US Coral Sea Strategy

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> US Coral Sea Strategy

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US Coral Sea Strategy - 8/7/2002 9:08:10 PM

Michael Walker

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I've started several Coral Sea scenarios and so far had a difficult time resisting the Japanese onslaught. They only time the IJN carriers didn't rapidly move south and take out the US CV force was when LBA attacked the landing force and aborted it.

I'm also wondering about the exchange between these two forces. Granted, in all of these scenarios the IJN did not break off the Shoho and send it down first by itself. I don't know if this alone accounts for the outcome. But in my several games what seems to happen is that if the US waits south west of Gili Gili, they can avoid Japanese LBA, and perhaps get in the first strike. However, I have never seen more than a single hit on any one CV and none of them has been incapacitated (though "serious" damage has been reported). In the second part of this exchange, the IJN sends its strikes with the usual result that one of the US CVs is sunk, often with more than a half dozen hits of various sorts, and the other is heavily damaged and barely able to limp back to port.

Has anyone else come up with a winning US strategy for Coral Sea? Does the presence of Shoho and the unifying of these TFs provide an adequate explanation for the seeming insurmountable US odds?

Mike

Post #: 1

- 8/7/2002 10:35:29 PM

Drongo

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From: Melb. Oztralia
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Michael,

A good way to pick up tactics to improve your results would be to do a search of the forum using the key words like "Coral Sea" or "scenario 17" (scenario 17 has same or similar start to Coral Sea). Good USN tactics have been discussed in quite a few threads.

Briefly, you will see a lot of opinions that early stage, direct toe to toe fights with the IJN carriers should be avoided unless LBA is available. The critical step is to hold your carriers back for an opportune strike when the IJN has been weakened. Use whatever transport a/c you can to fly base aviation units and engineer units to PM. Get whatever sea transports you can to rush same unit types there if possible. If you can increase the a/c support level of PM by enough, you can switch your mediums there and use them to smash the approaching transports. More importantly, they can hurt the IJN CV's. Use them at 1000ft or less. Dont worry about escorting them. Hopefully, the engineers can keep the airbase at PM operational despite Jap bombers. Mass your subs into expected invasion points (PM and Gilli Gilli). Heaps of other stuff in threads.

In terms of the carrier battle results, it's a tough deal for USN. IJN aircrews normally have exp in 80's. USN in 70's. Biggest problem is that IJN airstrikes tend to hit in one big strike while USN in several smaller ones (therefore IJN CAP better chance). Couple of quick pointers :
1) Your a/c are more durable. They will generally tough their way through CAP better than the IJN's. For that reason, keep most of your fighters on CAP. Also allows max use of radar bonus to USN fighters.
2) Set your fighters above 10000 ft (12000 or 15000). AI always comes in at 10000. May give you an improved return.

Good Luck and don't give up the ship!;)

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(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 2

- 8/7/2002 11:12:02 PM

Michael Walker

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Thanks for the suggestion on finding other posts on this subject. I am certainly aware of the basic advantages the Japanese have at this time, I am just wondering whether there is an implicit assumption that the US was extremely lucky at Coral Sea. If not, wouldn't at least some of the outcomes be historical?

I would add a couple of points on the units involved as well. I agree that the Japanese should have a huge edge, particularly in the skill of their attack squadrons. Staging of strikes and co-ordination of CAP should probably be a Japanese advantage as well. In spite of US radar CAP was a disaster at Coral Sea. I would argue however that the skill of USN fighter pilots should be at least equal to that of the Japanese. Lundstrom's First Team series establishes not only the statistical fact that USN pilots did very well against the IJN (Coral Sea being the biggest exception), but that their training and tactics were superior. The combat experience of the IJN and flying time were certainly big assets, but when you consider that the US did a lousy job of protecting its carriers, and the only one lost was the result of critical damage (gas leak) and not the physical damage inflicting by the bombs and torpedoes, I'm wondering if something should be tweaked to make this outcome at least a possibility. Unless one comes to the conclusion that the presence of the Shoho and her escorts fundamentally alters the engagement, which is possible, shouldn't the US fare better?

Mike

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 3

- 8/8/2002 12:00:07 AM

John Carney

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I have had the results of Sinking Shukaku and Shoho with crippling damage to Zuikaku. While only losing the Yorktown to counter strike by Zuikaku during the Coral Sea ingagment. I had the two US CV in seperate TF in adjacent hexes, initially under LRCAP from Townsville. CV TF's responded to IJN, first IJN strike did not find US TF's, my strike crippled Shukaku. Second strike IJN hit Yorktown, I left both Shukaku and Zuikaku burning. Chased him down to sink Shoho and Shukaku. Just good old American luck, I guess. Never did that good again (as of yet).

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 4

- 8/8/2002 1:29:45 AM

Drongo

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Mike,

If you want my uninformed opinion, maybe the USN had a bit of luck on their side. Coral Sea is a tricky one as, despite IJN "advantages", both sides had to learn the ropes. I've never read Lundstrom but you'd think it possible that in the chaos of the first CV vs CV battle, the US advantages may not have had a chance to make an impact.

You mentioned that, despite radar, USN CAP was a disaster at Coral Sea. I haven't read an account of the battle for a while but I do remember that poor CAP handling by inexperienced CAP control teams dogged the US in the three CV vs CV battles in the South Pacific during 42. The radar would generally give sufficient warning but in the end the CAP pilots were often left having to use their own judgement due to confusion, communication problems, etc.

Since your post, I checked the Coral Sea scenario. The quality advantage of CV IJN pilots over USN is only about 80 to 75 (that is both fighter and attack pilots). Pretty Marginal. The Shoho's mob are the worst of the bunch. IMO, I would have thought they got the qualities about right as the I'd read that the Zuik and Shok air groups at the time were considered good not elite like the other 4 IJN CV's.

Hopefully, those blokes circling around out there will take your bait and you'll get your discussion. One of the good things about discussions is that Big Matrix is watching and taking note. Tweaks are not unheard of.

BTW, my first attempt at Coral Sea as the USN resulted in a bloody draw (both lost 1 CV sunk and 1 hv dam. - happily my CV's got to TBD range!!!). After that I went straight to the long campaigns. Based on that one attempt, I had thought the 2 sides were fairly well matched. Obviously you've had a different time of it!

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Post #: 5

Coral Sea - 8/8/2002 2:04:03 AM

CynicAl

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If you look only at aircraft lost in the air, the performance of the US VF squadrons at Coral Sea looks quite a bit better - the final numbers are skewed by all the aircraft lost aboard Lexington. As a practical matter, it doesn't matter - shot down or sunk, they were gone either way. But if you're trying to figure out how good (or bad) USN aircrews were in 1942, it just might be relevant...

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 6

- 8/8/2002 2:05:50 AM

Michael Walker

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Hi Drongo,

I'd highly recommend Lundstrom, he literally accounts for every aircraft enconter, loss etc., during all of the key fighting in '42 by the USN aviation. The fighter pilots flying on the Yorktown and Lexington were amongst the best of a good bunch. Concrete examples: the USN was the only air service in the world to train extensively in deflection gunfire. Many US pilots did have extensive years of training, and among those present at Coral Sea were Jimmy Thach and Butch O'Hare. The Thach Weave enabled the USN to fight effectively against the Zero until a better aircraft came along (1st used at Midway). Lundstrom shows that through Midway in Fighter v. Fighter encounters the USN killed 3 A5M4s & 14 Zeros, with 14 pilots lost against losses of 10 Wildcats with 7 pilots killed. Among the weaknesses he points out about the Japanese: the inefficent 3 plane element. Bottom line is that when you're talking fighters, the USN had the upper hand even in the beginning.

CAP was a disaster at Coral Sea-- imagine what would happen in UV if you had 8 Wildcats on CAP, and they were mishandled! (ie they were split up and failed to even intercept).

Despite no effective fighter CAP the Japanese did not manage to ravage either of these ships, though you might consider 4 hits on the Lex pretty serious.

One can find plenty of errors on the part of the Japanese. They lost over 20 aircraft the night previously when they launched a futile late strike attempt (the one that tried to land on US CVs). I wonder if this is possible in UV? Has anyone seen a late strike get lost? They didn't use the anvil torpedo technique on the Yorktown, and as a result achieved no hits.

I would rate the fighter pilots on York and Lex at least equal to those on the Sho and Zui, possibly better. Some of those individually represented (for example O'Hare and Tharp), should be VERY HIGH. The Shoho's pilots should be fair at best.

I suppose I could tweak some pilot ratings, but since the US didn't manage to set up effective CAP, talking about better pilots or use of LRCAP, doesn't deflect my concern that the Japanese are a little too tough in Coral Sea.

Mike

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 7

- 8/8/2002 3:22:21 AM

Drongo

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Mike,

Thanks for the info.

Re late day strikes : In UV, airstrikes can only occur twice per daytime (as you'd know). The morning/afternoon are just abstracted general periods, effectively identical. There is no exact "time" for a strike launch as far as I know. Strikes launch and return in the one general phase. For that reason, an afternoon strike wouldn't be at any more at risk of running out of daylight than a morning one.

Nice thought though (you sadistic bastard). Put it in one of the "ideas for future enhancements" threads and see what you get.

Speaking of daylight, I think its time I had a bit of shut eye. It's 6 in the morning over here in Oz and the sun's just lighting up the horizon. Raverdave and I PBEM'ed a little late tonight. War is hell.

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 8

- 8/12/2002 3:45:41 AM

Capt. Queeg

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I just finished playing Coral Sea as my first scenario. Won an Allied marginal victory. Oddly, the IJN carriers never advanced much beyond Rabaul and were not much of a factor (unless some of the A/C attacking PM were carrier-based and I just didn't notice it). In any event, although my carriers were spotted several times, they were never attacked. I wiped out most of the AP force near Gili Gili with air strikes from PM and my carriers and surface combat help from the cruiser TF out of Brisbaine. Perhaps that explains the wimpiness of the IJN carriers. It was fun nonetheless.

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 9

- 8/12/2002 6:10:10 AM

Black Cat

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[QUOTE] Perhaps that explains the wimpiness of the IJN carriers. It was fun nonetheless. [/B][/QUOTE]

I would never call them that to their cyber faces :D

Seriously, there are at least 5 different ( that I have seen so far )
opening moves that the Japanese CV`s do....I bet there are probably more... it`s great fun to head North and wipe out the Lunga Invasion TF...that is until you are spotted by the Vals from their CV`s sitting North of the Island Chain and out of reach of your SBD`s...:eek:

Great name BTW..:cool:

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Post #: 10

- 8/31/2002 6:46:53 AM

RUPD3658

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I have won this scenario without every finding the Jap CVs. I hung back by PM and trashed a few APs and their escorts with my carrier air. They went home and so did I. The Allies win by points if the Japs don't take PM.

I guess my point is don't seek out a carrier battle if you don't have to. The biggest benifit to the Allies from the Battle of the Coral Sea (concidered a draw by most historians) was that the invasion force was turned back; not the carrier battle.

(in reply to Michael Walker)

Post #: 11

Coral Sea - 8/31/2002 7:09:38 AM

mogami

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Greetings. The first thing I do is send the CV from New Cal to Brisbane set to training. I have no intention of fighting a carrier battle unless the Japanese go for Port Moresby. The US CV stay in port and build thier aircrew. The CA form a TF and standoff to the south of Gili out of carrier range and wait for the Japanese transports. If the IJN CV move south my CV put to sea to shadow tham and try to get in strike range while the Japanese aircrew tire themselves out bombing land targets. There are no Japanese BB so the allied CA/CL/DD surface group under Chin Lee has a good shot at turning back any bombardment group.
Try to have the battle take place where PM can provide LRCAP and a few strikes of it's own. Rotate tired groups for fresh ones from the rear bases. The allies can win in one of three ways.
1. Turn the transports back
2. Win the surface battle
3. Win the carrier battle (at least remove the CV aircover the Japanese transports need)

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Post #: 12

as japs - 8/31/2002 1:44:46 PM

Chiteng

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As Japs I would never risk my CV in an even fight, and you dont need to. Land at Buna and walk to PM
Its easier, and no pesky allied Surface Fleet.

In the Scenario #17 you must sink the allied CV to win,
and that is hard. In the campaign game I just wait till
I have all 10 Cv and if he comes out I sink him.

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Post #: 13

IJN CV arrival - 9/1/2002 3:13:06 AM

mogami

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Greetings, I had the misfortune in 2 PBEM scen 17 of IHQ not releasing any of the CV in Japan till after Sept. The whole campaign quickly went down the tubes as I sent everything back to Japan hoping to trigger the release of the CV (6 sitting in Japan from mid July on) Meanwhile the USN recieved their CV and set about in conjunction with heavy bombers from l'ville and PM to closing my supply lines and making it impossible to keep ships in any port other then Truk. It was miserable.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 14

Yeah but... - 9/1/2002 10:12:32 PM

Michael Walker

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Its heartening that many of you have found a way to "win" scen 17 or Coral Sea's encounter between the 2 carrier forces. However, I am still concerened about the fact that an encounter that resembles the actual battle seems to offer a very very small chance of an historical outcome.

I believe that a possible problem is the low rating of American SBD pilots. For example, in my most recent solo attempt at this game, I spotted the Jap TF and hit it first. I caught them with mimimal CAP and out of my 60 SBD attack force, 55 were able to get through. Out of those 55 dive bomber 2 (yes 2) actually hit there targets. Predictably, I was then hit repeatedly and both CVs were sunk. I should note that the US was able to launch a unified strike, and was hit by repeated piecemeal ones, but still came out the BIG loser. Whatever the case may be, there does seem to be a significant play balance issue here.

MCW

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It isn't the pilots. - 9/2/2002 7:02:51 AM

Luskan

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55 SBDs usually get a lot more than two hits. You were unlucky.
Both my PBEM games just had the "early" carrier battles between Zuikaku, Shokaku, Shoho, and Lex and York.

The first one I was the IJN, and was out of fuel (embarassing and dangerous for a carrier tf that can't fly a CAP) and got refueled just in time to start air ops again - and catch Lex and York. Lex sank sometime after the 6th torpedo hit, and York didn't sink until the next day while Shoho got damaged 60 sys. 4 days of thunderstorms raised Shoho to 80 sys, where I moored her at the deserted friendly port of Tulagi - where NZtroopers subs torpedoed, shelled and torpedoed her until she sank.

Other game I was the USN, was 3 hexes from P.M, so there were only 8 fighters from hundred of fighters set to LRCAP at P.M helping the CAP, but it was enough to beat off the attack with just one DD torpedoed and Yorktown took a couple (unknown in case my opponent reads) of hits, although can still perform flight ops.

My response raid was really weak because it was out of devastator range and my f4f-3s were on 80% cap, but 27 dauntlesses put 8 hits on the Zuikaku (sank 2 days later) and at least one on the Shoho, possibly two (second was claimed by small group of b17s).

So I just clearly won 1 carrier battle clearly as the IJN because the f4f-3s just weren't tough enough to stop my airstrike, and I mostly won another as the USN - the reason I didn't wipe AA's ships off the face of the earth? It was may 1942, I had F4f-3's escorting and on cap, and I had devastators that couldn't reach his ships at all - if I'd had avengers things would have been fantastic.

It isn't the pilots, it is the planes - and that is how it is supposed to be! :eek:
Besides, the us aircraft strikes alway and resolve before the IJN strikes - so it just looked like you hit first because the computer showed it first. It was actually more or less simultaneous.

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