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Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/20/2010 3:28:07 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Hey guys:

I'm sorry but simul turns is simply creating too many MORE issues. I under estimated what this would do. The entire PBEM system is simply better off in an IGO-UGO mode. I am looking at a few test games and most are locked or cannot move for now so I will spending time reverting back to the old code base and creating a 1.08.04 build. I do not have an ETA. Sorry but there it is! Will keep you posted!

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

Post #: 1

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/20/2010 9:59:35 PM

Yearworld

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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Hi Marshall,

If we are already playing a 1.08.03 game can we keep playing? Simul diplomacy worked okay the first time we did it and there are 7 human players playing. Or should we start the game over because we will eventually lock up?

Thanks,

Yearworld

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 2

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/21/2010 2:31:02 AM

Dancing Bear

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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Well Marshall, that is very disappointing news, but I am a little confused. Does it work when there are 7 human players, and the problems only pop up with there is a mix of human and AI players? If so, can you not run in two modes, IGO-UGO for all players in AI-human games, and sim for just human games, which have to be 99% of games?

I do understand the pressure to get a new addition of the game out. The list of fixes suggests that with one or two minor exceptions, 1.08.04, is essentially bug free, something that is a big step forward in itself, and badly needed.

If you can not do sim dip now, what about the other PBEM speed options discussed, namely 1) players not at war can skip reinforcement and place reinforcements during the land phase, 2) a button on the combat screen to allow the AI to complete battle and reduce file exchanges for battles, 3) a "let the AI complete my next land phase" option on the skip menu (same as the host option to let the AI do a turn), and 4) make Spain first in the eco phase? Combined these might do as much as sim dip.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 3

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/21/2010 6:24:23 PM

NeverMan

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I'm baffled as to why these issues can't be solved, amazing.

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 4

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/22/2010 5:53:34 AM

Thresh

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline

He didn't say they couldn't be solved, he said the game is better off in IGO-UGO.

Do you prefer he spend the time and energy solving this issue, or setting it aside to work on things like the AI and other issues that can be solved sooner rather than later?

Todd

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 5

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/22/2010 2:28:58 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

A complete PBEM rewrite would be the proper way and I don't have the cycles to do that for now. Simul diplomacy seems to be OK for now and I may be able to stick with that for now BUT Eco is a little tougher.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to Thresh)

Post #: 6

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/22/2010 2:50:28 PM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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Sounds like another "non-robust code" issue..... strange how this keeps coming around.

To Thresh: I give a **** about the AI, it's ALWAYS going to suck... it doesn't matter what Marshall does it will ALWAYS suck.

The only other issue I really care about at the moment is that I spend 20 minutes downloading 20 files so I can spend 20 seconds playing my turn and then another 2 minutes compressing and uploading my file. To me, that's priority #1 and Simul is priority #2.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 7

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/23/2010 12:35:21 AM

Sorta

Posts: 189
Joined: 11/30/2009
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Simul Dip would be a win - also some of the smaller improvements already mentioned by various posters e.g. file aggregation/peacetime phase removal etc.

Is there a list of suggested PBEM improvements and estimated coding time?

I'm with Neverman on dropping the AI fix and focusing on PBEm. The AI is so far of human abilities in a game as complex as this plus the huge Dip side.

And of course fixing bug 697...
http://eiamantis.babel.com.au/view.php?id=697

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 8

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/23/2010 2:23:53 AM

Dancing Bear

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

A complete PBEM rewrite would be the proper way and I don't have the cycles to do that for now. Simul diplomacy seems to be OK for now and I may be able to stick with that for now BUT Eco is a little tougher.

Well Marshall, if sim dip seems to be working, please keep it in. There are 3 x as many dip turns as eco turns, so this feature alone would be a big leap forward. If you can make it so you don't have to load the dip phases of other players (i.e. the file from the players whose computer resolves the dip phase over-writes everything anyways, so why load the dip files from the other phasyers?), then you make Neverman a little happier too.

When you re-write the IGO-UGO code for the eco phase, can you please move Spain to first in the eco phase? This way, when Spain is going last, they can get a combined land-eco phase, which would help, and if you have the code open anyways, worth a look at.

< Message edited by Dancing Bear -- 7/23/2010 2:33:51 AM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 9

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/23/2010 4:33:53 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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OK, I have 2 games that are locked on the last player's land combat phase (France/Spain) and we need a fix.

Die rolling in 1.07 is broken so we either roll back to 1.07 with the 3rd party combat, or we wait for a 1.08 fix.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 10

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 12:56:23 AM

Dancing Bear

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Hi Del
according to a note on Mantis, Marshall has sent you a EXE that fixes this. Did you this fix not work?

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 11

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 4:43:14 AM

Thresh

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From: KCMO
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quote:

The only other issue I really care about at the moment is that I spend 20 minutes downloading 20 files so I can spend 20 seconds playing my turn and then another 2 minutes compressing and uploading my file. To me, that's priority #1 and Simul is priority #2.

Get off the dialup, you'll spend less time downloading. :-)

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 12

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 7:34:32 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi Del
according to a note on Mantis, Marshall has sent you a EXE that fixes this. Did you this fix not work?

No, doesn't make any difference.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 13

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 2:55:47 PM

Dancing Bear

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Hi Del
Well, that does not sound too hard to fix, the combat files of the phasing player need to initiate the dip phase. Did you try re-running the land phase prior to the combats? How was sim dip working otherwise, when there was not combat at the end of the land phase?

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 14

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 3:07:39 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

A complete PBEM rewrite would be the proper way and I don't have the cycles to do that for now.

"For now" means you are not ruling out a PBEM revision later to speed up PBEM play, correct? I think this is what some folks need to understand. Sim dip should help considerably for now, but additional PBEM streamlining and file exchange improvements over time will also be needed.

A complete PBEM rewrite sounds like a major code revision. Probably best to focus next on remaining bugs, editor enhancements, classic map and OOB scenarios, and some modest AI improvements. Then tackle the PBEM code again later?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 15

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 3:58:46 PM

Dancing Bear

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I agree that there is certainly enough in 1.08.04 that once sim dip is complete, it needs to come before anything else happens. Hopefully Marshall can figure it all out relatively soon.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 16

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 8:28:36 PM

NeverMan

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Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

quote:

The only other issue I really care about at the moment is that I spend 20 minutes downloading 20 files so I can spend 20 seconds playing my turn and then another 2 minutes compressing and uploading my file. To me, that's priority #1 and Simul is priority #2.

Get off the dialup, you'll spend less time downloading. :-)

LOL. For the record I use cable and have a slightly new computer. It's not my comp, it's the server, obviously, as it usually is.

(in reply to Thresh)

Post #: 17

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 8:29:51 PM

NeverMan

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Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

A complete PBEM rewrite would be the proper way and I don't have the cycles to do that for now.

"For now" means you are not ruling out a PBEM revision later to speed up PBEM play, correct? I think this is what some folks need to understand. Sim dip should help considerably for now, but additional PBEM streamlining and file exchange improvements over time will also be needed.

A complete PBEM rewrite sounds like a major code revision. Probably best to focus next on remaining bugs, editor enhancements, classic map and OOB scenarios, and some modest AI improvements. Then tackle the PBEM code again later?

Yes, we get it, you're interested in AI.... why? I have no idea. Are you so terrible at this game that you think the AI is going to offer a challenge?

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 18

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/24/2010 9:00:27 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

Yes, we get it, you're interested in AI.... why? I have no idea. Are you so terrible at this game that you think the AI is going to offer a challenge?

As usual, NegativeMan makes yet another inane comment.

I do believe I was perfectly clear in saying that I'm interested in fixing remaining bugs, editor enhancements, classic map and OOB scenarios, and, oh yes, some AI work. Besides acknowledging continued PBEM enhancements. And as usual, I'm making reasonable suggestions for moving forward and the other fellow chooses to troll.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 19

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/25/2010 12:06:18 PM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi Del
Well, that does not sound too hard to fix, the combat files of the phasing player need to initiate the dip phase. Did you try re-running the land phase prior to the combats? How was sim dip working otherwise, when there was not combat at the end of the land phase?

What happens is that the phasing player's land combat phase won't load into the games of any other player once the combat phase is finished. It isn't a problem when the last player to play doesn't have a land combat phase, it goes straight into simul dip from there, but if (for example) Spain moves last, creates a land and a land combat phase, the other players' games won't load the Spanish land combat phase and can't move on to diplomacy.

There is only one workaround I've found -- immediately prior to the last player's phase, make the last player (France or Spain) the game host and send out backups. The last player then plays his turn, plays his diplomacy phase, and immediately after that hands host rights back to the original game host and sends out a backup again.

It still needs a fix though.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 20

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/25/2010 1:03:26 PM

Dancing Bear

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Is the sim dip working fine otherwise?

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 21

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/26/2010 2:23:14 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Is the sim dip working fine otherwise?

Yes, it's working fine. Once you get to the dip phase everyone can play their dip turns simultaneously except Spain. Spain has to wait for everyone else, then play dip & reinf, then everyone plays reinf in turn.

Del

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 22

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/26/2010 3:12:38 AM

Dancing Bear

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Brilliant, that is fantastic to hear!

I guess Spain can not skip its dip or reinforcement phase? Is Spain blocked from skipping these phases? Or does the game make GB go last if Spain skips?

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 23

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/27/2010 1:46:29 AM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi Del
according to a note on Mantis, Marshall has sent you a EXE that fixes this. Did you this fix not work?

No, doesn't make any difference.

Del:

The problem exist in the PBM file that was created with the older EXE so you may need to backup and redo land with new EXE.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 24

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/27/2010 1:53:06 AM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Sounds like another "non-robust code" issue..... strange how this keeps coming around.

To Thresh: I give a **** about the AI, it's ALWAYS going to suck... it doesn't matter what Marshall does it will ALWAYS suck.

The only other issue I really care about at the moment is that I spend 20 minutes downloading 20 files so I can spend 20 seconds playing my turn and then another 2 minutes compressing and uploading my file. To me, that's priority #1 and Simul is priority #2.

LMAO! Wow! I guess I won't use you as a therapist!

For the record: Not a non robust code issue BUT an issue where I am changing something to act in a way that it was not designed which is never easy nor always successful i.e. screen doors on submarines, using knives in gun fights, etc.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 25

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/27/2010 2:43:18 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Del:

The problem exist in the PBM file that was created with the older EXE so you may need to backup and redo land with new EXE.

Marshall, as per my email to you, that didn't help. The same issue still exists.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 26

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/27/2010 2:44:33 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Brilliant, that is fantastic to hear!

I guess Spain can not skip its dip or reinforcement phase? Is Spain blocked from skipping these phases? Or does the game make GB go last if Spain skips?

Spain cannot skip dip phase or everything breaks. I haven't figured out whether Spain can skip reinf phase, but given that Spain must play dip there's no point Spain not playing reinf.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Dancing Bear)

Post #: 27

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/27/2010 3:03:07 AM

Dancing Bear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

Spain cannot skip dip phase or everything breaks. I haven't figured out whether Spain can skip reinf phase, but given that Spain must play dip there's no point Spain not playing reinf.

It would be a very good idea if Spain's ability to skip diplomacy was disabled.

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 28

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/29/2010 4:27:09 PM

NeverMan

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Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Sounds like another "non-robust code" issue..... strange how this keeps coming around.

To Thresh: I give a **** about the AI, it's ALWAYS going to suck... it doesn't matter what Marshall does it will ALWAYS suck.

The only other issue I really care about at the moment is that I spend 20 minutes downloading 20 files so I can spend 20 seconds playing my turn and then another 2 minutes compressing and uploading my file. To me, that's priority #1 and Simul is priority #2.

LMAO! Wow! I guess I won't use you as a therapist!

For the record: Not a non robust code issue BUT an issue where I am changing something to act in a way that it was not designed which is never easy nor always successful i.e. screen doors on submarines, using knives in gun fights, etc.

Not to give you a hard time but that's kind of the definition of robust code: being able to easily modify and adapt the code.

Anyways, eh, it's whatever. I've given up hope.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 29

RE: Probably giving up Simul for now! - 7/30/2010 6:02:01 AM

bresh

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Why have diplomacy result happen during diplomacy phase.
Add a extra phase between dip and reinf.
Where all it does is run results of diplomacy ?
Though there is still a problem about where it runs, since Spain is both last in dip, and first in reinf(phase after dip).

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 30