RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW

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RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/6/2010 2:13:53 PM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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I don't see any problem with continuing to play the game as it is now, other than OS incompatibility. I like the custom made campaigns and scenarios cause they are scripted so well it is like battling a real human commander - unpredictable and challenging. I bet it is real good by email or hotseat too though never tried. Then there are those epic campaigns which are probably sweet too.

I best get back to my Korsun campaign. Aye been distracted by this and that for awhile but always wanted to get back to the mud and agony of that experience. Damn fine design it is, built like the Reichstag.

I reckon not to give up on this classic, especially with the ton of custom work that's been put into it.

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Post #: 31

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/6/2010 5:28:07 PM

planner 3

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This topic comes up year after year, for the past 10 years, face it guys it isn't going to change. I also would love to see the old girl updated, but no plastic surgeon will do the job. Now the Botox genlemen have are working on lots of updates and different game versions, ie: Civil war, Korea, Nam etc., there still life in the old gal yet.

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Post #: 32

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/6/2010 7:22:04 PM

Nikademus

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There's only one improvement i pine for.......seperate message delay settings for AFV combat and small weapons fire. Other than that I'm happy with the game. Will be giving "Enhanced" a spin if i can carve out some time to play.

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Post #: 33

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/6/2010 11:05:17 PM

planner 3

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Nick....if you get the Enhanced Version, use the low Casualty (Lo Cas) settings, makes for a great game. Try it you"ll like it.

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Post #: 34

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/7/2010 2:03:35 AM

tracer

Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
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If MG would simply 'loan' us a programmer for a couple weeks, I'm confident that many of the changes/upgrades folks have been clamoring for could be accomplished.

If MG learned anything from the two SPWAW-successor projects* its that the game still has a large/loyal following, and also that it can count on community members who would step-up and assist them in any effort they make to improve the game.

So if you're listening David, maybe "third time's a charm"?

*Combat Leader & Steel Tigers

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Post #: 35

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/7/2010 3:31:29 PM

Alby

Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tracer

If MG would simply 'loan' us a programmer for a couple weeks, I'm confident that many of the changes/upgrades folks have been clamoring for could be accomplished.

If MG learned anything from the two SPWAW-successor projects* its that the game still has a large/loyal following, and also that it can count on community members who would step-up and assist them in any effort they make to improve the game.

So if you're listening David, maybe "third time's a charm"? �

*Combat Leader & Steel Tigers

We had a programmer for a few months, thats how enhanced came about...

But I hear ya Jim!!

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Post #: 36

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/7/2010 11:02:49 PM

Arctic Blast

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tracer

If MG would simply 'loan' us a programmer for a couple weeks, I'm confident that many of the changes/upgrades folks have been clamoring for could be accomplished.

If MG learned anything from the two SPWAW-successor projects* its that the game still has a large/loyal following, and also that it can count on community members who would step-up and assist them in any effort they make to improve the game.

So if you're listening David, maybe "third time's a charm"? �

*Combat Leader & Steel Tigers

Can't be an upgrade...Matrix has very limited use of the actual SP code. That's why it would have to be a totally new game built from the ground up.

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Post #: 37

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/11/2010 5:50:15 AM

JEB Davis

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From: Michigan, U.T.B.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: planner 3

Nick....if you get the Enhanced Version, use the low Casualty (Lo Cas) settings, makes for a great game. Try it you"ll like it.

Did someone say "Low Carnage"?

Just check my sig. line.

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Post #: 38

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/11/2010 4:27:02 PM

planner 3

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Lo Carnage then.....Lo casualty....Lo dead...LOL

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Post #: 39

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/11/2010 6:09:36 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: planner 3

Nick....if you get the Enhanced Version, use the low Casualty (Lo Cas) settings, makes for a great game. Try it you"ll like it.

I plan on it. I've been playing a "low infantry" setting of my own for some time (but the only value i changed was Infantry toughness which i maxed to 200%) The evaporating infantry of WaW was always it's biggest problem due to it having been based on the SP-III engine.

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Post #: 40

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/11/2010 6:47:01 PM

gabeeg

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I think for those of you depressed over the state of SPWAW (and you should be) should continue to enjoy SPWAW for as long as you can. Thanks to the work of a few, that might be awhile (enhanced fr, etc.). But you should stop beating a dead horse, instead put some effort where it can be productive...I am talking about WinSPWWII...wait..wait... hear me out! I started out playing SPWAW and loved it and a couple of times I got curious and downloaded and tried out WinSPWW2 (might have been DOS still...dont recall). Each time I would end up removing WinSPWW2 after awhile and sticking with only SPWAW. I played SPWAW sparingly in single player mind you. I love the work that the Enhanced team did but sometime a year or so ago I just could not take it anymore...SPWAW was ugly and there were issues and limitations. I love the Steel Panthers games and did not want to give up so downloaded WinSPWWII again...and stuck with it this time to give it a real chance. It is different, but it is really basically the same game (you know chimps and humans have 99% the same code right :) ). I now love it and play single as well as PBEM...and the great thing is...there are developers to bitch at and to request changes from! WinSPWW2 already allows higher resolutions...but get this...Camo is introducing wide-screen support! It is currently in public beta only for WinSPMBT right now but will be included in WinSPWW2. I never got the religious "SPWAW is better than WinSPWW2" or vice-versus arguments, to each there own and if you ask me they are both great games! Unfortunately SPWAW has a brickwall in front of it where WinSPWW2 doesn't. Why not play both and contribute your input into making WinSPWW2 a better game...at least it has a future (no offense to those people that have done amazing things with SPWAW...but there is only so much that can be done without the source.)

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Post #: 41

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/11/2010 11:01:40 PM

KG Erwin

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Sorry, gabeeg, but you are definitely barking up the wrong tree. The SPWAW crowd is a hardcore group, dedicated to keeping it alive. And, so far they have done an excellent job of it. Do you want to support this effort? Fine. Otherwise, you will quickly find yourself ignored.

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Post #: 42

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/12/2010 1:13:07 AM

gabeeg

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Ahh...the emotional attachment...I totally understand. But I just do not get is, why the exclusivity? My message was more for the people saying that they love Steel Panthers but the they do not see a future in SPWAW so are moving on. Seems like a lot of players of both games that have played them for years and are emotionally, materially invested have a hard time enjoying, and supporting both games. I love both...I played both. Seems self defeating to ignore a version of Steel Panthers that you can run on your large monitor comfortably and on your new OS, and just proclaiming the death of SPWAW and therefore Steel Panthers. If you enjoy SPWAW currently by all means continue to enjoy it, but if someone claims that they cannot enjoy it anymore because of what SPWAW cannot do therefore Steel Panthers is no longer an option...there are options.

Too me, both SPWAW and WinSPWW2 are the top squad based WW2 tactical games (HPS squad battles is a close second). Between the two is a matter of personal taste..no wrong or right. But what I am not buying is that there is a huge difference between the two Steel Panthers games and either one cannot "touch" the other in terms of game play...they are way more similar than they are different.

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Post #: 43

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/12/2010 12:42:17 PM

Alby

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Its the rather sp1, 2 and 3ish clunky combat routine in spww2 and spmbt I cant take, I got spolied on Spwaw, not too mention the years of work i have put into it

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Post #: 44

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/12/2010 3:41:25 PM

planner 3

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I tried SPWW2 a few times and found it veeerrryy sloooooow, in comparison to SSI games I had years ago. Otherwise it had potential. but it took up much needed space from my machine.

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Post #: 45

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/13/2010 7:46:02 PM

Nikademus

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WinSPWW2 is an option I plan on pursuing. Currently own the registered version of WinSPMBT. The higher resolutions are GORGEOUS on my new 24" LED widescreen. The infantry model is far superior to WAW.....but the main reason i have stuck with WAW over the years is the new armor/pen model expressed in actual milimeter and AoI. I also love the detailed info one gets on weapon penetration per hit. Sadly though, this is marred by the one setting fits all msg delay so one can't really enjoy that feature for larger battles unless one is willing to commit an entire afternoon to just getting a few turns into it. While the AFV combat details is great, I really don't need to see the %'s and other nitty grittys for small arms fire. Ultimately one has to set the delay to off or at a speed that makes it impossible to see the info in order to speed up the game.

Havn't had any speed issues with WinSPMBT but in windowed mode there is an annoying hestitation while scrolling around the map and giving orders. Game "hiccups" (freezes) for an average of 5-8 seconds semi-frequently. Not an issue now that I can do widescreen. The huge number of new scenarios and terrain and vehicle types is also an attraction to the latest WinSPWW2.

I have no problem playing both WAW and WW2....but when one's time is constrained, one tends to have to go with one or the other consistantly causing a dilemma.

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Post #: 46

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/16/2010 3:05:29 AM

JEB Davis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: planner 3

Nick....if you get the Enhanced Version, use the low Casualty (Lo Cas) settings, makes for a great game. Try it you"ll like it.

I plan on it. I've been playing a "low infantry" setting of my own for some time (but the only value i changed was Infantry toughness which i maxed to 200%) The evaporating infantry of WaW was always it's biggest problem due to it having been based on the SP-III engine.

Nikademus, I'm curious about what you think of the effects of artillery on the infantry using only your 200 Inf.Tough. along with 100 Artillery.

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Post #: 47

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/16/2010 4:04:30 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis

Nikademus, I'm curious about what you think of the effects of artillery on the infantry using only your 200 Inf.Tough. along with 100 Artillery.

Arty casualties go way down, as with small arms fire, to a more reasonable level. Primary effect especially in cover terrain, zero movement is suppression effects (vs. casualties) which then allows one to root them out of their positions. On the default settings all you have to do (usually) is fire at them a few times and they'll take casualties and retreat. At times it probably is too anemic (which is why i'm interested in the LC settings) but overall i found it a better game experience. Inf units caught in the open and/or moving can still be mowed down by MG and HE arty fire (AFV or arty) I also play with auto-rally off as i found over the years that that was the biggest culprit (next to the general fragileness of soft units under the SP-III engine) to mass slaughter. Units don't retreat 9 out of 10 times...they auto rally and sit there and get anhilated. (which is why i don't think the SPWW2/MBT model suffers for not having an "auto rally" feature during the opposing side's turn, making them more survivable)

Biggest problem is that the typical scenario tends to be short on turns, optimized for default settings which, as most know, one can get quick results evaporating enemy soft targets with the application of mass firepower. With the INF toughness set to max, depending on the scenario it can be next to impossible to achieve the objective hexes in the time allotted.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 8/16/2010 4:07:27 PM >

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RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/21/2010 4:37:35 PM

JEB Davis

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From: Michigan, U.T.B.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis

Nikademus, I'm curious about what you think of the effects of artillery on the infantry using only your 200 Inf.Tough. along with 100 Artillery.

Arty casualties go way down, as with small arms fire, to a more reasonable level. Primary effect especially in cover terrain, zero movement is suppression effects (vs. casualties) which then allows one to root them out of their positions. On the default settings all you have to do (usually) is fire at them a few times and they'll take casualties and retreat. At times it probably is too anemic (which is why i'm interested in the LC settings) but overall i found it a better game experience. Inf units caught in the open and/or moving can still be mowed down by MG and HE arty fire (AFV or arty) I also play with auto-rally off as i found over the years that that was the biggest culprit (next to the general fragileness of soft units under the SP-III engine) to mass slaughter. Units don't retreat 9 out of 10 times...they auto rally and sit there and get anhilated. (which is why i don't think the SPWW2/MBT model suffers for not having an "auto rally" feature during the opposing side's turn, making them more survivable)

Biggest problem is that the typical scenario tends to be short on turns, optimized for default settings which, as most know, one can get quick results evaporating enemy soft targets with the application of mass firepower. With the INF toughness set to max, depending on the scenario it can be next to impossible to achieve the objective hexes in the time allotted.

Thank you for the well thought out reply. Your observations regarding default settings completely agree with my own. It may seem that my LC arty settings 180 vs soft & 130 vs armor could be too high, but in play you may find them pretty good. You're not going to see many casualties from "unobserved" artillery bombardments, so it encourages use of "spotted" fire (having your calling unit with LOS to target hex) to gain a more effective result. With LC settings (using C&C of course), a dug-in (in-cover or entrenched) infantry unit is going to take casualties infrequently, and low levels of suppression. They will have to be rooted out, or fired upon from close range to get them to retreat from their cover. Careful use of stance changes is highly recommended. If you have the orders to spare, switching a scout or other slowly advancing unit to "defend" mode as they advance by bounds into known enemy observed areas can enhance their survivability greatly.

Your comments regarding AutoRally OFF are superbly stated. The LC fans completely agree, retreating troops are retreating for a reason... why let the computer control them and try to make them stand & die?

The shortness of turns is absolutely true if the scenario was designed for default settings. I would recommend a quick edit of the scenario to add 25% or more turns. This is a rough guess, since I almost only play PBEM games.

During testing to come up with the current Low Carnage settings, we did test Inf.Tough 200, just so you know that. I'm interested in your input. Have you visted the Enhanced Forum and seen our work with the North Afrika mod and PBEM Battalion Commander campaign concept?

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Post #: 49

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/23/2010 4:07:05 PM

geozero

Posts: 1886
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

This is a game in which I invested nearly 10 years of my life to develop and improve it. Without a doubt, it was worth every minute. For me it is the greatest tac-level game ever to see the light of day.

Now to see it slipping away is sad, very sad. But then I think of so many things in life and war that have slipped away with time. For me it is timeless, but then neither the game nor I are that. I began with scenario design and testing for the first Steel Panthers, back in when...1994? That was a long time ago! Since then, retirement from my work, divorce, remarriage and a lot of other things have transpired.

I hope someday another tactical level game of this caliber will appear. So far it has not. So like others, I'll keep an XP computer just for the game if nothing else. Hundreds of scenarios, campaigns and 3 mega campaigns later, and it is still my favorite. I think it is the only game I never tire of.

Thanks to all of you loyal SPWAW players! You kept me going at it even in the hardest of times.

Wasn't COMBAT LEADER CROSS OF IRON going to be the new game to supersede SP and looked promising? I spent some tim on testing, data research, etc. all for not about... damn, it was 7 years ago!

Now that new game would have kicked serious butt... someone, somewhere has got to push it through.

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Post #: 50

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/24/2010 5:21:25 PM

Alby

Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

This is a game in which I invested nearly 10 years of my life to develop and improve it. Without a doubt, it was worth every minute. For me it is the greatest tac-level game ever to see the light of day.

Now to see it slipping away is sad, very sad. But then I think of so many things in life and war that have slipped away with time. For me it is timeless, but then neither the game nor I are that. I began with scenario design and testing for the first Steel Panthers, back in when...1994? That was a long time ago! Since then, retirement from my work, divorce, remarriage and a lot of other things have transpired.

I hope someday another tactical level game of this caliber will appear. So far it has not. So like others, I'll keep an XP computer just for the game if nothing else. Hundreds of scenarios, campaigns and 3 mega campaigns later, and it is still my favorite. I think it is the only game I never tire of.

Thanks to all of you loyal SPWAW players! You kept me going at it even in the hardest of times.

Wasn't COMBAT LEADER CROSS OF IRON going to be the new game to supersede SP and looked promising? I spent some tim on testing, data research, etc. all for not about... damn, it was 7 years ago!

Now that new game would have kicked serious butt... someone, somewhere has got to push it through.

After thaT CAME sTEEL TIGERS, WHICH A NUMBER OF US WORKED ON FOR AWHILE, THEN THE PROGRAMMERS AND mATRIX personnel just vanished with no explanation

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RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/25/2010 1:25:58 AM

Maruader

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Greetings,

It has sure been a long time since I posted last, a few years! This is Maruader Mel, part of the SPWAW team and Mega Camp Teams. SPWAW is a great game and wish it could be redone but with new Compute systems - this would take a total redsign. There was another game in the works but other issues came about that prevented this new game coming on line that I cannot give details too. I still have some of the new game data in storage and it belongs to Matrix. I called and emailed David Heath about this last March but never was able to get thru so I stopped trying to contact. Would like David Heath to give me a call - so I am posting here and see what happenes

Anyways, as for SPww2 - that system is way too slow between turns as well as takes twice or four times as long to play a 12 turn Large or Med size scenario than does SPwaw. We did our best designeing SPwaw and the OOB's were difficult. Many units could not fit into the curent system and we had about as many people working on these oobs as there are oobs as well. I made the mistake in the early days of adding AP fire too HMG and MMG's wich caused AVF's to become immobile too easily. My error and that was fixed. An unforseen code issue caused this. The reason for AP ammo for MG's was to reflect early war HMG AT roles and later for Halftracks( i.e 50cal vs enemy HT). Also glad to see the new fixes to the OOBs out now. Also was the decision to move weapon data from the old 6.0 era OOBs to the 7 to 8.0 ones. This caused problems as well but again there were limited amount of slots in the weapon data and an upate was needed, so the decision to change these had to be made. Many of my own scenarios and campaigns were effected by this as well as everyones elses at the time so many of us went about changing them. Glad to see the newest OOB changes and for those of you who worked on the newest - well done - now you had a taste of what we went thru all those years ago.

Anyways - I still have SPwaw on my old computer and can only run it from there but the old PC may not last much longer. I go back and look at all the old scerarions and maps made. Play a few. Nice break in the day! Lot of memories on working on all this with Wild Bill and the Team!

Well, if David Heath is around - let him know to give me a call or a PM.

Maruader
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Post #: 52

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/25/2010 9:53:39 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis

During testing to come up with the current Low Carnage settings, we did test Inf.Tough 200, just so you know that. I'm interested in your input. Have you visted the Enhanced Forum and seen our work with the North Afrika mod and PBEM Battalion Commander campaign concept?

I browsed the Enhanced Forum last week for the first time have downloaded the Enhanced mod but havn't put it through it's paces yet. Digital downloaded the latest WinSPWW2 this weekend and have been giving the first few scenarios for it a spin. Between the three Panthers games (including WinSPMBT), I think i have alot of future gaming ahead of me.

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Post #: 53

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/25/2010 11:27:29 PM

Warhorse

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From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
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Very interesting thread, good to hear from you Marauder Mel, as well as Wild Bill!! I remember helping out developing this game when it was a SP3 mod, guys, remember this one..."Steel Lightning"!!!??? Scott Grasse did that, I jumped on, the David Heath got me on their team, met WBW and all the other great fellows, man, that was a long time ago!! I think one of my old hard drives still has Steel Lightning on it!!!

Anyhow, good to hear from the "oldtimers", and although my attention has shifted these last years to developing Campaign Series Games, I still have a soft spot for the "Old Girl"!! I had come up with a Korean War Mod for SPWAW, but decided to also do that with Campaign Series also, after a bad hard drive crash lost most of my work.

Thanks again all for taking this game this far!!

Mike

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Post #: 54

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 8/27/2010 6:49:26 PM

Maruader

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Yes - I remember - my how time flies!

Maybe a new game can come out and replace the old gal!
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Post #: 55

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 10/13/2010 2:09:29 AM

Panama

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Want to know how well a game is doing? Look at opponents wanted.

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RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 10/13/2010 2:27:51 AM

junk2drive

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I'm content playing the AI so Ops wanted means nothing to me. Most of the action has moved to other websites.

For me Slitherine's BBC BA has replaced SP. It's 3D so I can see the units. It's simple and fun. Probably not detailed enough for most of the old crowd. But great for those that burned out on the originals.

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Post #: 57

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 11/25/2010 11:13:42 AM

diablo1

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quote:

means that SPWAW will continue to be Matrix's tactical WW2 game for the foreseeable future.

Ummm I think you better take another look....Panzer Command:Winter Storm and Panzer Command:Kharkov are Matrix's tactical WW2 games in the common present and in the "foreseeable" future Panzer Command:Osfront is on the horizon. It even has a better ai than Steel Panthers.

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Post #: 58

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 11/25/2010 11:19:57 AM

diablo1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

As long as my old PC (with Win XP) is running, SPWAW will remain on my HD. We should be thankful that a group of dedicated fans keeps the game alive.

If you wanna keep playing, simply buy a used PC with Win XP strictly for SPWAW and other old games.

Matrix is finished with the SP engine. You may as well get over it.

This is what's great about the NETBOOK with WinXP installed. It's small and compact and you can store your old games that don't run well or at all on newer desktops or laptops and it doesn't clutter up your desk or your area. I've got one now with a 320mb drive and am loading up all my old DOS games and games for Windows98/XP that won't work on Vista or Win7. Of course I have SPWAW General's Edition and will have it and be able to play it now without fret.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 59

RE: Something needs to be done about SPWAW - 11/26/2010 3:11:12 AM

Saburo

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline

Nice to see how many others love the SP series. Maybe we could lobby Gary Grigsby to re-do SP?

I can't complain at all I have had sooooo many hours of fun with this game and I am grateful Matrix and the Camo group etc have updated it. Sometimes I even DL the original 1.2 version and play it.
I do see the profit issue, i am an old Avalon Hill gamer and love the hexes and turned based gaming; but the young folks do not seem interested.

I do think it is good for folks to share how much they would love an updated version, even if it won't happen. I see it as a kind of tribute.

Wild Bill, i have benefited and enjoyed your work. I am happy that your wife is doing well! And that is a reminder of what is really important after all.

I am one of those few who would pay a lot more than the market would support for a revised SP with new OS and resolution compatibility; but I know there just aren't enough of us to make it profitable. That's OK it's the day to give thanks for all forms of happiness and community.
Best to ya'll

Oh, yeah. This SP WaW brought me to Matrix in the 1st place and I have enjoyed several of their new games as well, as a result.

< Message edited by Saburo -- 11/26/2010 3:13:26 AM >

(in reply to diablo1)

Post #: 60

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