AI teleporting cheat. Why???

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AI teleporting cheat. Why???

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> AI teleporting cheat. Why???

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AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 1:16:50 AM

Satansbraten

Posts: 32
Joined: 7/27/2009
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Hi, I stumbled over the AI teleporting cheat.
I think it has a major negative impact on playability of the game. Playing as Japan can really be frustrating with the cheat in place.

I landed forces on Java at two places. Before that KB swept up and down both sides of Java, mainly attacking shipping in TF's and ports, destroying or disabling most if not all of the surface combat assets which were in the area.

While I was landing forces on Java, the AI began to oppose the landing by sending SC assets (in small packs, not more than 4 ships), seemingly using Soerabaja as base. In theory this is a quite good move for an AI. But they kept coming out of nothing no matter what I did to screen the landings. Placing SC assets into the transport TF's did not help, they do not really fight back while the attackers get sure hits on the transports every time. Placing SC TF's on patrol in the path between Soerabaja and the landing points helped a bit but you must have at least a 2:1, better 3:1 numerical advantage to get acceptable results (eg IJN = 3 CA / 1 CL / 4 DD - Allies = 2 CA / 2 DD --- result IJN 1 to 2 CA medium damage, no longer combat worthy (in terms of risk), 1 to 2 damaged DD, Allied heavy assets badly damaged, sinking only possible when the torpedoes hit), but you get problems if your SCTF decides to retire after combat, because there may very well be an additional enemy TF created which then gets through.
KB sinks most if not all of the survivors (you should use your Kates with bombs, because they don't seem to like torpedoing even damaged targets), some destroyers may manage to survive the turn...but as said they will keep coming the next night with freshly teleported CA's/CL's from Sydney, Madras and who knows (why not Scapa Flow?). This ends up into a slug fest, where the AI sacrifices it's forces (30+ CA/CL/DD sunk in the area by end of march '42), while the IJN has fast growing number of it's assets under repair in Singapore.

This is simply annoying and unrealistic. If teleporting is necessary for the AI to "work", I would at least suggest to tone it down a bit, either the rate (not every turn), or introduce a threshold (stop if lost so many ships), or change the relative distance to the indended target (eg. pull them to Darwin or Rangoon, to give me a realistic (tm) screening possibility). If this is not possible at all, but part of the AI script ("defend Java beaches with CA/CL SCTF'S") it should be removed, IMHO. Like it is now, it makes me feeling the game is pointless, because tactics are irrelevant (they keep coming until your forces are ripe for destruction, in a phase of the war were this is very ahistorical, and I cleared the ports and waters around Java before the invasion).

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 3:13:24 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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Its not a cheat, its called scripts. Those waves and waves you see are probably a script running to do whatever its told to do and the AI follows that until the script is completed or ends. I ran into a few myself where the AI simply sent every warship it had in groups of 2-6 to Pearl Harbor to bombard it, with predictable results.

You can recover from the losses, the AI can't.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 3:19:08 AM

Sredni

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
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The AI does cheat and teleport ships around. I thought it was only transports and cargo ships that did the teleporting though?

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 1:39:58 PM

USSAmerica

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From: Graham, NC, USA
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Satansbraten, if you want the computer AI to offer a challenge to the human player, you have to accept some warts along with it. AE's AI is light years beyond WitP and almost every other wargame in existence. If you want to face off against realistic strategy and tactics, look for a PBEM opponent in the Opponents Wanted thread.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 3:13:36 PM

Satansbraten

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The problem is not the challenge. I think the AI is OK in most cases, at least for practicing or "casual" gaming. The game actually is enjoyable when playing against the AI.

I also think it is ok that the AI is allowed to cheat in certain areas of the game. But the design should be, that the cheating is kept "invisible" from the human player. In my opinion this is the difference between a "good" and "bad" AI. When cheating becomes obvious/unbalancing, it spoils the game (no good practice).

I landed at a third point on Java, at the south eastern tip of the island. It looks like the teleporting does not occur in Soerabaja, but in the waters south/southwest of this point. The AI TF's then try to move to Soerabaja. This is to aggressive. From an "objective" point of view, it should no longer be possible to interfer the landings at this point (meaning: with assets it does not have in the area). I hope the script drops out of this sequence after Soerabaja falls...

Is there some detailed documentation how to create AI scripts? I really started to think about analysing it, creating some test scripts. I want to get knowledge about it, the options, etc. By looking at the scenario data I can only make educated guesses.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 3:25:35 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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If wanting to mod AI scripts, read this thread for starters:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2274569

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 3:31:52 PM

oldman45

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From: Jacksonville Fl
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Did you save the game and look at the AI forces? I had a similar incident and after a week of fighting I could not believe what I was seeing. So I checked the AI forces and saw that my guys were lying about how much damage they were inflicting. They must have been trying to get a medal or something

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 4:45:05 PM

janh

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You might want to contact Andy, who did all the AI scripting. If it is a bug in an AI script, which it sounds like (similar to the japanese bombardment script issues for PH or Singapore, that were reported elsewhere), Andy can find it provided you have some save games, and specific information.

Part of the problem in games like WITP/AE is that the scripting approaches implemented are mostly static, which is a limiting factor for a game of this size and complexity. But it is not difficult to guess that the devs would probably have need a full team alone for implementing some dynamic AI scripting capabilities that could give AI (simulated) "smarter" capabilities and avoid the need for some of the cheating factors like teleporting. Hopefully the devs will one day do a second upgrade of WITP, which would include a powerful scripting language for an enhanced strategic AI...

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 5:17:57 PM

SuluSea

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To assist in protecting transports create a potent surface combat�force of your own with an aggressive commander and have it sail to the invasion port with the transports & ASW/surface forces�set to follow.

The Surface Combat force should engage first.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 7/21/2010 5:20:00 PM >

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 6:31:37 PM

JWE

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Actually, it is because of the scripts that certain of the AI cheats take place. A chosen script, is the script for that game. The script plays out according to its terms, regardless of the �hardness� setting. So other things must be done to provide advantage to the �other� side. Playing �hard� or �harder� does not adapt the scripts in any way. It just gives the �other� player more �stuff� (supply, support, production, etc).

So play on historical and you will get exactly the same AI, but fewer cheats.

As to TFs and Ships and teleportation, if you carefully read the thread that Sarduakar posted, you can understand where teleportation comes into play. A script that requires some sort of TF in order to function, means that those ships must come from somewhere. The AI ain�t bright enuf to find the hulls and sail them to the assembly base so when required, presto: AI takes from disbanded necessaries wherever located. It�s not that ugly, because one may assume the disbanded ships were really in a TF merrily steaming away towards the assembly base.

It is, after all, an abstraction, so teleportation could be viewed as little more than a one week TF routing backfill (oh gosh, I need the DooDoo Maru .. oh gosh, she�s in Tokyo .. oh gosh, well maybe she isn�t really in Tokyo, maybe she�s been en-route for a while and I forgot to display it). That sort of thing.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 7:23:49 PM

Satansbraten

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Attn. post may include spoilers...

I read the thread where Andy Mac gives information about the scripting.
There are two possible sets in the scripts of scen 1. Set number 1 (scripts 1235 to 1240): If Merak or Kalidjata or Banjoewangi are invaded, they will fire. They create SCTF's aimed at those bases. One ends on 42/03/31 (Merak) while the other two end on 42/05/01. I can't tell if they end earlier (maybe if the invaded base or Soerabaja falls).

The 2nd set (1660 to 1666) contains several defense/counterattack options for the Dutch. Within this set, script number 1664 is a very likely candidate to have been fired in my game. It also contains 2 SCTF definitions. Unfortunately its end date is defined as 42/07/01. Maybe the fall of Soerabaja also ends it.

What I don't understand is why the AI allows itself to draw so many ships for its task. Does the AI recognize ship HQ assignment?

What I noticed in the game is that there seems to be a preference to use Australian and British ships especially when it comes to the heavy components. This may be related to the HQ assigned to the ships and the script. In the first set it's ABDA/Malay Army, in the second set it's SWPac/MLD.
So there may be a chance the frequency drops of, as long as the AI does not assign additional ships to the HQs and uses only ships affiliated to the script-HQ. If this is true it could also be used for some kind of workaround: KNIL Army Command is the starting HQ for most of the Dutch forces and could limit the respawn activity.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 7:38:02 PM

JWE

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I'm just trying to say how things work. If all you want to do is cheat the system, then more power to you. You seem to know a lot about the AI functionality, so if you have issues, then rewrite the darn thing according to your views of what should happen.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 8:46:27 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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As JWE said, some things should not be seen as "cheat", more like "abstraction".

AI cannot do things similarly as human player can and thus needs more simplified and straightforward way to operate. Don't let it take away the "suspension of disbelief", playing on historical difficulty AI gives reasonably good game without too many cheats. But to function, it does need some help.

It'd probably be possible to program AI that would not cheat with TF creation, but in the end result would be same, maybe even less enjoyable game and 10x more cumbersome and time-consuming processing. It just do not add much value to game to do it that way.

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RE: AI teleporting cheat. Why??? - 7/21/2010 8:59:41 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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I can tell you that the AI does not consider HQ of ships. That is one of the things that is just too complex for a mere CPU.

In WITP, the AI did not use teleporting. It formed TFs and moved ships from point to point until enough were available at the assembly port. Somethimes that took months, with ships tied up in "hold" and no AI operations proceeding. And with ships tied up waiting for Operation A, Operation B and C withered. WITP players may recognize the months of nothingness that this created.

AE uses teleporting because it works. The only other option is a massive rewrite that would probably not help all that much. One of the issues that makes teleportation even more necessary is the attempt by the AE AI to form more balanced Task Forces. The Normal-small-medium-large-special and min-optimal-max options is to allow the AI designer to tailor the required TF to the task. These options, in combination, allow specification of the appropriate balanced force.

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