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I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 9:55:46 AM

JudgeDredd

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...I'm a big fan of the engine. I loved CC1 and CC2. Disliked 3 and never bought 4 and 5 because of my experience with 3.

But I need to say this - I definitely get the impression the enemy AI cheats. Examples are...
1. A battle I played the other day, I had troops on a bridge and they started to get shot up, so I layed smoke and started to run them back...they were tore down through the smoke. This is NOT the case for the AI...AFAIK I have NO LOS through smoke
2. Mortars. My mortars, on the whole, appear very ineffective whilst the AI has almost spot on accuracy. I'm talking possibly a 3-1 kill ratio on between the AI and my mortars in favour of the AI. I don't mind the inaccuracy...as long as it's equal.
3. AI LOS - I was being shot at by troops on the ground. I was unable to see them. I was in a wood, behind a stone wall! Now - fair do's - maybe I couldn't see them...but I am completely unable to do anything - because I have no LOS passed the brick wall...the VERY wall the AI is firing over. (I'll get a screenshot of this one to help, 'cos it's not explained right here). I fail to see how the enemy AI can fire over a brick wall 50 yards in front of them and hit my troops who are in a wood behind another brick wall over 100 yards away and I have LOS over the wall I am behind but NOT over the furthest away wall...so cannot target the AI that is targeting me...it renders your unit completely usless because there's no LOS - so I can't shoot back at the enemy that's shooting at me...

Anyway, sounds like sour grapes 'cos I am crap at it...but I'm telling you...all those points are what I noticed in CoI (that I recall), TLD and this one...

It is a great game...but please...one of you devs put me out my misery and tell me it's not me just being crap but the AI gets help with these things...'cos I fail to see how I am doing anything wrong in places - definitely not all the time. I have made bad moves...but smoke = inneffective. mortars = pretty inneffective (especially looking at the anemy AI mortars.

I'm going to post some pics tonight of what I'm talking about. This has all come to light through the BEST scenario...

nuff said. I'm going to work the rest of the day and play some tonight and post some pics to show my point. (if there is one other than I'm THAT bad).

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 9:56:55 AM

JudgeDredd

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Well Adam Parker just mentioned posts about LOS through buildings etc...so maybe it's prevailant in this too...I don't know.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:00:00 AM

jomni

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So what if they cheat? You can still beat them after some practice.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:20:34 AM

Andrew Williams

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you're just crap..............

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:21:18 AM

JudgeDredd

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I reckon you are probably right Andrew

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:53:49 AM

D.Ilse

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The mortar rant as been long in the making, up there with the UberSchrecks and SuperZooks.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 1:08:31 PM

JudgeDredd

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Well what I would say is two fold...

First off, I'm still having a blast of a trip down memory lane. So that's a given.

Second, I am not really imagining some of this stuff. Take away the fact I'm crap (and I agree that's a likely cause of me losing) - you still have sniper like mortars from the AI and vision to my units through terrain that I do not have LoS back from...those two things I don't understand.

My "whinge" if you can call it that is not about me losing - it's to do with an imbalance in the rules - or at least that's how I perceive it.

If I'm wrong, then I apologise. I certainly don't want to dampen a new release of a fantastic game because of these issues...I just wanted to "put it out there"...so I've said it and my piece has been written. I'll move on.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 2:18:20 PM

Knavery

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I hope someone explains it, because it will definitely keep me from buying the game if that's the case. I don't play a lot of MP and rely on decent AI. If it cheats and can one shot kill you from 50 yards behind a brick wall, then something is wrong. Mortars or not, the percentages of that happening is pretty small and should be rectified if possible without simple excuses.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 2:43:05 PM

JudgeDredd

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Well I should be clear it's not one shot kill...definitely not. But I was being fired at by the German AI and I lost line of sight back to them about two thirds of the way...so I failed to see how they could have seen me. And the mortars are just more accurate than mine...again...not hitting all the time, but definitely more accurate than mine.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 5:17:24 PM

SteveMcClaire

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The German mortars are slightly more accurate. This difference is not as significant as what you're describing, however. The major factor in mortar effectiveness is the cover / posture of the soldiers in the blast area. If they're standing up and moving, they are much more likely to get hit than if they are prone and/or in good cover. But we'll do some tests and review it.

Line of Sight (LOS) and Line of Fire (LOF) are two different things in LSA (actually this was in WaR and TLD as well). If your targeting line is dark green, your LOS is blocked, but you can still shoot blindly (area fire) at the target. There are situations where one enemy team (team A) can see your team (clear LOS), while another enemy team (team B) can not see them but still has LOF. In this case enemy team B can area fire at your team even though they can't see it directly themselves. And the same goes for your teams firing without LOS to the enemy. If you're seeing something other than this, please post a screen shot so I can evaluate it.

Thanks,

Steve

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 5:25:40 PM

Hard Sarge

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still don't explain how the AI can fire though brick walls and you can't

also got to love how your MG team can be set up for 20 minutes and the minute you tell them to fire, they got to set up

but as a old time player, I know that and expect that, so am having fun with it (but still don't care for that part)

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 5:25:40 PM

JudgeDredd

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Yeah - the mortar thing is probably stance as you suggest. Weirdly I thought mortar fire would be more "accurate" on a stationary target and more deadly for troops running in the open. But I think I'll buy that...the times I've seen more effective mortar mortality, I'm pretty sure I got my troops running.

as for LoS/LoF - I'm still unclear how the unit I speak of could have seen me (LOS) AND fired at me (LOF) or simply had LOF - as they were shooting in my direction. My bar towards them turned red 2/3rds along the way...how they could see/fire at me and I couldn't is a little confusing.

Thx for the reply though. I think that cleared up the mortar...though I will most definitely be keeping an eye on it for the time being.

and thanks for bringing this baby back to life

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 5:29:09 PM

Hard Sarge

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Judge

lots of tricks to the mortar, the target, if they up and moving or down and hiding, can the Mortar crew see the target, or is it firing blind, is it firing at will, or is it under pressure

(I normally complain about the lack of ammo more then how well they hit the target, I like putting rounds in the air)

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 6:41:12 PM

JudgeDredd

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My mortars were not LoS so firing blind. That's a factor for sure...but I never want to put my mortar team out there or they just get shot up. But that will be a factor. They are normally not under pressure though

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 9:24:06 PM

Andrew Williams

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There are no AI cheats from behind walls.

If a team is hard up against a wall it can fire through as they can make peep holes etc.

If you are far from a wall you cannot fire through as you have no LOS.

this works for AI or Human player

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:16:01 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

There are no AI cheats from behind walls.

If a team is hard up against a wall it can fire through as they can make peep holes etc.

If you are far from a wall you cannot fire through as you have no LOS.

this works for AI or Human player

I'm glad you cleared that up Andrew...because I was squashed up against one wall...and could fire from behind it. The Germans were the other side of this wall...and passed another wall by about 50 yards...they could fire and hit my troops behind the wall...my troops COULD NOT fire past the wall they were 50 yards past

The picture below kind of describes it
The Germans are RED quite a way from the wall
The Allies are GREEN right up at the wall
The grey box is the walls
The German AI from their position could fire and damage me, but I could not fire past where the green line ends (green cross)

So what you describe doesn't happen did.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:23:30 PM

Andrew Williams

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House wall or a garden/farm Fence?

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:29:47 PM

patchogue

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I thought the los rules let you fire through windows on both sides of a house - not sure this is realistic as the field of vision is very narrow but is plausible.

I don't mind the 'fausts as first rule of tanks is don't let them out on their own - but in TLD and WAR the 'zooks and 'schreks did have impressive accuracy at range. As I've only played one map...and found three Germans I can't really comment on this yet!

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:31:15 PM

Andrew Williams

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quote:

but in TLD and WAR the 'zooks and 'schreks did have impressive accuracy at range

Ha,, most reports are about inaacuracy ........ guess it depends on which side of the scheck you're on....

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:47:11 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

House wall or a garden/farm Fence?

A wall round a field

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:52:07 PM

RD Oddball

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What map was it on Judge Dredd? Specific location on the map would help me too. Thanks!

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:52:41 PM

Andrew Williams

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screenshot of the area?

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 10:55:19 PM

RD Oddball

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Thought it was implied by the "specific area" but perhaps not.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 11:07:30 PM

JudgeDredd

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It was the Best scenario

My troops are yellow and had LOS to the yellow arrow....past that (the other wall) I had a red arrow so couldn't even area fire

The german troops are the blue line and had LoS and LoF (effective) to my troops.

Bear in mins also my troops are in woods and behind a wall and I could not fire at the German AI but they were quite effective in destroying my unit.

My unit (rifle unit) was moving at the time, came under fire and went to ground, crawling towards the wall. When they got there, I could not fire, even though the German unit was spotted (by which unit I don't know...I presume the unit they were firing at as I had very few troops even close to the area) but I continued to take casualties from the german AI unit (which kept appearing and disappearing from view...though even when they disappeared from view, I could still see the firing lines coming from the German troops)

I'm going to drop it now if you don't mind. I'd raher get on and enjoy the game and if I get too mired into this, then it'll likely affect my enjoyment of it. So I'm calling it a closed case from here and it's over to you guys to determine if there's an issue or not.

Good luck

Billy

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 11:10:47 PM

JudgeDredd

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By the way, my other troops displacements were something like this

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 11:15:10 PM

RD Oddball

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Okay thanks Judge Dredd. Initially I was thinking it was a map coding issue but it doesn't look like it or sound like it. Will make a report. Thanks for passing this along.

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 11:15:18 PM

Andrew Williams

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Thanks... that's plenty to work with ;)

have fun and don't feel obligated but any constructive feedback is more than useful

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/9/2010 11:28:46 PM

JudgeDredd

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No...I really don't mind providing feedback. I don't want to take away from the enjoyment of the game...as it is great.

I just wanted to move on from this issue really. I think if I get bogged down in any one particular issue, then my enjoyment would be affected for sure.

To be fair, it could've been alot clearer had I been able to post a screenshot quicker

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RE: I need to put this out there... - 7/10/2010 1:18:13 PM

Hard Sarge

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okay, using Judges picture

here is what I complained about

see the circle, troops sneaking get slaughtered by German troops behind wall, LOF is the white line, that is 3 walls and 2 hedges they spotted and shoot at (and Killed) targets though

while the Black lines are where two of my Squads were placed and couldn't fire back, as the walls were in the way

one of them, is almost right in line with the path the German bullets were using

(another line, do you think you could set the game up, so a Crew weapon would be set up, when it is placed ?, really a pain to have a MG in Ambush, for 10 minutes, finally see a target and then have to wait for the MG to be set up ? what has it been doing all of this time ??)