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Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 11:47:06 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Can any of you who are saying
a) This game is easy
b) The tactical AI doesn't attack
c) The tactical AI doesn't defend

If you say any of the above, can you explain to me this...why am I having such a hard time against the AI?

I use smoke
I use sneak
I use cover and manouvre

And still the AI pretty much takes me out in each battle.

The screen shot below is of Grave. I have to take the bridge (and the only one I've captured by the way is Son - in my game Operation Market Garden could continue until January 1st and XXX Corps STILL wouldn't get to bloody Arnhem!). Now, in past experience I have to move fast - otherwise they're going to blow the bridge. At the start of Grave I set up my .30 cal in the position I hope I can see from...turns out he can't so he's useless...as soon as I start the game, my troops are pretty much mowed down

This pic is within 2 minutes of the start. I've already lost 2 platoons and am about to lose an HQ platoon. 2 minutes later and I've lost another one.

So can any of you explain to me either why the AI doesn't work or what the hell I'm doing wrong because this game gives me a bloody headache!




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Alba gu' brath
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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 11:54:52 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Whilst I'm here, I should point out that the German AI DID bug out of a trench. They had perfectly good cover and perfectly good LoS (helping to take out my 4 dead units). They bugged out even though my force morale is getting low and it was apparent (though perhaps they had no clue) that I just didn't have the forces to attack.

The picture shows where they were, where they were heading and what happened to them. I'm also confused why they were even going there...there were no victory points over there and a bloody great big river!





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Alba gu' brath

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 11:57:17 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Here's a better pic showing what's around. Now they were NOT under fire and if they were, it must've been pretty inneffective. They were also not being assaulted.

Their direction of travel and why they were moving is strange




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Alba gu' brath

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 12:05:19 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Another example of the German AI getting out of perfectly good defending positions and running around like headless chickens. Again this bunch were not under fire. No LoS to them. They had helped take out a fair few units, then they upped and ran about...end result = death.

Perhaps they're counter attacking. But if I had a few units and had to hold a bridge, and they were in good defensive positions with good kill zones, I doubt I'd be sending them on their way to attack.

I do get the impression the AI is having a hard time defending. I've yet to see what it's like from the German pov and will try that. If the AI is hell bent on attacking, then maybe this game (in it's present condition) is only playable from the side attacking. But then the attacker/defender switches - so this could be problematic anyway...




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Alba gu' brath

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 12:11:08 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		By the way - unfortunately - that big red sploshy mess is the remains of the majority of my units unfortunately!

That's the kind of game I get to play!!

I'm thinking perhaps a winning tactic as the Allies is to sit and wait...they will surely come

I'm sorry pointing these out. It's horrible when you've put alot of work into creating something and to have issues pointed out. But it does need fixing. If you cannot do it because it's inherent in the engine, then - well...I don't know...seems like it won't be much fun.

The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to point out that I'm having a hard time against the AI and it seems to be putting up a great fight...but as I've gone on, I realise the people saying the AI is broke seem to be correct.

If I play the game the way I play it, it seems I'm going to get tanked...but if I leave it long enough, the Germans will come and I can kill em...that's the way it seems at the moment

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Alba gu' brath

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 12:21:51 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 727
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		Looks like your guys got their asses handed to them - I wouldn't call that "good AI", I would call that a turkey shoot

But yeah like everyone else has pointed out defending AI tends to think counterattacking is always the best solution even if they own all the points except one. So the game is only playable from the defending side at the moment. As an attacker you can just wait until they come to you, most of the time anyway, and thats boring and unrealistic.

As to your points:
a) This game is easy - I disagree, it can still hand your ass to you if in a good position.
b) The tactical AI doesn't attack - Disagree, the stratmap AI does not attack but thats another issue.
c) The tactical AI doesn't defend - Absolutely agree and they have to fix this asap, IMO its worse than earlier games so something must've been botched up.





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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 1:49:12 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		Hi Judge,

That is indeed a tough situation for the Allies...by far the toughest battle I've yet faced.

What I did was mass my guys in the little pocket of trees just to the southeast of the building....if I recall they are only in German LOS for just a few seconds after they leave the building.

Then when my troops were massed, I popped some smoke on the road and charged the AA gun....you will take more casualties, but the crew dies fairly quickly from concentrated close range fire..

I think about then the Germans blew the bridge...

ChadG

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Post #: 7
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 4:28:12 PM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		How many squads are providing suppression fire? I generally have one or two base of fire squads and one maneuvering squad. If the enemy hasn't made his presence known, I will fire on suspected enemy positions. After 15-30 seconds of suppression fire, I move the maneuvering squad (which, hopefully has not been spotted) to either a location where they can either attack a suppressed enemy or provide suppression fire while another squad advances.

Artillery and machine guns make the job of suppression easier, but I still use one squad as a base of fire, since they should have the LOS to any potential threats that could interrupt the maneuver squad's movement.

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Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 7:02:08 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		What a mess at the bridge.
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Another example of the German AI getting out of perfectly good defending positions and running around like headless chickens. Again this bunch were not under fire. No LoS to them. They had helped take out a fair few units, then they upped and ran about...end result = death.

Perhaps they're counter attacking. But if I had a few units and had to hold a bridge, and they were in good defensive positions with good kill zones, I doubt I'd be sending them on their way to attack.

I do get the impression the AI is having a hard time defending. I've yet to see what it's like from the German pov and will try that. If the AI is hell bent on attacking, then maybe this game (in it's present condition) is only playable from the side attacking. But then the attacker/defender switches - so this could be problematic anyway...






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"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/11/2010 7:56:13 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Im playing 2nd battle of Best bridge as Germans.I have all units at bridge and canal house.US ai runs around in circles in centre of map yelling "get down" etc for entire 15 minutes.Doesnt attack or come near my positions nor does it take the unguarded VL's that are near it.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 10
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 4:49:30 PM   
mavraamides


Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Looking at the first picture, I would ask you this:

Why are your guys all out on the bridge and road in plain sight? I would have tried to use those trees for cover and snuck up on Gerry that way.

My attitude with CC is that to be seen is to be killed. So I'm always hiding and sneaking. Then when I do find the enemy, I usually give him a healthy dose of indirect fire before I engage him in a firefight.

The key (at least for me) is to move very slowly and carefully. Try to not be seen until you have gathered overwhelming force against isolated units and then attack with all at once so he is easily pinned down and suppressed.

In your case, wouldn't even try to advance without some indirect fire support. I might have tried to approach through those trees but no way I try to run across that bridge or road!

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Post #: 11
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 5:21:06 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		They start off there from what I remember...you have to manouvre them round to the bridge and they didn't stand a chance as they are immediately in LOS with the Flak gun and infantry to the south of the Flak gun....IIRC

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 12
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 5:30:19 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2493
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline 		first time thorough this it handed me my butt also Judge..........after close examination of the setup map you also have one area just to the SE of the bunker (top left corner of map) that is out of sight for AA gun...........I let my 60mm take out the AA gun and then smoke that whole area while I manuver with one group for the bridge (bunker group) and charge like Jeb Stuart with the others on whats left of the AA/others by the bridge...............took minimal casualties and got the bridge!!!

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Post #: 13
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 6:42:47 PM   
mavraamides


Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Isn't there a setup phase?

That was really the only spot you could start from?

I must not have played this map yet, I've always been able to start with all my units in adequate cover. If I had to start with those guys on the road, I'd have them all sprinting into the building and hope most of them make it alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

They start off there from what I remember...you have to manouvre them round to the bridge and they didn't stand a chance as they are immediately in LOS with the Flak gun and infantry to the south of the Flak gun....IIRC

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Post #: 14
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 7:05:03 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Well I'm not on here trying to make excuses for my bad gaming - There could well have been "another" setup area. I could well have ran them into the building. However - past experience in this game has told me (as have other players) I need to rush the bridges...not sneak about. I've tried sneaking and I've lost all but one bridge so far.

I understand I suck at this game (and many others).

The idea of the thread initially was to explain to the people who were saying the AI was lacking that it kicks my arse - then I started noticing the AI leaving good defensive positions to be killed.

Oh - and as an addendum - the building afforded very little cover anyway. The whole area (from my limited time on the map) was pretty much a killing ground!

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 15
RE: Anyone anti AI please read... - 7/12/2010 8:19:06 PM   
mavraamides


Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Well I'm not on here trying to make excuses for my bad gaming - There could well have been "another" setup area. I could well have ran them into the building. However - past experience in this game has told me (as have other players) I need to rush the bridges...not sneak about. I've tried sneaking and I've lost all but one bridge so far.

I understand I suck at this game (and many others).

The idea of the thread initially was to explain to the people who were saying the AI was lacking that it kicks my arse - then I started noticing the AI leaving good defensive positions to be killed.

Oh - and as an addendum - the building afforded very little cover anyway. The whole area (from my limited time on the map) was pretty much a killing ground!


Well, to be fair, taking bridges is really the hardest part of the game because if you take too long, they blow the bridge and you're screwed.

This just looks like an exceptionally difficult starting situation to me. I think I would struggle with it and I normally wax the AI.

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