider that multiple players can be moving units simultaneously during a NetPlay game.
There are rules about weather, DOW surprise, neutrality, cooperation betweenn countries, control of minor countries, and foreign troop commitments that have to be considered in the above.
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Given all this, adding in that SCS units can carry divisions, restrictions on the what the Queens and AMPHs can carry, and Rough Seas are minor additions.
P.S. I might have forgotten to mention some things. But I do know that all of the above have to be considered and coded (it is at least 10,000 lines of code). Note that I haven't even gotten into the details of naval combat in the above list.
Yo Steve I am totally convinced that you have a monumental job on your hands, I did not and will not say anything negative about your work again on these posts, I only thought if less rules were involved you would be able to move on and get this game out, it was not negative in any way, people have to remember me and some other people are total noobs when it comes to this game, you and others can explain to the cows come home about coding, rules, etc. to us neophytes and some of it sinks in and some of it goes right over our heads [well maybe only me] when you look at the posters compared to a year ago there is a big drop not maybe in posts because the same posters post over and over and over but they are the diehards the rest have gone on to other games. They drop in now and then to check out your reports and dont come back till next month[maybe] I am also playing solitare with CWIF[no other choice] and even with the die roll changing combat situations it is boring to say the least. I have to be honest I am losing heart for this game.
Bo
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Printable Version
AI vs Rules - 
Absolutely do not want to stir the AI contraversy again [you know AI or no AI] but this is gnawing at me it seems to me [assuming 
] that for Steve to incorporate the 4,000 rules into code
why not do just some of the rules now and add some later, a few rules and playable is to me better than all the rules and two years down the road before all the rules are done and the game comes to fruitation. I would still prefer a good AI over anything but thats just me, the AI seems very important to many here and to a few, less important. To the purist here I guess I have suggested a trip to hell and I should rot in it. But in reality if Steve is going to do the AI and he said he was than do it and put a lot of the rules on the back burner
think of me as an investigative reporter Michael wanting to know more, I am probably on the lowest rung of the famous "need to know". 
)).
three noodles would organize anything anywhere
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