RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 8:27:17 PM

Erik Rutins

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Here are the plots for Turn 3, just getting everyone into position and moving up the 3rd Platoon to a reserve position until I hear more advice regarding how to use it.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 8:37:27 PM

Erik Rutins

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Ok, Turn 3 Finished! Everyone is in position now. Here's the latest look at the map.

I need some more input and advice now. No enemy contact so far - the woods objective did switch to our control due to proximity, but we haven't gone far enough in to truly scout the woods yet. Proceed with the plan for 1st and 2nd platoon and send them further in to clear the woods? Keep the Panzers where they are for support or send them out on the flank to the crest or farther out to the right edge of the map?

What about 3rd platoon? Keep it in reserve, send it into the woods to support 1st and 2nd platoons, or send it around one flank or the other?

I will run the next turn in about an hour, so please get me your feedback by then!

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 9:40:31 PM

Plodder

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We should keep our options open for the moment and stick with the plan.Keep 3 Plt. in reserve for the moment.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:02:56 PM

jamespcrowley

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I would be inclined to keep 3rd platoon on the road but move it towards a parallel postion with 2nd platoon's current position. It is doing no good where it is and will then be in a position to help 1st or 2nd, if required.
What LoS do the panzers have - can they see beyond the next tree line in the direction they are facing towards the limit of the map? If not, I would consider sending a section forward to that tree line, with the HQ and remaining section on overwatch.

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Post #: 34

RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:11:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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Ok, thank you to my "war council" for your advice. Based on your comments, I will keep 3rd Platoon in reserve, but move it forward halfway towards the 2nd Platoon position. I will also move a section of Panzers forward, as the platoon's LOS currently ends at the treeline thats on the crest of the field.

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Post #: 35

RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:17:27 PM

Erik Rutins

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Here are the plots for Turn 4. I've set 2nd Platoon to Bound forward. You can see the squad with the solid line is moving this phase, while the others with the transparent movement line are covering. They will switch in the next phase. 1st Platoon is Advancing. The Halftracks are also Advancing in support of 2nd Platoon. Let's see what we find in the woods!

3rd Platoon did a Regroup -> Wedge to a reserve position closer to 2nd Platoon while still remaining available for movement in any direction.

The Panzer IIIL platoon switched to Engage orders and I kept the three on the left (that are closest to the infantry) on Engage->Hold so that they would automaticlaly provide fire support on any targets they spot, while the two on the right are on Engage->Move and heading for the next treeline to see what they can see.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:22:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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We have CONTACT! Here's a view of things from the HQ Panzer's position. You can see the section ahead and to the right. They spotted some Soviet tanks ahead once they got up that slope. I'll show you in the next few screenshots.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:24:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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Here's a view from the Panzer section on the right. You can see that they are being targeted.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:25:49 PM

Erik Rutins

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Here's a look from the turret of the rightmost Panzer.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:27:54 PM

Erik Rutins

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And here's the view from the enemy side - five T-70s in total (that I can see), targeting me from 530 meters away.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:32:03 PM

Erik Rutins

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Here are the T-70's specs. Making a very "quick and dirty" comparison, at about 530 meters it has around a 30-40% chance of hitting us with an AP shot and it has a penetration of 4 at that range. Our own APHE shot has about a 70-80% chance of hitting at that range, with a penetration of 6. Our average front armor is about 6.5 (mostly 6s and 7s), theirs is about 5.5 (mix of 4s and 7s).

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 10:36:45 PM

Erik Rutins

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So, I'll wait for more input and do another turn or two this evening.

There's no contact in the woods, so I will keep moving up there until we make contact, unless advised otherwise.

The main question now is what to do with the Panzers? Bring up the rest of the platoon? A quick tactical withdrawal with the section that is being targeted or should they start exchanging fire, given the Panzer IIIL's superiority to the T-70 at this range? Something else?

Should I continue to keep the 3rd Platoon of Panzergrenadiers in reserve?

Here's an overview shot to help you plan.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:06:54 PM

[hirr]Leto

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What are the potential % chances for gun damage hits and track immobilizations for the T-70's on the MK III's at that range? 5-2 is not a good set of odds, even if the larger force is inferior... I guess I'd like to know how the secondary damage system works.

Cheers!

Leto

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:22:28 PM

Erik Rutins

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Hi Leto,

Whenever a shot hits, the location is determined. In this case, it looks like the T-70s would be to our front, though slightly to the side. The specs for each vehicle have a number for each location. Top Deck and Top Turret are not accessible from this angle, so we're looking at locations 1-10 from the front.

Two of those are track locations, which on our Panzer IIILs have an armor value of 2. Five of those are Hull locations, with armor values 6, 6, 9u, 7s10, 7s10 (I explained these values in another thread). The last three are turret locations with armor values 7s10, 6/7s10 and 8s10.

The locations in general go from bottom to top, with 1 being the lowest track location and 10 being the highest turret location on the vehicle.

If we are hull down to the T-70s (I don't think we are, but if we back up a bit we might be) then the lower locations, including the tracks, could not be hit by their shots. Instead you'd see "ground hit deflected" if the shell would normally have hit those (and would hit the ground instead).

If they hit our tracks with a penetration of 4 vs. an armor of 2, there's still the variable penetration to consider and then they have to make their "D"estruction roll for their ammunition type (about a 30-40% chance for the T-70's 45mm AP), which means they are not guaranteed to cause damage to our tracks even with a hit. It takes two penetrating and damaging track hits to fully immobilize a vehicle, or one penetrating and damaging mobility hit (through the hull armor).

Hits on the turret can cause gun damage, so that's three out of ten locations, but again they would need to penetrate and damage. Any penetrating hit into the body of the tank has a number of critical damage types it can cause, up to and including destroying the vehicle in one shot, killing a crew member, damaging the gun, damaging the engine. The damage table is different based on where it penetrates, but any penetrating turret hit could cause gun damage.

Any hit, even if it doesn't penetrate, can also Stun the tank. The 45mm AP has a very small chance to Stun though.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 8/26/2010 11:27:50 PM >

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:25:19 PM

[hirr]Leto

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Which of the turret categories = the gun? I take it that the same principles would be applied to the damage or destruction of the gun?

Cheers!

Leto

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:26:48 PM

Erik Rutins

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Just edited my post above - any turret hit could potentially cause gun damage.

Also worth considering is that our ROF on our main gun is significantly higher than theirs. We can probably get 2-3 times as many shots off in the same time frame in ideal conditions.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:30:05 PM

Erik Rutins

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I should note that we currently do have flank shots on a lot of those T-70s. Their turrets just started turning towards us, but they have not yet turned their hulls. Their side hull armor is much weaker, but they could also turn their hulls at any time. Keep this in mind.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:41:21 PM

[hirr]Leto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just edited my post above - any turret hit could potentially cause gun damage.

Also worth considering is that our ROF on our main gun is significantly higher than theirs. We can probably get 2-3 times as many shots off in the same time frame in ideal conditions.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks Eric,

I just read the Tank Data thread. What are the probabilities assigned to gun damage on any turret hit? I know that size and type of shell are probably important, but I would like to know exactly how this works (I am such a pain in the arse I know).

: )

Cheers1

Leto

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/26/2010 11:43:21 PM

british exil

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ACHTUNG PANZER!!!
I would think the panzer leaders would shoot the "Ivan" before he could get a shot in. All enemy are in a perect position to be shot at, the Soviets are also heading towards the village= cover from the panzers and danger to advancing Pzr Grenadiere.
Plus the Soviets can manovere out to their right onto the ice and try to get into a better position.
The Panzer must shoot now or they lose the iniciative.

Mat

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 12:23:04 AM

Peterk1

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Start shooting. Hold position with the two panzers.
Rush the other Pz III's up to the same line and even up the odds. Let's gamble there aren't any ATGs hiding that held fire.
3rd platoon INF a little tighter against 2nd Platoon. Inf keep pushing forward.

Really fun idea with this Erik!

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 12:40:33 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto
I just read the Tank Data thread. What are the probabilities assigned to gun damage on any turret hit? I know that size and type of shell are probably important, but I would like to know exactly how this works (I am such a pain in the arse I know).

Hi Leto,

Basically, it has a chance to damage each location once it penetrates the armor and is inside the turret. The chance depends on its "D"estruction rating. For a turret hit from the front, that could be the main gun, the tank commander or outright destruction of the vehicle. Depending on the damage rolls, a penetrating hit could cause none or all of those results. I guess in the most basic sense that would mean that the Gun is 1/3 of the locations for a penetrating turret hit, but each penetrating hit has only about a 30% chance to damage the gun based on the 45mm AP stats and the 45mm AP has a fairly small chance of penetrating the turret.

The chance to damage the main gun per 45mm AP hit is therefore pretty small, though I haven't run the exact numbers as it gets pretty complex with the different possible hit locations for each hit and the variable penetration effects. That's what the game is there for, to do all those calculations.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:11:50 AM

Erik Rutins

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Ok, based on the advice so far, I will move up the rest of the Panzer Platoon. Meanwhile, the infantry will continue to move up, with 3rd Platoon as a close reserve. Next turn coming...

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:22:02 AM

Erik Rutins

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Here are the plots for Turn 4. I decided to target the two lead T-70s. The other Panzers are moving up with Engage->Move orders while the advanced section stopped moving and is using Engage-Target to fire APHE at those T-70s.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:26:20 AM

Erik Rutins

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Here's a look at the first 40 seconds of action. We manage to score five hits. Three are deflected, but we manage to cause mobility damage on the first T-70 and get a track hit on the second. All the T-70s did turn towards us and engage and they are actually moving to close the range. The first two have buttoned up thanks to our hits.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:28:06 AM

Erik Rutins

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Here's the view from the T-70s...

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:32:13 AM

Erik Rutins

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Here we are after a full 80 second turn. Two T-70s are effectively immobilized. The other three are trying to close the distance and returning fire sporadically as they move. So far no damage to our Panzers, however we haven't been lucky enough to destroy any T-70s as most of our hull hits seem to be bouncing off the stronger sloped armor. The full platoon is up now and we have no new contacts in the woods, so I will run one more turn with the same orders - to continue engaging the T-70s while the infantry keeps moving ahead in the woods.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:36:42 AM

Erik Rutins

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That last was actually Turn 5. Here are the plots for Turn 6.

Note that Panzer Command has full relative spotting, which means that each unit only gets to see what it actually sees and this is computed through a combination of terrain map and 3D LOS "ray" calculations. LOS calculations were improved again for Ostfront, so they are faster and more accurate than in Kharkov or Winterstorm.

You can see here that the selected Panzer IIIL can only see three of the five T-70s. When you have no unit selected, you see all the enemy units that are spotted by any of your units (basically the union of all LOS results), whereas when you select a unit the game shows you only what the selected unit can actually see.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:38:07 AM

Erik Rutins

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If we put ourselves in the turret of that Panzer IIIL, we can see that the slope blocks its LOS to the other two stationary T-70s.

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:42:13 AM

Erik Rutins

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With the full platoon firing, we score our first kill with a turret penetration. The T-70 does not explode, but it's no longer operational. We manage some hull penetrations too, but with no apparent effect.

We do take more return fire, though it is inaccurate, but one of the misses seems a bit "larger" than the others. Indeed, the shot came from beyond the T-70s and our tankers spot something else in the woods beyond the road... you can see it in the distance and on the minimap.

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< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 8/27/2010 1:43:01 AM >

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RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov - 8/27/2010 1:44:24 AM

Erik Rutins

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...and here's what just shot at us.

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