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Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 11:37:44 AM

spence

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When AE was in development there was considerable talk about skip bombing and other low level naval attacks. I can't seem to find a specific mention of skipbombing in the manual though.

It seems that there are some criterion for un-penalized low level attacks since I remember reading something about some planes carrying only half as many bombs or some such.

What planes are not penalized though?

Are all the same bombers that are penalized for performing low level naval attack similarly penalized for performing low level ground attack or is it a different list?

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 12:11:27 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

When AE was in development there was considerable talk about skip bombing and other low level naval attacks. I can't seem to find a specific mention of skipbombing in the manual though.

It seems that there are some criterion for un-penalized low level attacks since I remember reading something about some planes carrying only half as many bombs or some such.

What planes are not penalized though?

Are all the same bombers that are penalized for performing low level naval attack similarly penalized for performing low level ground attack or is it a different list?

bombers rated as "attack bombers" attack at 100ft and attack with their full bomb load. There are also some Navy bomber versions attacking with full load on low nav attacks, but those aren�t attacking at 100ft by default like the "attack bombers". I don�t know every type by heart, but IIRC michaelm once posted a list with all bombers which are available for lownav attacks with full load.

All other bombers attack with their load halved when attacking below 6000ft.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 1:42:53 PM

JohnDillworth

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Keep in mind like everything else, this works much better with training. Find out which bombers work (probably the B-25's with all the machine guns up front)and which units will upgrade to that plan and start training them at 100ft for naval attack

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 1:55:58 PM

vinnie71

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Guess Marauders and later Invaders as well. Then there are the Havocs (A-20???) which should work as well.

But how do you recognise that they are skip bombing?

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 2:27:57 PM

greg_slith

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The B-25D1 also seems to be a skip bomber or at least it likes to be Very Low level bomber. My problem with these A/C is that no matter what altitude I set them they always attack at 100 feet. Fine if it's against a naval target but they also attack airfields, ports, troops, you name it, at 100ft. In my game I have a couple very high exp squadrons of B-25D1's who can't hit the broad side of a barn at 100ft. They were getting great LCU kills at 6000ft in their B-25C's. I upgraded because there were no C's left and now they are generally worthless. On a normal 12 plane strike against ships I'll get 3-4 mg hits and maybe 1-2 500lb bomb hits. Seems a little low for a squadron with 80+ exp, but, whatever. The fact that they can't hit any parked A/C on a base with @ 300 Japanese planes nor can they hit the runway does give me pause

.

It would be nice if this was looked into, not a game breaker in my opinion, but does leave a strange aftertaste.

Greg

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 10:05:39 PM

Lecivius

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I have to admit I am perturbed at my Army attack bombers not able to hit the broadside of a barn at 70+ exp. on AK's unloading 4 squares away. Only Banshee's do squat.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/30/2010 10:21:25 PM

spence

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quote:

On a normal 12 plane strike against ships I'll get 3-4 mg hits and maybe 1-2 500lb bomb hits. Seems a little low for a squadron with 80+ exp, but, whatever. The fact that they can't hit any parked A/C on a base with @ 300 Japanese planes nor can they hit the runway does give me pause.

In the Battle of the Bismarck Sea the skip-bombers got somewhere around 50% hits against ships. The descriptions seem to indicate that B-25s modified with forward firing machineguns (D1's?), A-20s and Australian Beauforts made low level attacks but there may be a bit of fog of war incorporated in the summary.

From what I've read the D1's specialized in low level attack whether against ground or naval targets. Training in low level attack might be required but from all I've read hitting a target was a lot easier from low altitude so it would seem that the "high experience" requirement for success is counter-historical.

The USN 2E and 4E bombers didn't skip-bomb per se but their doctrine called for naval attacks at the lowest practicable altitude: called masthead attacks. The altitude formula used basically meant that the altitude in ft equaled the weight of the bomb in pounds. The navy bombers tended to carry a mix of 500 lb GPs and 100 lb GPs on naval attacks.

Your experience with skip-bombers' accuracy against both ships and ground targets seems way too low.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 7/31/2010 12:21:01 AM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I have to admit I am perturbed at my Army attack bombers not able to hit the broadside of a barn at 70+ exp. on�AK's unloading 4 squares away.� Only Banshee's do squat.

I believe there is a restriction of experience level "80" before skip bombing becomes effective. Not sure why, as the attack profile is easier to master than that of a torpedo bomber (and you get to shoot back at the enemy to boot.) May have something to do with the fact that only the Allies have the Aircraft (gunships) to make it work.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/1/2010 1:41:56 PM

mike scholl 1

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Bump. Can one of the designers confirm if "exp 80" is involved in this?

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/1/2010 3:39:51 PM

Sardaukar

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I think there are some differences between A/C classes. I could not get my Beaufighters to hit anything at 100ft, before I realised that they were classified as Fighter Bombers. Apparently those attack best at 1000ft, so setting altitude that that cured the problem and they started to hit just fine. Check the classification of planes involved (medium bomber, attack bomber, fighter bomber), mediums should work fime when set 100ft, but others may require setting to 1000ft, for example.

I don't think there is 80 exp limit with skip bombing in AE and I seem to recall it was confirmed by devs.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/1/2010 4:09:55 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Bump. Can one of the designers confirm if "exp 80" is involved in this?

Rally, so the individual skill level does not come into play? All my training is usless because I don't have the experience. Little help developers.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 8:05:48 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Bump. Can one of the designers confirm if "exp 80" is involved in this?

Rally, so the individual skill level does not come into play? All my training is usless because I don't have the experience. Little help developers.

doubt that exp is needed, skill works just fine. My bombers chew up the Japanese just fine with lownav skill 70 and that�s what is used for attacks below 6000ft, which also includes skip bombing (there�s no special skill for it). If you also want to see MG and cannon hits on 100ft attacks, you have to train strafe too, but I really don�t care about cal.50 hits that won�t do any notable damage, it�s the 500lb bomb hits that count...

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 8:27:11 AM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

doubt that exp is needed, skill works just fine. My bombers chew up the Japanese just fine with lownav skill 70 and that�s what is used for attacks below 6000ft, which also includes skip bombing (there�s no special skill for it). If you also want to see MG and cannon hits on 100ft attacks, you have to train strafe too, but I really don�t care about cal.50 hits that won�t do any notable damage, it�s the 500lb bomb hits that count...

I find myself getting 1-3 bomb hits when skip bombing..., but when I check the unit involved I find that the number of bomb hits seems to correlate to the number of pilots with "low naval" skill of 80+. And that seems an awfully high prerequisite for a pretty simple attack profile.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 10:28:56 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

doubt that exp is needed, skill works just fine. My bombers chew up the Japanese just fine with lownav skill 70 and that�s what is used for attacks below 6000ft, which also includes skip bombing (there�s no special skill for it). If you also want to see MG and cannon hits on 100ft attacks, you have to train strafe too, but I really don�t care about cal.50 hits that won�t do any notable damage, it�s the 500lb bomb hits that count...

I find myself getting 1-3 bomb hits when skip bombing..., but when I check the unit involved I find that the number of bomb hits seems to correlate to the number of pilots with "low naval" skill of 80+. And that seems an awfully high prerequisite for a pretty simple attack profile.

skill 80+ sounds high yeah. Now we�re talking about skill though, not experience.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 12:11:09 PM

Sardaukar

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I am quite I have seen one of Devs (be they blessed

) to say there is no exp-limit in skip bombing. My search of forum has not confirmed that yet.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 2:33:40 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

you have to train strafe too

How does one train to strafe?

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 3:09:12 PM

jay102

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What's the best altitude for level bomber naval attack when skill is around 60-70?�

5000? 1000? 100?

< Message edited by jay102 -- 8/2/2010 3:10:05 PM >

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 3:20:49 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

you have to train strafe too

How does one train to strafe?

guess by setting them to 100ft? now when I think about that, wouldn�t it be best to set them on 100ft training because that would train strafe AND lownav?

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 4:10:38 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

What's the best altitude for level bomber naval attack when skill is around 60-70?�

5000? 1000? 100?

Beats me. The ones I train for low level naval (gunship models of the A-20, A26, and B-25) always seem to strafe no mater what levels I set them at.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 4:36:46 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

What's the best altitude for level bomber naval attack when skill is around 60-70?�

5000? 1000? 100?

Beats me. The ones I train for low level naval (gunship models of the A-20, A26, and B-25) always seem to strafe no mater what levels I set them at.

yes, attack bombers always strafe... other medium bombers will stay at their preset alt to bomb... note that not all B-25 are attack bombers, the B-25C for example is a medium level bomber.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 4:59:33 PM

JohnDillworth

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I would think strafing would be the easiest skill. I mean this is the P-38 theory. Everything is pretty much in the center (at least for the b-25's). Just line it up and hold the trigger. Splashes and tracers will tell you where the bullets are going. 8+ 50 cal guns from a plane going 200+ mph in a 1 or 2 foot circle must have mad a hell of a mess out of any un-armored ship.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 6:05:09 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Beats me. The ones I train for low level naval (gunship models of the A-20, A26, and B-25) always seem to strafe no mater what levels I set them at.

yes, attack bombers always strafe... other medium bombers will stay at their preset alt to bomb... note that not all B-25 are attack bombers, the B-25C for example is a medium level bomber.

Which is why I specifically stated "gunship models".

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 6:08:23 PM

John Lansford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

What's the best altitude for level bomber naval attack when skill is around 60-70?�

5000? 1000? 100?

Beats me. The ones I train for low level naval (gunship models of the A-20, A26, and B-25) always seem to strafe no mater what levels I set them at.

Same with me. Every one of my B-25D1 squadrons strafe whatever target I assign them, on whatever mission they're on. I can set them to 10000 feet and they still strafe; I can only assume they drop down to 100' and then climb back up after they're done.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 9:59:19 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

What's the best altitude for level bomber naval attack when skill is around 60-70?�

5000? 1000? 100?

Beats me. The ones I train for low level naval (gunship models of the A-20, A26, and B-25) always seem to strafe no mater what levels I set them at.

Same with me. Every one of my B-25D1 squadrons strafe whatever target I assign them, on whatever mission they're on. I can set them to 10000 feet and they still strafe; I can only assume they drop down to 100' and then climb back up after they're done.

I don't think they carried bombsights. So bombing at 10,000 feet would be hard.

But not impossible as they could use a lead bomber with a bombsight and all drop together. Don't know if they actually did that though. I think that by 1943 the preferred way to hit an airfield or port was at very low level. Line abreast, all guns firing, drop the eggs and then get t he hell out of dodge. Don't know for sure though

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 10:39:26 PM

oldman45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think they carried bombsights. So bombing at 10,000 feet would be hard.

But not impossible as they could use a lead bomber with a bombsight and all drop together. Don't know if they actually did that though. I think that by 1943 the preferred way to hit an airfield or port was at very low level. Line abreast, all guns firing, drop the eggs and then get t he hell out of dodge. Don't know for sure though

That is exactly what they did except they got to use para frags

Oh to get the parafrags back...

Infact if they thought there would be heavy AAA, they would send in B-24's to hit the place first and soften up the defences before the B-25's and/or the A-20's came in. At least they did that in New Guinea

< Message edited by oldman45 -- 8/2/2010 10:40:41 PM >

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 11:23:16 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think they carried bombsights. So bombing at 10,000 feet would be hard.

Absolutely correct! Which begs the question that of WHY the US chose to build thousands of these "gunship variants", and retrofit kits for other models if the mission profile was so difficult to fly? I think 60 exp and 60 skill would be more than enough to master it. "80" is suspiciously high...

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 11:42:18 PM

JohnDillworth

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If it's a skip bombing attack would the combat report specifically say it. I have some B-26's with good low level naval attack having some success, but they are set to bomb at 100ft and their experience is int he 60's and 70's.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Buna at 99,129

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 1

Allied aircraft
B-26 Marauder x 4

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAP Mizuho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
65 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-26 Marauder bombing from 100 feet (22nd BG/2nd BS / V US Bomber Cmnd)
Naval Attack: 6 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
33rd Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 134 minutes

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/2/2010 11:47:20 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think they carried bombsights. So bombing at 10,000 feet would be hard.

Absolutely correct! Which begs the question that of WHY the US chose to build thousands of these "gunship variants", and retrofit kits for other models if the mission profile was so difficult to fly? I think 60 exp and 60 skill would be more than enough to master it. "80" is suspiciously high...

From readings, it was acutally EASIER for inexperienced crews in 2 EBs to conduct these attacks, with lower casualties from AA than from "high level"... this is not what happens in game, i think.

The attacks were pioneered by the B-17, but it was found that the speedier 2EBs were better at it.

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/3/2010 12:20:42 AM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

From readings, it was acutally EASIER for inexperienced crews in 2 EBs to conduct these attacks, with lower casualties from AA than from "high level"... this is not what happens in game, i think.

The attacks were pioneered by the B-17, but it was found that the speedier 2EBs were better at it.

EXACTLY! So why is this skill so difficult to aquire and use in the game? I mean even the "strafing results" which show up so often in place of actual bomb attacks make no sense. Those gunships had anywhere from 10-18 forward-firing .50 cals..., which means even a 5 second burst could be as many as 1000 rounds fired. And what do we see? 2,3,4 "hits". Not 2,3,or 400 "hits"; just 2,3,or 4. On a target the size of a ship! Very unbelievable....

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RE: Low Level Naval Attacks - 8/3/2010 2:17:08 AM

spence

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My father flew later model PV-1s/PV-2s for the USN. He described his bombsight as a dead bug on the windscreen. The original PV's had a glass nose and bombardier/bomb sight but that was modified to a solid nose with a chin pack of 3 extra .50 cals. The attack profile was a low level, high speed glide bombing attack, strafing on the run in with the five nose .50 cals plus the 2 additional .50 cals in the top turret. For an attack on a ship with 500 lb GP bombs the bombs would be released at about 500 ft. They also used 5" HVAR rockets fired in pairs rather than bombs towards the end of the war (4 launch rails on each wing).

A very similar attack profile was against land installations although they often used lighter bombs, got even lower, and went in faster.

I casually took note of the fact that it is possible to train any bomber for naval attack/torpedo. I imagine it only works for those with a toggle switch for bombs/torpedoes but I'm not actually sure and I haven't noticed any such.

Some early model B-26s actually made (ineffective) attacks with torpedoes. I've read that B-25s (presumably PBJs as well) could carry a torpedo. There is a photo with a showing the loading of a torpedo onto a PV-2 (captioned as on Attu in 1945). The bomb-bay of the PV-1 design was specifically modified in the PV-2 to allow a torpedo to be carried fully internally but as far as I know no PVs of any model made a real torpedo warshot.

Just curious, did the Devs slip in an ability for some (maybe particular squadrons) US 2E bombers to carry torpedoes? Probably not but I haven't been paying attention so I have to ask.

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