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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: Last Stand Arnhem >> Half-assed Maps

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Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 6:21:42 PM

xe5

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Why is the top 2/3 of Ginkel Heath flat as a pancake (2.5 m), despite shading which indicates various hillocks, and the bottom 1/3 of the map is a hodgepodge of seemingly random elevations?

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 6:28:40 PM

xe5

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Zoomed in portion of the above Ginkel Heath map screenshot from Mafi's map tool. Values are in 1/2 meter increments. Section circled in red shows a 5.5 meter differential (16-5) between adjacent 2x2 meter terrain elements. There is no recognizable correlation between the elevation coding and the map picture.

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 6:41:59 PM

xe5

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The Grave and Arnhem RR Bridge maps use what can only be described as a 'rough draft' elevation scheme, both with 4 meter (13 foot) differentials between elevation contours. The Grave sample shown here features an 'invisble' 4m. deep moat around the Flak Tower, various other 4m 'holes', a bi-level bridge and tri-level single-story building.

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 7:08:47 PM

xe5

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Valkenswaard (30 Corps entry map) looks pretty flat but the elevation coding reveals the village sits atop a phantom hill with several random depressions (circled in red), one of which is entirely inside an two story building. Thankfully the elevation differentials are only 1/2 meter increments but again, buildings are coded with multiple elevations and the elev. coding doesnt match the picture. The only contour shading pictured is at the two bridges where, rather than using the standard 1/2 meter differentials, the bridges are abruptly 1.5 meters higher than their road approaches.

The area circled in pink shows a portion of a stream (3.5 m.) not coded the same (2 m.) as the rest of the streams although even those streams have lots of adjacent 'water' elements coded at different elevations.

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 7:46:51 PM

VicKevlar

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I knew something weird was up around that damn flak tower.

Good catch Mick!

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 8:26:12 PM

Dundradal

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Nice detective work! I think you just created a few more bug entries to be resolved!

Although I don't know if the topic "half-assed maps" is a correct description.

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Post #: 6

RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 8:36:11 PM

CaptRio

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OMG this is huge!!!

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Post #: 7

RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 9:01:46 PM

xe5

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There are what I consider to be major errors in the elevation coding of every map Ive looked at so far (~12). There's no evidence yet of any standardization being involved. "Half-assed" is being charitable.

Next example - the top left corner of Grosbeek where the map's only recognizable elevation feature is found. Looks to be a plateau sloping away generally as shown by the red lines...

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 9:03:07 PM

xe5

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Grosbeek as coded...

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 9:49:01 PM

stolidog

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I noticed some elevation vs graphic discrepancies as well playing Renkum Heath last night. The track that runs north to south in the field on the west side of the map appears elevated, but when checking elavtions by right clicking across the road and the field, it is all 0.5 meters

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 10:07:52 PM

TheReal_Pak40

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xe5, I noticed the same thing with the Ginkel Heath map. On other maps I can recall several other questionable roads that were shaded as raised but not, ditches that were not properly coded with lower depth etc.. One of the maps that had a river at the same elevation as the bank.

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RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 10:34:36 PM

Platoon_Michael

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Never mind.
I shouldn't hi-jack this thread to place my displeasure.

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 7/20/2010 10:46:28 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Half-assed Maps - 7/20/2010 10:38:11 PM

Andrew Williams

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michael please clarify...

In retail WaR or the recent beta patch.......?

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Post #: 13

RE: maps - 7/20/2010 10:44:12 PM

RD Oddball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

Why is the top 2/3 of Ginkel Heath flat as a pancake (2.5 m), despite shading which indicates various hillocks, and the bottom 1/3 of the map is a hodgepodge of seemingly random elevations?

Obviously a bug. Thanks for pointing it out. Will review the other stuff you pointed out as well. Some stuff obviously got past us. Some of the stuff you're posting about doesn't look at all consistent with what we were seeing on our end during coding. I'm preparing an example to show via double-checking what you're reporting and a compariing the elevation TGA's vs. what 5CC is outputting. There's some inconsistency there. At first blush you may have uncovered a bug with the 5CC map editor where the coarseness of the elevations are concerned. Will post shortly to show what I mean.

Calling them half-assed is definitely not a fair characterization. A lot of work and effort went into them.

< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 7/20/2010 10:54:40 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: maps - 7/20/2010 10:45:57 PM

RD Oddball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

You want to see bad go see the WAR maps.
You can't even hide behind houses anymore.

These issues were fixed in the patch. If you're still seeing problems please post in the WaR forums in the tech support forums and we'll double-check them.

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Post #: 15

RE: maps - 7/20/2010 10:54:07 PM

Platoon_Michael

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I stopped playing WAR after the last Beta Patch due to the Setz map CTD and the invisible house on Shonberg.
Which btw Shonberg is the worst looking map EVER made for CC.

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Post #: 16

RE: maps - 7/20/2010 10:57:34 PM

RD Oddball

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Okay thanks Michael. Just wanted to be sure we were talking about the same thing. I posted a fixed text file of Setz and the Shonberg coding is fixed as well and will go out with the next patch. It's being addressed.

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Post #: 17

RE: maps - 7/20/2010 11:04:21 PM

RD Oddball

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Here's the elevation TGA put into 5CC for Grave. As you can see nice smooth elevations with the "holes" not visible. I have it opened in Photoshop to be able to show how the elevation values translate. I have the cursor positioned over the bridge. 41 in RGB equals 20 units in game elevation scale. Obviously 5CC is rounding down. A reasonable way to handle odd values in my estimation. Perhaps that rounding is part of the issue here. The hard edge between the bridge and surrounding terrain is required by the "under bridge" element function. That part is on purpose and required.

Obviously not in all cases. There are some obvious errors you've pointed out. And we thank you for the observations. They'll get taken care of.

Shortly, I'll re-post that lower corner of Grave as a side by side comparison between the TGA and 5CC. Perhaps we'll have to do some manual editing of the elevation values to fix some of the coarseness in elevation.

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< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 7/20/2010 11:07:33 PM >

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RE: maps - 7/20/2010 11:07:09 PM

RD Oddball

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Thought I could conserve post space by putting both images in one post but it wouldn't let me do that. Sorry. Here's the 5CC screenshot. Regardless please keep posting and if there are any other issues they'll be taken care of.

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< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 7/20/2010 11:09:57 PM >

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RE: maps - 7/20/2010 11:20:47 PM

Neil N

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

I stopped playing WAR after the last Beta Patch due to the Setz map CTD and the invisible house on Shonberg.
Which btw Shonberg is the worst looking map EVER made for CC.

You haven't seen a lot of maps then...there are plenty of maps that have been made for CC that are far worse looking

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RE: maps - 7/21/2010 1:07:43 AM

squadleader_id

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Hmm...looks like the upcoming patch should wait until these problem maps are sorted out.
I've noticed glitches in ditches and elevated roads...but elevation coding on those maps xe5 pointed out looks really ugly!

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Post #: 21

RE: maps - 7/21/2010 1:26:18 AM

RD Oddball

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Five maps with elevation issues. They'll be taken care of. If you find others please post them. Thanks.

< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 7/21/2010 1:27:26 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: maps - 7/21/2010 1:41:55 AM

Andrew Williams

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Mick, Vic... all we need now is Drill and it will be just a like a retirement village.

arrrgghhh... back in my day we had to take a village.......

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Post #: 23

RE: maps - 7/21/2010 2:10:08 AM

xe5

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Oddball - the elevation coding Im seeing, both in-game and w/ map tool, is so borked I was positive y'all had freehanded it rather than using grayscale bump mapping. On the Grave grayscale TGA you can see two dark (low) spots to the right of the flak tower location. Understand how much effort is involved but where was the QA? Whoever coded those maps for terrain only had to click on the elevation tool to see the values 5CC assigned from the bumpmap.

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RE: maps - 7/21/2010 2:25:51 AM

mooxe

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The coders.... were they the same ones from TLD and WAR? Maybe its worth checking them as well. I do know elevations are coded into TLD maps but theres no obvious sign of them by looking at the map. No specific examples, I just recall having to right click the map everywhere due to that.

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RE: one cheek maps - 7/21/2010 3:42:53 AM

xe5

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Helmond - stream #1 is 1 m. lower than the surrounding terrain. Stream #2 is the same level as surrounding terrain.

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RE: one cheek maps - 7/21/2010 4:00:05 AM

squadleader_id

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

Helmond - stream #1 is 1 m. lower than the surrounding terrain. Stream #2 is the same level as surrounding terrain.

Check also stream & bank elevation coding glitch on map files: Bemmel, Bridge9, DrelNrth.
I've only checked maps A-D though...

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RE: one cheek maps - 7/21/2010 4:30:32 AM

Dundradal

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Wow...go away for a few hours and learn quite a bit.

Seems like there are bugs in both situations here...

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Post #: 28

RE: one cheek maps - 7/21/2010 2:57:15 PM

xe5

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Arnhem Road Bridge map:

1. Coarse 4 meter increments rather than smooth 1/2 meters
2. 'MC Escher effect' where the bottom of the stairs are 20m. high and the top of the stairs are 4m. high. On the north end of the bridge are similar stairs that are flat.
3. Tri-level one story building where a parts of the floor are higher than parts of the roof. (tip: each building should occupy terrain sharing the same elevation)
4. Bridge wall shadow (blue circle) indicating an upward sloping elevation is coded as a flat 20m height.

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RE: one cheek maps - 7/21/2010 4:44:10 PM

TheReal_Pak40

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xe5, good find with that building.

Check out this site for some good pics around arnhem. There's a good shot of Germans walking in a deep ditch on the side of the road. It's close to 2m deep.

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