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PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 8:35:07 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		One of the main features of PC, that hasn't received a single line of text so far, are the campaigns.

There are 3 kinds of campaigns in PC.

Where each battle has it's own set OOB. All you do is play key battles in a row. I have a series of scenarios like that for CMAK. Where I follow the US 3rd Armored Division across Europe in 1944/45. You fight all the major engagements they fought. In PCO I can put them all in the same campaign. You can also assign key personnel to pick from in each battle if you would like that approach.

There is where you have some key battles interspersed with random battles. So you have a 6 scenario campaign where battles 1/3/5 are all historically major battles and battles 2/4/6 are all randomly generated to represent the other fights that were in between those major fights. You can assign key personnel that are available for each of these battles.

You can also have a completely random campaign. This can also be set up with set OOB's or random ones.

I have 5 campaigns that I'm thinking of putting together.

Barbarossa - where I follow a German Panzer Division through the early stages of the war.

Bagration - where I follow the 5th Panzer Division that arrives fresh from Germany to try to stop the Soviet destruction of Army Group Center.

Debrecen - the last great fluid tank action of the war.

Prokhorvka - the real tank engagements centered around Prokhorovka. Not the mythical huge tank battle but the myriad of smaller meeting engagements.

2nd Guards Mech Corps - to follow this Soviet armored unit from it's inception to the end of the war.

Good Hunting.

MR



_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Post #: 1
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 8:44:13 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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Status: offline 		Can you have a map of areas,two sides with starting forces and the ability to move on that map and thus create scenarios over multiple turns? The scenario would end when map objectives are achieved though the number of turns to achieve this would be determined by player moves and battle results.CAn player forces carry from scenario to scenario and the players between scenarios buy reinforcements?

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 2
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 9:14:39 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

Can you have a map of areas,two sides with starting forces and the ability to move on that map and thus create scenarios over multiple turns? The scenario would end when map objectives are achieved though the number of turns to achieve this would be determined by player moves and battle results.CAn player forces carry from scenario to scenario and the players between scenarios buy reinforcements?


Campaigns are linear for this release. A scenario designer could design a campaign where the victory conditions are such that you could accomplish what I think you described, but the limitation is still that the campaign is linear and not branching.

And yes, the campaign could allow you to carry your forces over from scen to scenario, along with buying both reinforcements and possibly replacements. The campaign system even in PCK is very flexible, but not very well documented as yet.

thanks
Rick

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 3
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 10:19:45 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

Can you have a map of areas,two sides with starting forces and the ability to move on that map and thus create scenarios over multiple turns? The scenario would end when map objectives are achieved though the number of turns to achieve this would be determined by player moves and battle results.CAn player forces carry from scenario to scenario and the players between scenarios buy reinforcements?


Campaigns are linear for this release. A scenario designer could design a campaign where the victory conditions are such that you could accomplish what I think you described, but the limitation is still that the campaign is linear and not branching.

And yes, the campaign could allow you to carry your forces over from scen to scenario, along with buying both reinforcements and possibly replacements. The campaign system even in PCK is very flexible, but not very well documented as yet.

thanks
Rick




Basically where the point of failure would be in my poor description of a campaign is the non-linear nature of what I am asking. For players to have choices of moving troops between various sectors,not one set battle after another.

What I am actually looking for is a tactical battle simulator,(which role PCO fulfills),that can carry carry out an open campaign between two players or two teams of players.

Now PCO can allow a player to choose their OOB and meet another player head to head to fight out a scenario.It can then keep track of those players forces.Save the forces at the end of the battle.

Can it allow those saved forces to be placed in another scenario? And after each battle is experience earned by units in the OOB?

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 4
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 10:44:33 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Player made campaigns all have new maps.
There is a 3 scenario northern thrust campaign at Kursk ending with the battle at Ponyri Station.
A 4 scenario southern thrust campaign at Kursk ending with the battle near Prokorovka.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 5
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 10:50:33 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Tophat I think what you are hoping for is more complex than what this game is.

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Post #: 6
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 10:51:19 PM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


Basically where the point of failure would be in my poor description of a campaign is the non-linear nature of what I am asking. For players to have choices of moving troops between various sectors,not one set battle after another.


Correct, campaigns in this release do not branch based on outcome. this would be something I'd like to see implemented in a future release.

quote:


What I am actually looking for is a tactical battle simulator,(which role PCO fulfills),that can carry carry out an open campaign between two players or two teams of players.

Now PCO can allow a player to choose their OOB and meet another player head to head to fight out a scenario.It can then keep track of those players forces.Save the forces at the end of the battle.

Can it allow those saved forces to be placed in another scenario? And after each battle is experience earned by units in the OOB?


Not directly. the forces and losses would/could be carried over to another battle IN a campaign, but again, it's not a branching campaign. Off the top of my head, I don't know of a way to grab those forces and place them into another battle of your choosing outside of a campaign.

thanks
Rick

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 7
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 10:58:57 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		This isn't like CMC. It doesn't have an operational layer over the top of a single battle simulator.

What PCO campaigns do is link scenarios from one to the next. The forces you have in one battle scenario can be determinant on what you have as a force in the next one.

However, the battle maps could be linked from actual terrain to a depth. Let's say from Kharkov to Stalingrad. The battles in that campaign could very well have actual terrain maps that are in line from Kharkov to Stalingrad.

What you wouldn't be able to do, which is what I think you're asking, is to go laterally around a specific battle area on an operational overlay. To fight the operational battle using PCO as the tactical battle generator for that campaign.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 9/4/2010 11:00:50 PM >

_____________________________

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 8
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:06:15 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


Basically where the point of failure would be in my poor description of a campaign is the non-linear nature of what I am asking. For players to have choices of moving troops between various sectors,not one set battle after another.


Correct, campaigns in this release do not branch based on outcome. this would be something I'd like to see implemented in a future release.

quote:


What I am actually looking for is a tactical battle simulator,(which role PCO fulfills),that can carry carry out an open campaign between two players or two teams of players.

Now PCO can allow a player to choose their OOB and meet another player head to head to fight out a scenario.It can then keep track of those players forces.Save the forces at the end of the battle.

Can it allow those saved forces to be placed in another scenario? And after each battle is experience earned by units in the OOB?


Not directly. the forces and losses would/could be carried over to another battle IN a campaign, but again, it's not a branching campaign. Off the top of my head, I don't know of a way to grab those forces and place them into another battle of your choosing outside of a campaign.

thanks
Rick




As long as their is a save file with the forces at the end of a battle and that file can be ported into another scenario its golden.

junk2drive......you are correct,but I don't need PCO to do it all.

PCO....can do maps and quite well at that with a 2km by 2km size its more than sufficient,the fact you can use google-earth and bring in real terrain adds sauce to the goose.

If PCO can handle recording losses after a scenario and porting that file into another scenario its a win.It doesn't have to do anything more.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 9
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:08:44 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

This isn't like CMC. It doesn't have an operational layer over the top of a single battle simulator.

What PCO campaigns do is link scenarios from one to the next. The forces you have in one battle scenario can be determinant on what you have as a force in the next one.

However, the battle maps could be linked from actual terrain to a depth. Let's say from Kharkov to Stalingrad. The battles in that campaign could very well have actual terrain maps that are in line from Kharkov to Stalingrad.

What you wouldn't be able to do, which is what I think you're asking, is to go laterally around a specific battle area on an operational overlay. To fight the operational battle using PCO as the tactical battle generator for that campaign.

Good Hunting.

MR




Bingo! You win the prize because that is exactly what I would like it to do. The fact it cannot,only means I need a work around which is what we have been doing with CM:BB for 7 yrs already.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 10
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:15:13 PM   
rickier65

 

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Joined: 4/20/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

As long as their is a save file with the forces at the end of a battle and that file can be ported into another scenario its golden.
.......

If PCO can handle recording losses after a scenario and porting that file into another scenario its a win.It doesn't have to do anything more.


I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is a save file you can import into another battle. There are some guys around that know better than I of course.

sorry,
rick

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 11
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:19:30 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

As long as their is a save file with the forces at the end of a battle and that file can be ported into another scenario its golden.
.......

If PCO can handle recording losses after a scenario and porting that file into another scenario its a win.It doesn't have to do anything more.


I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is a save file you can import into another battle. There are some guys around that know better than I of course.

sorry,
rick




That is fine,i also don't want to turn this thread into what PCO cannot do when there are so many things that it can do I certainly don't want to taint the impression of the game.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 12
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:28:13 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

As long as their is a save file with the forces at the end of a battle and that file can be ported into another scenario its golden.
.......

If PCO can handle recording losses after a scenario and porting that file into another scenario its a win.It doesn't have to do anything more.


I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is a save file you can import into another battle. There are some guys around that know better than I of course.

sorry,
rick




That is fine,i also don't want to turn this thread into what PCO cannot do when there are so many things that it can do I certainly don't want to taint the impression of the game.


thanks - I agree, and you are right, this game does have lots to offer, and I think that in the future releases there will be even more.

Thanks
rick

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 13
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/4/2010 11:38:19 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		PC's campaigns are very much a worthy part of the system already. As we go forward that should only get better.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 14
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/5/2010 1:24:24 AM   
madorosh


Posts: 390
Joined: 3/2/2003
Status: offline 		I think Tophat is asking about functionality for a Meta-Campaign type deal. Being able to edit endgame files would permit destroyed vehicles to be carried over, ditto forces.

The lack of destructible terrain kind of makes the maps themselves a bit beside the point - not being snide here, it's actually a bit of a plus in that regard.

If end-game forces could be saved as a data file and extracted for printing/editing, it would be a great meta-campaign tool.

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Post #: 15
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/5/2010 10:22:03 PM   
Peterk1

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 5/4/2003
Status: offline 		Similar question. Would it be possible to create a scenario programatically? If I understand correctly, you guys are using XML files for a lot of things, so conceivably it would be possible to have those files generated?
I have no idea if I would have the energy to ever try to do such a thing again as I did with CMBB, but it would be nice to know that the door is open to it.



(in reply to madorosh)
Post #: 16
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/5/2010 10:27:58 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		I suppose you could but I just looked at an xml and it is so much easier to use the editor.

I guess the scenario editor that we use is the "programatically" "generated" thing that you are talking about.

(in reply to Peterk1)
Post #: 17
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/5/2010 10:54:57 PM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peterk1

Similar question. Would it be possible to create a scenario programatically? If I understand correctly, you guys are using XML files for a lot of things, so conceivably it would be possible to have those files generated?
I have no idea if I would have the energy to ever try to do such a thing again as I did with CMBB, but it would be nice to know that the door is open to it.



I'm sure you could Peter, though the save files aren't xml (and for good reason I imagine).

Rick

(in reply to Peterk1)
Post #: 18
RE: PC Campaigns - 9/6/2010 1:19:31 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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Status: offline 		Yes, it would definitely be possible - that's basically what the Random Battle Generator does! You could re-use some of the same deployment templates and other presets that it uses if you write your own program.

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RE: PC Campaigns - 9/6/2010 4:43:16 AM   
Peterk1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I suppose you could but I just looked at an xml and it is so much easier to use the editor.

I guess the scenario editor that we use is the "programatically" "generated" thing that you are talking about.



No, not really.

The idea (which some CM players are obsessed with, by the way) is to write another program on top of PC which would drive it and generate PC scenarios transparently and behind the scenes. Players shouldn't even know the details of the generated scenarios.

This can be used for several things such as playing a long battle on a map which would be unplayable in a single PC map and also to come up with campaign type games which have different rules than that imposed by the original game (if the original game has a campaign system). You would sort of, conceivably, possibly be able to have a huge battle for all of Stalingrad with many players, in this manner, provided you had some access to the end of game information, preferably including map damage.

In CM, it was never really possible to generate a scenario outside of CM itself unless you were going to have a program to drive the scenario editor by generating phony mouse clicks. Difficult, totally painful and stupid. I still don't understand what exactly they gained by keeping their scenario format proprietary because in the end they never did anything with it themselves. Anyways, that doesn't really belong here. :)

Thanks for the answer Erik. Sounding really good.

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RE: PC Campaigns - 9/6/2010 4:54:28 AM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peterk1

The idea (which some CM players are obsessed with, by the way) is to write another program on top of PC which would drive it and generate PC scenarios transparently and behind the scenes. Players shouldn't even know the details of the generated scenarios.

This can be used for several things such as playing a long battle on a map which would be unplayable in a single PC map .....


While I haven't tried this, I think with the existing RCG and RBG, you could specify 1, 2, 3, or some arbitrary set of maps and then generate a random campaign based only on those maps. At least I think so. Actually, I'm sure you could.

rick

(in reply to Peterk1)
Post #: 21
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 9:44:16 AM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		That all sounds promising. I never seriously tried building a campaign (well..an operation) in CMx1 vor various reasons. First, it´s very hard to work with the ingame map editor, particualry when trying to build the required large maps from historical sources. Although two tools can be used to workaround some (Mapping Mission & Map Converter), I never got it working for maps larger than 1x1 km square. The minimum I need is 3x2 or even 3x4km size maps, to get a battalion size force operation working.

Secondly, if making an operation to be played vs the AI, the second battle will have the AI forces to be totally messed up, due to the inability of the engine to deploy AI forces in a reasoable manner. This also generates a situation, that from battle to battle, you always need to start again from a "lost enemy contact" situation, which is highly unrealistic.

So my vision for a PCO campaign (1-2 day operation actually), would be the first battle to focus on reconnaisance with appropiate forces (platoon size vs full enemy forces maybe), the second battle (on same map) playing full forces based on reccon made in first battle. This could be followed by subsequent battles on different maps, but looks like this by now is not possible, without branching and scripting features. The "Steel Panthers: WaW" scripted campaign system is a good example for what I mean.

Another issue would be the victory conditions system, which needs to be more flexible. A good example again, is the various victory flag types (including invisible ones) in "Steel Panthers: WaW". Personally most important to me, is a goals/victory locations system, that allows the goals of the enemy (and vice versa) to be "unknown", or at least partly unknown. On small maps, there is not much choice about what is "decisive" locations, but the larger the maps, the more options should be freely selectable by a player. With the simplified "take that flag" game system, you know right from the start, where the enmy is, or will bunch up at last. The enemy player does also. Beside the unavoidable predictability of a battle, the player is denied to choose his own decisive terrain for his chosen tactics.

I´ve seen hundreds of scenarios (some of my own included) which have victory locations placed in a manner, that leads to unrealistic game play. In example victory flags placed on hills, that are neither commanding features, nor otherwise important to win or loose a particular battle. Another nice example is the "take/defend a bridgehead" situation, where a player is forced to simply take a victory flag placed at one or the other end of a bridge. The real thing requires a player to deny the enemy observation and fire on the crossing site. This is something left to be found out by the players and not the scenario makers to enable a halfway realistic game play.

Off course this would be difficult (or impossible) for the AI engine to be understood and used, but features like that could be implemented for H2H only games.

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Post #: 22
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 3:40:51 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The thing to keep in mind is that what we are talking about here is a FREE UPGRADE for PCK. This is not a new game, well it is, but it's not.

All these major types of changes to the system are all scheduled to be looked at in PC4. As it was there were changes of some sort made to more than half the code.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 23
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 4:06:31 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, I was actually about to push discussion more into the future of PC4 developments. I´m already convinced about the capabilities of PCO and its editors, so it´s definitely on my purchase list for 2011 (after buying a new computer).

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Post #: 24
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 4:24:22 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		After PCO is released and gamers get to see what's actually inside then we can start the wishlists for PC4.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 25
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 9:12:42 PM   
gijas17


Posts: 199
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: due north
Status: offline 		I always wanted to create a large campaign representing the drive towards Moscow in 41' where set battles are placed by historic locations such as Smolensk, Klin, Tula, Solnechnogorsk, Moscow-Volga Canal and Krasnaya Polyana . I think one user on here (can't remember his sig) was creating one in the mods section for PC Kharkov but I would like to have this put in motion and now that will be possible in MM.

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Post #: 26
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/3/2010 9:41:44 PM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gijas

I always wanted to create a large campaign representing the drive towards Moscow in 41' where set battles are placed by historic locations such as Smolensk, Klin, Tula, Solnechnogorsk, Moscow-Volga Canal and Krasnaya Polyana . I think one user on here (can't remember his sig) was creating one in the mods section for PC Kharkov but I would like to have this put in motion and now that will be possible in MM.


One of the new campaigns that will in the release is Barbarossa - 3rd Pz Div. This is a short campaign of 4 battles that took place during the first month of operations.

Thanks
rick

(in reply to gijas17)
Post #: 27
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/7/2010 1:48:17 AM   
heinrich55

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		The system of a campaign with a core unit trying to survive through a series of battles is great. I recall that someone tried to put together this sort of thing for CM, which involved a dice-driven matrix to determine the details of the next battle, and kept track of units through spread sheets. I simply didn't have the time to attempt it, but it was a slick idea.

I am looking forward to trying this with PCO.

Heinrich55

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 28
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/7/2010 2:04:49 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heinrich55

The system of a campaign with a core unit trying to survive through a series of battles is great. I recall that someone tried to put together this sort of thing for CM, which involved a dice-driven matrix to determine the details of the next battle, and kept track of units through spread sheets. I simply didn't have the time to attempt it, but it was a slick idea.



'Rob O' put together a CM system that used a spreadsheet, with macros. I used it for a while with CM. It genned up the battle parameters, and after you played a scenario you put in your results and it genned up the next battle - it was actually pretty slick, but it still took a bit of effort on the players part to manage.

The PCO system takes care of that for you.

Thanks
rick

(in reply to heinrich55)
Post #: 29
RE: PC Campaigns - 10/7/2010 9:57:43 PM   
Lrfss


Posts: 349
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Spring, TX
Status: offline 		Are there going to be in any SS are Guard unit campaigns in PCO? It would be great if there were! I for one would like to see at least the possibility to use the RCG with Core SS & Guards in a Long Campaign going into '45. Also would like to see a bit more flexibility in the RCG in so far as Core unit selections and such?

Looking forward to this release coming out soon!

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 30
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