RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO?

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/24/2010 10:33:35 PM

Geordie

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/21/2008
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I think there's a place for as many of these games as I can play and so I don't see PCO as a direct rival for CMBB, or even a new CM game. It's just another game.

However, Thomm, I would say this, why keep responding to him? This isn't the forum for It here, but your more than welcome to continue it at GS.

I for one am quite enthusiastic about PCO, a game for which I have now seen more screenshots in a week than I have for others in 2 years. I also know roughly what's going to be in it. I also know that the models look as good, if not better than anything I've seen from the other game.

Like Mike Dorosh, I've also started playing around with this one again.

Oh and Erik, I have quite a high spec PC, plays games like Call of Duty etc with no problems. However, I turned the graphics from very hi to high and it seems to have Improved things a we bit.

Let's focus on PCO here, plenty of other sites around to discuss other games.

< Message edited by Geordie -- 8/24/2010 10:34:25 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/24/2010 11:46:25 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Exactly, this is supposed to be about PC Ostfront; the BFC bashing miscreants have their hidey hole at gamesquad to voice their angst at CM, no need to have it spread here.

How does the game run on Win7 64 bit? IRC I had trouble with all of Koios' games initially.

I have a new Windows 7 machine that I run PCO exclusively on. We do complete clean installs on a regular basis and I have no issues with it either loading or playing on my machine.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 32

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 1:16:50 AM

madorosh

Posts: 390
Joined: 3/2/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geordie

I think there's a place for as many of these games as I can play and so I don't see PCO as a direct rival for CMBB, or even a new CM game. It's just another game.

I agree with you Geordie; the games are both unique in their approach and that's why I think we continue to see interest in CM:BB, PC:O and even the new CM when it gets around to the Eastern Front. The reason I bring up CM:SF - and yes, I think it certainly is appropriate for discussion here since this is all inter-related - is that despite CM:BB being eight years old, it is still outperforming the "new" CM. Players are entranced by the Eastern Front, and the basic concept of squad-based game play. That's all points in Matrix's favour, and kudos to them for sticking with it through the 'dark winter.'

quote:

I for one am quite enthusiastic about PCO, a game for which I have now seen more screenshots in a week than I have for others in 2 years. I also know roughly what's going to be in it. I also know that the models look as good, if not better than anything I've seen from the other game.

Like Mike Dorosh, I've also started playing around with this one again.

I'm really looking forward to the upgrades MR is so enthusiastic about.

quote:

Let's focus on PCO here, plenty of other sites around to discuss other games.

Well - it is a thread in which two games are directly compared, but perhaps you're right.

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Post #: 33

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 2:19:59 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

I'm really looking forward to the upgrades MR is so enthusiastic about.

I'm not sure how I became the enthusiastic one but I'll take it. The entire development team is enthusiastic though. Just check the posts in this forum.

I do like what I see. I think the old CM crowd may be too and maybe to an even greater extent the old ASL crowd. I'm a member of both so I'm good!!!

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 8/25/2010 2:34:47 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 3:30:00 AM

Zemke

Posts: 642
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MR from the Blitz? If so, I may well buy this game based on your recommendation. This is Zemke from the Blitz.

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Post #: 35

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 3:47:18 AM

Mad Russian

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Yes, I'm still a member of the Blitz and several other sites as well. I made a custom scenario, HSG EW Changing Hands, for a multi-player game you had at the Blitz that seemed to play out well.

Glad to see you here and if you get PCO we'll definitely do some gaming with it!

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 8/25/2010 3:50:49 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 7:15:17 AM

Geordie

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline

Wow, a veritable Blitz re-union.

Spread the word, maybe we can have the good old CM days again with this new game.

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Post #: 37

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 9:37:01 AM

Thomm

Posts: 237
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

However, Thomm, I would say this, why keep responding to him? This isn't the forum for It here, but your more than welcome to continue it at GS.

In response to your question:

I did not respond to him, I asked him to stop.

As for GS: I wrote plenty of emails to the forum administrators in order to "activate" the account I have there. All of them were ignored, or ineffective; I got the message.

Best regards,
Thomm

(in reply to Geordie)

Post #: 38

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:23:37 AM

Geordie

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/21/2008
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Theres no message to get mate. I cant reset your GS password and it seems that you have no way of knowing what it is? I will have another try with the hierarchy there and see what I can do, but believe me, I was as frustrated with the process as you were (well maybe not as much as Im not the one that cant post).

The alternative in this instance was for you to re-register with a similar name. It would have been above board and in the open.....

Edit, after having a look, I have sent you a PM at Battlefront.......

< Message edited by Geordie -- 8/25/2010 11:43:13 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 7:24:54 PM

Pford

Posts: 235
Joined: 11/10/2006
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quote:

There is no Dance of Death while entire platoons of tanks reverse into each other and then are shot to junk by the enemy.

But they do reverse sometimes, right? This is crucial if one is playing without the reaction phase.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 40

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 8:14:54 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pford

quote:

There is no Dance of Death while entire platoons of tanks reverse into each other and then are shot to junk by the enemy.

But they do reverse sometimes, right? This is crucial if one is playing without the reaction phase.

Yes. that is the Withdraw order. With that the entire platoon withdraws. After issuing you can go to each unit and alter by how much to go back. In the 40:40 second turns besides the Withdraw order at the first phase you can select a unit to make an emergency withdraw in the Reaction phase. Other units in the platoon would continue to do what they were ordered.

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Post #: 41

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 8:53:25 PM

Pford

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I meant during the 60 second turn.

A Panzer MK3 rounds the corner of a row of Dachas at the 20 second mark and finds itself looking at the slowly revolving turret of an IS-2. What next?

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Post #: 42

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 9:30:20 PM

spellir74

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Depending on who saw who first...

The PzIII would sight and shoot at point blank. If it scored first it could diminish the IS2's ability (temporarily or permanently). The IS2 would sight the PzIII and depending on accuracy, range, penetrations, and armor values and some dice --mitigated by whether it was just hit or not-- it could destroy the PzIII.

Better to use grenadiers or etc to fish out enemy (as in real life). And use 40 sec turns.

This is a company or higher scale tactical game. It is an abstraction of how you deploy as group commander. If you sent a tank down a road without support it is _likely_ that it would be destroyed, regardless of the quick skills of any given human inside a tank.

If you are the actual doomed tanker it is possible that you --the doomed-by-your-dumb-commander tanker-- might be able to use your quick reflexes and good luck (ie exploitation of the other guy's bad hand eye or distraction) to survive that one moment.

But...

You deploy as a commander of groups. It isn't a shooter.

What you are asking entails having each vehicle be a first person hero --but by AI scope. If all vehicles pull back by AI deployment when they fault-er then how do any of them ever die? How do you as commander get scored?

< Message edited by spellir74 -- 8/25/2010 9:31:14 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 9:32:20 PM

[hirr]Leto

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Should I bother playing Winter Storm or Kharkov, or have the changes made it difficult to compare to what Osfront will be like?

Cheers!

Leto

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Post #: 44

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:12:51 PM

jamespcrowley

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: Chichester UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

Depending on who saw who first...

The PzIII would sight and shoot at point blank. If it scored first it could diminish the IS2's ability (temporarily or permanently). The IS2 would sight the PzIII and depending on accuracy, range, penetrations, and armor values and some dice --mitigated by whether it was just hit or not-- it could destroy the PzIII.

Better to use grenadiers or etc to fish out enemy (as in real life). And use 40 sec turns.

This is a company or higher scale tactical game. It is an abstraction of how you deploy as group commander. If you sent a tank down a road without support it is _likely_ that it would be destroyed, regardless of the quick skills of any given human inside a tank.

If you are the actual doomed tanker it is possible that you --the doomed-by-your-dumb-commander tanker-- might be able to use your quick reflexes and good luck (ie exploitation of the other guy's bad hand eye or distraction) to survive that one moment.

But...

You deploy as a commander of groups. It isn't a shooter.

What you are asking entails having each vehicle be a first person hero --but by AI scope. If all vehicles pull back by AI deployment when they fault-er then how do any of them ever die? How do you as commander get scored?

Hmm....I beg to differ.

A heavy/medium tank, as in the example quoted, may well do as you suggested. However, if a lightly armoured vehicle such as an APC, a scout car or a light tank rounded a corner and spotted an enemy tank that obviously totally out-classed it, it would make perfect sense for it to withdraw immediately, assuming the commanddr didn't have a death wish. In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

CM may have exagerated that tendancy but, I would suggest, that too much is better than not at all. Just my two pennys worth.

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Cheers

Jim

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Post #: 45

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:25:45 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto
Should I bother playing Winter Storm or Kharkov, or have the changes made it difficult to compare to what Osfront will be like?

Personally, I'd wait for Ostfront at this point.

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Post #: 46

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:28:46 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
CM may have exagerated that tendancy but, I would suggest, that too much is better than not at all. Just my two pennys worth.

This is the original function of the Reaction phase and 40 second rather than 60 second phases. I agree that now that other turn structures are possible, we'll want to add more of some kind of TacAI. I think a conditions-based one makes more sense than a completely automatic one, but this will be part of the discussion for the next release. You can also play 40 second turns with no reaction phase, which mitigates such issues. It's worth noting that there were plenty of historical instances where the reaction time of the crew in the just-ambushed tank took 10, 20 or even 60 seconds before a real withdrawal (or other appropriate response) commenced. I do question the realism of immediate reactions while acknowledging that increased TacAI becomes necessary as the length of time between player orders increases.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 47

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:32:48 PM

JMass

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From: Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

Here 40 seconds phases work perfectly, I prefer to give personally a withdrawn order in the reaction phase rather to put my tanks in the AI's hands, historically 5 Shermans could destroy a Tiger (or some Pz IIIs a KV-II) but if a tactical AI doesn't permit this something could be wrong.

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Post #: 48

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/25/2010 11:43:44 PM

Mad Russian

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After months of game play and wanting the 60 second turns, I too found that I much prefer the 80 second turn with a break at 40 seconds. To allow me to give survival orders. That surprised everyone since I was the most vocal advocate for the 60 second turns. It surprised me most of all.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 49

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 3:21:05 AM

Zemke

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From: Oklahoma
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Lots of old friends here from my CM Blitz days, hey Leto, G, MR.� Thanks MR for the scenario, it played well.� I was deployed about mid-way through it, so I missed the second half.

Man....PCO, back to tactical wargaming.� Sounds like I need to get a new machine to play it, but I was planning on that in the next month anyway.

All these great games to be released by Matrix, is all an evil plot to get my money and cause a divorce.� Matrix is killing me, now there are three games I want when released, PCO, War in the East, and Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 8/26/2010 4:04:44 AM >

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 3:38:42 AM

Mad Russian

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Yeah, looks like you better fuel up that little Wolfpack ride of yours to cover all that and still play WiPAE too.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 51

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 4:41:03 AM

[hirr]Leto

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Joined: 8/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Lots of old friends here from my CM Blitz days, hey Leto, G, MR.� Thanks MR for the scenario, it played well.� I was deployed about mid-way through it, so I missed the second half.

Man....PCO, back to tactical wargaming.� Sounds like I need to get a new machine to play it, but I was planning on that in the next month anyway.

All these great games to be released by Matrix, is all an evil plot to get my money and cause a divorce.� Matrix is killing me, now there are three games I want when released, PCO, War in the East, and Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris.

Wow, you back for good now Z?

Happy to see you around M8!

Leto

(in reply to Zemke)

Post #: 52

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 4:43:25 AM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
A heavy/medium tank, as in the example quoted, may well do as you suggested. However, if a lightly armoured vehicle such as an APC, a scout car or a light tank rounded a corner and spotted an enemy tank that obviously totally out-classed it, it would make perfect sense for it to withdraw immediately, assuming the commanddr didn't have a death wish. In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

Might work. Might not. Once you realize the situation do you order a halt? Come to a dead stop, then back up slowly? Or do you order "driver forward" and head like hell down the next alley? Or does the crew just bail out on the spot? Gamers probably wouldn't like it when the AI does that.

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Post #: 53

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 4:50:58 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Lots of old friends here from my CM Blitz days, hey Leto, G, MR.� Thanks MR for the scenario, it played well.� I was deployed about mid-way through it, so I missed the second half.

Beginning to look like Old Home Week around here with everybody starting to drop by and take a look at PCO. Can't wait until we can all kick the tires and do battle!

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 54

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 9:53:47 AM

jamespcrowley

Posts: 424
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From: Chichester UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
A heavy/medium tank, as in the example quoted, may well do as you suggested. However, if a lightly armoured vehicle such as an APC, a scout car or a light tank rounded a corner and spotted an enemy tank that obviously totally out-classed it, it would make perfect sense for it to withdraw immediately, assuming the commanddr didn't have a death wish. In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

Might work. Might not. Once you realize the situation do you order a halt? Come to a dead stop, then back up slowly? Or do you order "driver forward" and head like hell down the next alley? Or does the crew just bail out on the spot? Gamers probably wouldn't like it when the AI does that.

The problem is that there are scores, if not hundreds, of diffferent circumstances where AFVs 'meet' and only a limited set of rules to deal with those situations.

In CM, having a generic 'all overmatched vehicles automatically retreat' stance could lead to frustrations especially with ambush situations but, on the other hand, it did allow the lighter stuff to have a chance of getting away. As I understand it, PC tends to work the opposite way. So neither solution is good for all sitautions.

What is good is that PC is being supported and developed going forward so, as Erik stated above, some form of condition-based AI could be devised to provide reactions which are more appropriate to particular circumstances. Doubtful that every type of encounter could be catered for but, especially at this level of combat, almost anything can happen and frequently did. Assuming that players want something with more than just a nod in the direction of realism, then they will have to expect some loss of control in some situations.

_____________________________

Cheers

Jim

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Post #: 55

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 11:01:02 AM

Geordie

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

Depending on who saw who first...

The PzIII would sight and shoot at point blank. If it scored first it could diminish the IS2's ability (temporarily or permanently). The IS2 would sight the PzIII and depending on accuracy, range, penetrations, and armor values and some dice --mitigated by whether it was just hit or not-- it could destroy the PzIII.

Better to use grenadiers or etc to fish out enemy (as in real life). And use 40 sec turns.

This is a company or higher scale tactical game. It is an abstraction of how you deploy as group commander. If you sent a tank down a road without support it is _likely_ that it would be destroyed, regardless of the quick skills of any given human inside a tank.

If you are the actual doomed tanker it is possible that you --the doomed-by-your-dumb-commander tanker-- might be able to use your quick reflexes and good luck (ie exploitation of the other guy's bad hand eye or distraction) to survive that one moment.

But...

You deploy as a commander of groups. It isn't a shooter.

What you are asking entails having each vehicle be a first person hero --but by AI scope. If all vehicles pull back by AI deployment when they fault-er then how do any of them ever die? How do you as commander get scored?

Hmm....I beg to differ.

A heavy/medium tank, as in the example quoted, may well do as you suggested. However, if a lightly armoured vehicle such as an APC, a scout car or a light tank rounded a corner and spotted an enemy tank that obviously totally out-classed it, it would make perfect sense for it to withdraw immediately, assuming the commanddr didn't have a death wish. In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

CM may have exagerated that tendancy but, I would suggest, that too much is better than not at all. Just my two pennys worth.

Pete

Ive been playing it a bit to get used to it again, but to be honest, the more I read here, the less like the game Im playing right now it looks. I think the changes are so great I will be playing a different game entirely when it arrives.

For me, the biggest thing is that it will play on more modern machines.

_____________________________

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Post #: 56

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 11:04:00 AM

Geordie

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Lots of old friends here from my CM Blitz days, hey Leto, G, MR.� Thanks MR for the scenario, it played well.� I was deployed about mid-way through it, so I missed the second half.

Man....PCO, back to tactical wargaming.� Sounds like I need to get a new machine to play it, but I was planning on that in the next month anyway.

All these great games to be released by Matrix, is all an evil plot to get my money and cause a divorce.� Matrix is killing me, now there are three games I want when released, PCO, War in the East, and Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris.

Hiya matey.

Good to see your back in the land of the Free/Brave or whatever its called these days. I was deployed last year too but in the South Atlantic winter (made a good change).

I think this may just be the East Front game weve been wanting........

_____________________________

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Post #: 57

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 6:00:38 PM

[hirr]Leto

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Geordie

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

quote:

ORIGINAL: spellir74

Depending on who saw who first...

The PzIII would sight and shoot at point blank. If it scored first it could diminish the IS2's ability (temporarily or permanently). The IS2 would sight the PzIII and depending on accuracy, range, penetrations, and armor values and some dice --mitigated by whether it was just hit or not-- it could destroy the PzIII.

Better to use grenadiers or etc to fish out enemy (as in real life). And use 40 sec turns.

This is a company or higher scale tactical game. It is an abstraction of how you deploy as group commander. If you sent a tank down a road without support it is _likely_ that it would be destroyed, regardless of the quick skills of any given human inside a tank.

If you are the actual doomed tanker it is possible that you --the doomed-by-your-dumb-commander tanker-- might be able to use your quick reflexes and good luck (ie exploitation of the other guy's bad hand eye or distraction) to survive that one moment.

But...

You deploy as a commander of groups. It isn't a shooter.

What you are asking entails having each vehicle be a first person hero --but by AI scope. If all vehicles pull back by AI deployment when they fault-er then how do any of them ever die? How do you as commander get scored?

Hmm....I beg to differ.

A heavy/medium tank, as in the example quoted, may well do as you suggested. However, if a lightly armoured vehicle such as an APC, a scout car or a light tank rounded a corner and spotted an enemy tank that obviously totally out-classed it, it would make perfect sense for it to withdraw immediately, assuming the commanddr didn't have a death wish. In that instance, AI controlled self-preservation would be preferable to merely sitting there awaiting further orders which is totally unrealistic at any tactical level.

CM may have exagerated that tendancy but, I would suggest, that too much is better than not at all. Just my two pennys worth.

Pete

Ive been playing it a bit to get used to it again, but to be honest, the more I read here, the less like the game Im playing right now it looks. I think the changes are so great I will be playing a different game entirely when it arrives.

For me, the biggest thing is that it will play on more modern machines.

Thanks, that is what I thought. I am looking forward to this as well.

Also, I would like to support Thomm here with regards to keeping things on a compare and contrast only type of posting regimen in the spirit of constructive debate. I think criticisms of other companies are not necessary and kind of classless. I do not see the culture of this forum supporting that kind of thing, which is nice to see.

Cheers!

Leto

< Message edited by [hirr]Leto -- 8/26/2010 6:02:04 PM >

(in reply to Geordie)

Post #: 58

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 6:27:20 PM

Pford

Posts: 235
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

In CM, having a generic 'all overmatched vehicles automatically retreat' stance could lead to frustrations especially with ambush situations but, on the other hand, it did allow the lighter stuff to have a chance of getting away. As I understand it, PC tends to work the opposite way. So neither solution is good for all sitautions.

Haven't fired up CMBB in two years but I recall that a tank would shift into reverse even if it had mis-IDed the threat. E.g., mistaking a MK4 for a Tiger. Which begs the question: will crews in PCO make the same error? Realistically in CM, the tendency was to exaggerate that threat.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the auto-reverse feature was added in a patch for CMBO or CMBB.

(in reply to jamespcrowley)

Post #: 59

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 8/26/2010 6:50:16 PM

rickier65

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pford

quote:

In CM, having a generic 'all overmatched vehicles automatically retreat' stance could lead to frustrations especially with ambush situations but, on the other hand, it did allow the lighter stuff to have a chance of getting away. As I understand it, PC tends to work the opposite way. So neither solution is good for all sitautions.

Haven't fired up CMBB in two years but I recall that a tank would shift into reverse even if it had mis-IDed the threat. E.g., mistaking a MK4 for a Tiger. Which begs the question: will crews in PCO make the same error? Realistically in CM, the tendency was to exaggerate that threat.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the auto-reverse feature was added in a patch for CMBO or CMBB.

In this release Units don't mis-identify a vehicle. though units might not identify an enemy unit and just see a "?" instead of the actual unit type.

Thanks
Rick

(in reply to Pford)

Post #: 60