Berlin Map...Yes or No???

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Berlin Map...Yes or No??? - 8/2/2002 11:47:13 PM

Orzel Bialy

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Ok, I too could have swore I saw a thread one time that someone was creating a map of Berlin. Question is....did it ever get made?

If so, does anyone have the link/thread? If not...should I take on the challenge and create it?

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- 8/3/2002 12:10:16 AM

Jim1954

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I think it was m4jess. It was like a month ago or longer. Go ahead. Can't have too many maps, can we?

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- 8/3/2002 12:30:14 AM

Jim1954

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here is a very old response from redleg about a circa 1944 Berlin map for sale
.
http://www.rzm.com/magazines/atb/atbmap.cfm

Have you used the search mode for the forums?

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Post #: 3

- 8/3/2002 12:36:07 AM

Commander Klank

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I say go for it, make it a large+ if you can.

One of downtown and one of the surounding areas leading into downtown.

I've seem several exellent sights on the Battle of Berlin that have detailed maps of the city. I don't recall thier adresses; I fund them one night surfing the internet for information on WW2 battles ie, "Battle of Berlin"

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- 8/3/2002 12:51:41 AM

Jim1954

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Orzel, here's the link. It wasn't m4jess afterall.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21592&highlight=berlin

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- 8/3/2002 2:19:14 AM

Commander Klank

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Here's a few links to 1944-45 Berlin maps....

Not much but I hope it helps....

http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/berlin/maps/alliedmap.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/maplist.htm

http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastfront2/1reichstag45.htm

http://www.usd230.k12.ks.us/PICTT/publications/maps/1945/15.html

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Berlin Rough Draft - 8/3/2002 8:49:00 AM

Orzel Bialy

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Ok, this is where I am as of tonight.

It's pretty much a rough draft of the major streets and the Spree River. I threw in the ReichStag just to give some idea of scale.

Now I just have to add the railyard to the north...drop in a few more streets and go from there. Whew! ;)

CO Klank, thanks for the map links...if anyone else knows of a few more please post them. I'd like to get it as realistic as possible, so any and all info would be appreciated.

Oh yeah, I have almost finished the Ardennes map for our battle CO Klank....about 80% done.
Then I also have another map ready to post on the "maps" thread titled "Villages". It's a bit more tank country than my last couple....with four small villages to fight over. ;)

Please note that this is "preview" of Berlin is saved under map slot #10...which is the same slot Jess used for his Washington DC map. ( I changed his when I downloaded it ) So be sure to move or copy any current #10 maps before you download this.

Attachment (1)

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- 8/3/2002 9:55:18 AM

Commander Klank

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Look'in good Orzel. I guess most of the buildings will be 2 to 3 story cement /stone rowhouses and stuff, seems to be what they mostly were in all the pictures..........

Nasty stuff.......

Any idea of the extent of the damage the map will have? Berlin was pretty trashed by time the actul battle took place.

Again nasty stuff........

Keep up the good work we really apreciate the time you spend on this stuff........:)

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Berlin 45'.... - 8/3/2002 10:55:00 AM

Orzel Bialy

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CO Klank,

Berlin will be pretty well beat up...burned and bombed out. ;) By the time the Soviet army had closed in this close their arty and air force, in conjunction with the bombings of the USAAF and RAF, had reduced much of the city to rubble.

And yes, the majority of the buildings will be two story buildings, except where (like the Reichstag) I have to over-lap buildings to creat certain landmarks...which require me to take down the "hills" that the game engine utilizies to mimick height.

OK, back to the grindstone. ;)

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- 8/3/2002 9:00:51 PM

Drex

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Even if Brent Richards is working on a Berlin Map remember that there is more than one map of Stalingrad lying around and they are all different in some way so your Berlin Map will be well appreciated - especially if its the first one.

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A little Feedback Please... - 8/3/2002 9:00:56 PM

Orzel Bialy

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I did a bit more work on the map this morning...mainly on the Tiergarten area and the area along the southern shore of the River Spree.

What I would like to know is what people think about the level of damage I created? Is it too much? Too little? Just Right?

CO Klank and I covered the fact in this thread that Berlin was pretty well gutted by the time of the final Red Army assault...but I don't want to trash it so much that people might not find the map compelling to utilize.

For those of you interested please let me know what you think from the little preview that I have attached.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11

Berlin Map - 8/4/2002 1:19:52 AM

Drex

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It's about the level of damage I would expect. Were all the bridges intact?

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- 8/4/2002 3:12:14 AM

Commander Klank

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The building damage looks good. You might want to watch the amount of damage to the roads on the mian avenues: it seems that in alot of the main roads are actully clear of heavy debries and craters. This so probably becouse the population still living there would clear/repair these roads so they could move about the city.......

Here's picture I pulled off the net.......

[IMG]http://www.worldwar2database.com/photos/wwii849.jpg[/IMG]

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- 8/4/2002 3:34:59 AM

Commander Klank

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Opps.......

Hit the wrong button. I wasn't done with the post yet:mad:

Anyways as you can see in the picture the streets are relitvly clear of major debries and craters and are easy to move around on. While the building in the background has just collapsed into the street creating a roadblock you could bet it would eventully get cleared away by the population with the rubble being piled on the sides of the streets next to the buildings.

In a way this would make for some long clear fields of fire down the length of streets and make a dash across a street very dangerous indeed.

I'd maybe dress up the roads a bit (for looks) and maybe have some light damage here and there but other then that they should be clear of road blocks and major damage.

I'd let the players artillery and bombers do the major damage to the roads during the battles.

Just my two cents worth........

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- 8/4/2002 6:34:12 AM

Grenadier

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Orzel,
Would you like to finish my map instead? Also the special buildings for the map are in the game terr files somewhere. They have to be accessed by using the same procedure as the sidewalks, but I cannot remember where they are right now. It has been 2 years sinee I did them and they were in ver 5. I believe it is in the military buildings, ter61 or the inductrial buildings

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Berlin map.... - 8/4/2002 6:39:49 AM

Orzel Bialy

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Brent, well I could take up that challenge...if you are willing to send me the files I'd be happy to take a look at it.

CO Klank...I understand your input completely, that's why I asked for some feedback...I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who thought maybe I was trashing it too much. :D

So...Brent, if you want send me what you have of the map...my addy is [email]ken24wins@yahoo.com[/email]. I'll look it over. Thanks for the offer...not everyone can say that they were offered to finish off one of your works of art, what an honor! ;)

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- 8/5/2002 4:03:51 PM

Gaius Marius

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The map looks very good.

I was in Berlin last week and it is hard to imagine what it was like in 1945, but what I imagined is something like what your map looks like.

A couple of notes:

1) the Spree, I think, is a little narrower than you have it. It also has sheer concrete banks - there is no way to beach on either side. I don't know if this is doable in the game. Maybe make the banks cliff hexes? It is really much more of a canal than a river.

2) you may just not have gotten to it yet, but the largely-destroyed Lehrter Stadtbahnhof would be just across the Spree north of the Reichstag, I think. Just west of the large canal/basin coming off the river.

Anyway, thanks. I am looking forward to the final version. If you have any random questions about geography of the city, let me know. I don't live there but am probably there a few days out of every month, so it is fresh in my mind.

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- 8/5/2002 7:47:45 PM

Drex

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all right! A Berlin map by Richards-Bialy. Now that's a combination.

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Thanks... - 8/5/2002 9:20:51 PM

Orzel Bialy

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for the input on the Spree and some of the terrain set up! :) Very useful information indeed.

I can rework the river bank with little problem...I think I have an idea of how best to handle it too.

If you have any other input please post it.

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- 8/6/2002 3:50:12 AM

Grenadier

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The map is on its way

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Brent Grenadier Richards

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Have Maps.... - 8/6/2002 8:19:59 PM

Orzel Bialy

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Brent, I got the maps you sent over...thanks. This post almost snuck by me...with all the attention that has been going into the other thread about maps as of late.
Great work on what you did manage to finish/lay down before you were pulled away by other duties!
I thought about the scale issue too when I first laid out my Berlin map...I wanted to get as much of the city in as possible...but not at the sacrifice of detail.
Hmmmm, what to do what to do??? lol. ;)

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Have Maps.... - 8/6/2002 8:21:30 PM

Orzel Bialy

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Map Update.... - 8/7/2002 9:26:17 AM

Orzel Bialy

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I spent some more time on Berlin last night...about to go and work on it some more.
So far this is what has been re-modelled.
1. Spree River narrowed a bit now...and the river banks reworked to be more city-like.
2. Some work on the roads to undo some of the initial trashing I gave them.
3. Working now on sprucing up the streets.
4. Placing a few more landmark buildings.

Now, for the unfinished Brent version of Berlin...**** fine map. The scale he utilized makes much more of the city available for combat than mine...which could be of major interest to people who want to "scenario out" the entire final push on the city...rather than fight for just the city center that my map portrays.
However, I feel comfortable with the belief that both maps could have real use to the community...so it's my intention (with his final permission) to try and tackle both maps. ;)
Had to look over my shoulder to make sure the wife didn't see that. lol. :D

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- 8/7/2002 10:52:03 PM

Grenadier

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Right on, Orzel.You are 100% correct. The original plan was to have the final 3 battles of the "Road to Berlin" series culminate on this map. The first was to be called "Into the City" and was to be the battle for Tempelhof field and environs. The 2nd was to be called "Race for the Reichstag and was to portray the attack into the Tiergarten sector by 8 Guards Army and 5th Shock Army from the south and north. The 3rd was to be named "Gotterdamerung" and would have invloved the fianl battles in the city center and the Reichstag and Zoo Flak Tower. I planned on using Russian squads with 50 men and each company would be batallion size. I also planned on having reinforcements for the Germans pop up at key VO's to emulate the incredible "Fight to the death" tenaciousness of the defense. especilaally around the Potsdam and Alexanderplatz's and tempelhof field. That way when a key defense point was overrun a couple of tuns later a new SS or GD squad would show up to take back the VO

The last thing I did was the Moabit barracks on the Alt Moabit but a crash wiped it out along with all of the map between the Atlt Moabit and the Moabit Canal and docks. This really bummed me out as I had put several hour s in it and could not staand to start again. None of my prior saves had the data either so I simply gave up. Too much confusion between my different versions of SPWaW on my computer. I have 4 alltogether. 1 for Lost Victories work. 1 for Lost Victories and SPWaW original install with no modifications, 1 for SPWaW scenario work and one for Raiders Work

They layout of the map is not perfect as I could not get the Fredrichstrasse to end at the Belle-Alliance Platz and then go south to Tempelhof. The limitations of the road and sidewalk features. Have fun and I look forward to many battles on "our" map

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- 8/8/2002 9:41:44 PM

Gaius Marius

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Here's what you guys need. I have seen these maps (actually aerial photos) up close and they are excellent.

http://www.panorama-berlin.de/medien/planlu.html

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- 8/10/2002 11:02:06 PM

Gaius Marius

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http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/maplist.htm

More maps there. There is one allied map from 1945 that might be useful in particular.

Good luck

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serendipity... - 8/12/2002 5:08:59 PM

benpark

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Hi all. I am new to the Matrix forums, but I am an avid wargamer and lover of SPWAW. I actually spent a few days last week making a central Berlin map. It is the Tiergarten, Zoo(Flak Towers) and the large government buildings(Reichstag, Reichskanzlei). I kind of gave up after a while (though the terrain, roads, and bldngs are all placed), because I cannot figure how to place the victory locations when I am just making a map (not a scenario). I intended it for the battlemaker, and without the VL's where I placed them, I end up fighting desperately for a clump of bushes in the park...
I actually made another map for Combat Mission of the same area, and now my eyes are melting out of my head! Orzel-if you are at all interested, I can email it to you-just to have some more fodder. I am a big fan if Brent's work as well, so I can't wait to see how it comes out. This is great, I just reread "The Last Battle" again (which precipitated my obsession)-so this is very timely.

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Welcome to the Forum - 8/12/2002 6:36:45 PM

Orzel Bialy

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and why yes...send over the files whenever you get the chance. Here's my addy: [email]ken24wins@yahoo.com[/email]

I'm currently working on my version of the city center map...just finished off the rail yard to the north of the Spree. Once this one is doen then I'll turn to finishing off Brent's version of the "city at large".

Thanks for the offer...every bit of information helps. ;)

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hey Orzel - 8/13/2002 11:31:31 AM

benpark

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The file should be in yer in box! Ben

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