Mad Russian
Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
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ORIGINAL: NoxNoctum
Yes I read the lengthy post by Mad Russian before posting this, but I'm selfish and figured I'd get quicker and more responses if I made my own thread.
That was good starting point....
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It all sounds great from that thread, but obviously Mad Russian is biased (not his fault, he's on the team). I look at the reviews of PC: Winterstorm and PC: Kharkov and saw they both averaged around 6.2 and 6.7 respectively by the press. Slightly higher by players themselves (in the 7.3 range or so on average).
Now you can say, oh, but these mainstream gaming review websites (Gamespy, Gamespot, IGN, etc.) don't UNDERSTAND wargaming and aren't into it. That's why they give them bad reviews!
In response to that, I say this: CMBB got a 9.1 and Editor's choice award from Gamespot, THE most mainstream gaming website there is, a 94 from Gamespy, a 9 from IGN, and a 9 from PC Gamer. Those might just be the highest scores a wargame has ever achieved (as in a "wargaming" game, not "war game"). It averaged 8.9 from the press (metacritic), which is also extremely high for a wargame. Users gave it a 9.7 average. (also at metacritic)
You seem to have missed my posts where I said that I came to this project late because I passed completely on PC:OWS and only after PC:K did I begin to look at the PC series as a serious contender for a tactical WWII wargame.
You should also know that I was fairly active in the CM community. Not so much on the BFC site but fairly active at The Proving Grounds and The Scenario Depot I and II. I'm a Johnny Come Lately to the PC series.
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So please understand my skepticism as to whether PCO will surpass CMBB. Obviously it will in graphics, but I couldn't care less about that (like probably 90% of everyone on here).
You won't find any of the PCO development team that will tout that PCO will surpass CMBB. They are two very different games. Now is where I tell you that if you read my post really well you'll see me point that out more than once.
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And please note I'm not a "hater" or out to support BFC in all that they do. Quite the contrary, I was extremely disappointed in CMSF's initial release which was a total disaster... and now, it STILL has some very serious problems. It seems they have gone totally backwards. The ridiculous QB system, the crappy linear campaign system as opposed to the awesome "Operation" system of old, the COMPLETE LACK of tcp-ip play via wego, the fact that no longer will maps in QB be randomly generated, and, well... it's not WW2 and Javelins take the fun out of everything.
Now I hope they get CM:N right... but they've already said that although there will be tcp-ip wego, it will be WITHOUT replay which is a huge issue for me. Also, still, maps will not be randomly generated for quick battles. They seem to not give a crap what their player base wants and just go headlong in this "realtime 1-1" obsession regardless of the features they sacrifice along the way and regardless of what anyone says. So let's just say I'm not holding my breath.
We're not haters here either. The only reason we compare CMBB to PCO is everybody else wants that comparison. We are in the best position to give it to you. So you'll have to excuse my bias when I give you my opinion about what is similar/different between the two. I probably have the most playing time in CMBB of anyone on the development team and so, probably have the best perspective of how they compare.
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On topic now... about PCO
1) Will PCO feature unit purchasing or some sort of QB system similar to CMBB's?
Yes.
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2) He stated in his thread there will be tcp-ip but was talking about dropbox too so I was kinda confused. Just to be clear... WILL THERE BE TURN BASED WEGO TCP-IP play? (I hate pbem with a passion)
My exact quote is:
*PBEM - TCP/IP. Using Drop Box you can play PCO as a combination of PBEM and TCP/IP without any connections through your ISP or any server. This is quick and easy and the turns can be done either back to back as in TCP/IP or saved for later as in PBEM. This is how I play most often and this is great!
Using Drop Box gives you a combination of either PBEM and TCP/IP. It can be just like either. When I play it live I can send text messages to my opponent. Minimize the screen and when he sends back the turn Drop Box notifies me. All I do then is maximize the game and play the file. Quick and easy. Then if I want to save the files and play them later, as in PBEM, I can do that as well simply by leaving them in Drop Box until I'm ready to play them at a later time.
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3) How exactly does the AI work? In CMBB it was pretty retarded, just rushing at objectives without regard to any kind of flanking or anything. In CMSF it followed preset (multiple if the map maker so chose to add replayability) by the map maker. Of course, this meant that the AI was incapable of having any sort of reaction to the player's moves or capable of "calling an audible"
I'm probably not the one to ask that question. I didn't find the CMBB AI as "dumb as a box of rocks" for scenarios made by designers. Only by QB's. Let's keep the discussion to CMBB since that's what my comparison is about. CMSF is an entirely different genre of game.
The PCO AI will react to your moves. You will have to play the game to determine if it reacts in ways that you like. We each have a different level of comfort when it comes to vs the AI play.
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4) Will PCO be at least up to battalion level size battles? One thing that pissed me off immensely about CMSF was that it was almost always company size battles. I want those epic 5000 point QBs back with 20 tanks on each side and 5-6 companies of infantry!!
PCO can be played in roughly the same size battles as CMBB.
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5) What exactly will make this version of PC be better than the first two, which got panned by reviewers? Have the problems that resulted in those bad reviews been resolved?
Reread my original post and then take a look at the features list of PCO. Those two things will answer this question. If that's not enough there are complete threads here that are for discussion/comparison/AAR's/screen shots...etc. PCO is worlds apart from the first games in the series. Not to mention the fact that if you already own PCK it's FREE!
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I know good AI is possible, because I tried Achtung Panzer: Kharkov and was AMAZED by the AI. Just a quick example. I give an order to a group of SPWs loaded with panzergrenadiers to go to a point out in the snow maybe a 800 meters away. They're about 300 meters from the nearest road, and the direct route through the snow is shorter (so in CMBB they would have taken that route unless I micro managed)... but no, they drive straight to the road, line up in a column formation so they can all fit, drive along the road, and get off it at the closest point to where I'd marked---and all this without ANY vehicles bumping into each other (note that I also had the possibility of turning on a "do not use road" order so that they WOULD have gone straight through the snow if I wanted them to). That's damn good AI. And this was all from a SINGLE order.
Thanks. I'm sure I'll think of more questions and post more later, but that's all for now.
Much love, I really do hope this is a worthy successor (indirect but still...) to CMBB, because I really don't think CM:N will be.
I'm glad that you are interested enough in the update to come and ask questions about it. The game is being beta tested at the moment so we are getting closer to release.
I would agree with you. While this is not a CMBB clone as has been suggested multiple times, I think it has a tremendous amount of depth that those who played CMBB in the past will appreciate.
Good Hunting.
MR
< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 9/11/2010 6:22:25 AM >
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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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