RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO?

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 5:42:08 PM

koiosworks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomm

CMx1 was great in many respects. The problem was that it did not sell any more. Otherwise why would they have thrown the old engine over-board?

CMx2 solved this problem, obviously. Proof being, that BFC is still in business, and expanding.

The principal problem for many was that CMx1 is not being developed further. I hope that this gap will now be closed by PC:O for them.

Best regards,
Thomm

And this is the answer to the question posed in the thread. If no one buys these types of games (because they are so in love with their one and only 'perfect' game) then the fact is these types of games will no longer be made by anyone. Eventually, the old-love game won't even run on new machines.... I simply can't understand why people can't seem to enjoy two 'flavors' of something. I like regular coffee, but sometimes I like an expresso....

(in reply to Thomm)

Post #: 91

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 5:57:54 PM

Ron

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks
I simply can't understand why people can't seem to enjoy two 'flavors' of something. I like regular coffee, but sometimes I like an expresso....

Well if you have been eating beef all along and then someone offers bologna with promises of improved flavour to come... You get the idea.

Somewhat related, I was just reading on a Stardock forum re the botched Elemental release. They had sold more than 82,000 copies in the opening days, not bad I think for the 'been there/done that' TBS genre - they just combined the 'best of' elements and went 3D and you have a 'winner'.

Edit: Just in case I wasn't clear. I don't think PC originally offered enough new or reasons to buy, they look to be changing that now.

< Message edited by Ron -- 9/8/2010 7:01:51 PM >

(in reply to koiosworks)

Post #: 92

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 6:40:15 PM

[hirr]Leto

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks
I simply can't understand why people can't seem to enjoy two 'flavors' of something. I like regular coffee, but sometimes I like an expresso....

Well if you have been eating beef all along and then someone offers bologna with promises of improved flavour to come... You get the idea.

Somewhat related, I was just reading on a Stardock forum re the botched Elemental release. They had sold more than 82,000 copies in the opening days, not bad I think for the 'been there/done that' TBS genre - they just combined the 'best of' elements and went 3D and you have a 'winner'.

I'd restate that by saying that if you've been eating beef all along and then someone offers you salmon, the flavors may be too diverse to overcome for some people, and others may simply not like it. Certainly, if you're subsistence has been beef, and now someone is forcing you to eat salmon, you won't be very happy with them. So you look for beef substitues, maybe some ostrich.

But all the while you wonder why the beef you have been eating couldn't have been upgraded to a prime rib or tenderloin... in the meantime, legions of salmon lovers march across the land saying that salmon is better for you, tastier and is by far the better product. Those that disagree with the salmon lovers are destroyed in an avalanche of salmon zealotry that crushes all opinions and leaves nobody ever to talk about beef again because it is inferior... stunningly, the salmon people also produced and ate beef... but don't talk about it any longer. And for some reason, the first batch of salmon was very fishy smelling and tasted horrible. With some good recipes, they've dressed up the salmon with a lemon dill sauce and have made it edible, but that fishy taste is always at the back of your throat. But the salmon eaters smile and gobble it down.. they actually like that fish taste in their mouths now! Plus everyone eats salmon now, and beef eaters stoned to death... so they really have no choice.

In the meantime, a small band of beef lovers continues to promote beef and the salmon eaters absolutely can't stand the beef eaters. The beef eaters then in turn loathe the salmon eaters for their arrogance, hubris and because, well, they just smell like fish.

I for one also eat tuna, foi gras, pork and even escargot, so I have no problem with a little bit of each... it makes life interesting and TASTY! Yet, for me, the salmon produced still has that fishy taste in the back of my mouth, and because I do not have to smile and say that it tastes great around my friends, I go without. I am hoping that the fishy taste gets expunged, but I have my doubts, because that fishy taste seems to being branded as the new great flavor (and if you don't like it, you just don't get it... perhaps you are not as evolved in the palette as the salmon eaters?)

Only time will tell. And who knows? Maybe I'll like fishy tasting Salmon someday (there will have to be a lot of LEMON involved, though I tells ya!!!)

Cheers!

Leto

< Message edited by [hirr]Leto -- 9/8/2010 6:41:52 PM >

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 93

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 6:51:29 PM

Ron

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto

TL - DR

Lost me? Are you talking about PC or Elemental?

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)

Post #: 94

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 8:01:13 PM

[hirr]Leto

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline

PC and BFC

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 95

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 8:24:25 PM

FNG

Posts: 514
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks
I simply can't understand why people can't seem to enjoy two 'flavors' of something. I like regular coffee, but sometimes I like an expresso....

Well if you have been eating beef all along and then someone offers bologna with promises of improved flavour to come... You get the idea.

Somewhat related, I was just reading on a Stardock forum re the botched Elemental release. They had sold more than 82,000 copies in the opening days, not bad I think for the 'been there/done that' TBS genre - they just combined the 'best of' elements and went 3D and you have a 'winner'.

I'd restate that by saying that if you've been eating beef all along and then someone offers you salmon, the flavors may be too diverse to overcome for some people, and others may simply not like it. Certainly, if you're subsistence has been beef, and now someone is forcing you to eat salmon, you won't be very happy with them. So you look for beef substitues, maybe some ostrich.

But all the while you wonder why the beef you have been eating couldn't have been upgraded to a prime rib or tenderloin... in the meantime, legions of salmon lovers march across the land saying that salmon is better for you, tastier and is by far the better product. Those that disagree with the salmon lovers are destroyed in an avalanche of salmon zealotry that crushes all opinions and leaves nobody ever to talk about beef again because it is inferior... stunningly, the salmon people also produced and ate beef... but don't talk about it any longer. And for some reason, the first batch of salmon was very fishy smelling and tasted horrible. With some good recipes, they've dressed up the salmon with a lemon dill sauce and have made it edible, but that fishy taste is always at the back of your throat. But the salmon eaters smile and gobble it down.. they actually like that fish taste in their mouths now! Plus everyone eats salmon now, and beef eaters stoned to death... so they really have no choice.

In the meantime, a small band of beef lovers continues to promote beef and the salmon eaters absolutely can't stand the beef eaters. The beef eaters then in turn loathe the salmon eaters for their arrogance, hubris and because, well, they just smell like fish.

I for one also eat tuna, foi gras, pork and even escargot, so I have no problem with a little bit of each... it makes life interesting and TASTY! Yet, for me, the salmon produced still has that fishy taste in the back of my mouth, and because I do not have to smile and say that it tastes great around my friends, I go without. I am hoping that the fishy taste gets expunged, but I have my doubts, because that fishy taste seems to being branded as the new great flavor (and if you don't like it, you just don't get it... perhaps you are not as evolved in the palette as the salmon eaters?)

Only time will tell. And who knows? Maybe I'll like fishy tasting Salmon someday (there will have to be a lot of LEMON involved, though I tells ya!!!)

Cheers!

Leto

Two words: 'abstract' and 'genius'.

_____________________________

FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)

Post #: 96

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 9:17:52 PM

Ron

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: [hirr]Leto

PC and BFC

I guess I am dense then lol because I am really lost now. I don't think for a moment PC Kharkov was a 'salmon', in fact as I alluded to it was severely lacking in certain areas compared to CMBB, a game BFC released eight years ago, hence the lack of incentive to buy and support. AFAIK BFC has no plans to return to the Eastern Front any time soon so am unsure your point re PC. PC Ostfront looks to address a lot of the issues people found lacking in Kharkov and hopefully will become an alternative 'expresso' as Koiosworks originally stated.

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)

Post #: 97

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 9:31:56 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
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I think he means that CMSF is salmon...

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 98

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 9:36:45 PM

[hirr]Leto

Posts: 17
Joined: 8/25/2010
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Ostrich = Ostfront.

Salmon = CM2 engine (CMSF)

Beef = CMx1

Tenderloin = : (

Escargot = Snails. mmmm.

Cheers!

Leto

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 99

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 9:39:21 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
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mmm beerr = Homer Simpson

(in reply to [hirr]Leto)

Post #: 100

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/8/2010 11:55:08 PM

Tophat1815

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

mmm beerr = Homer Simpson

mmmmmmm BEER

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 101

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 12:23:28 AM

Ron

Posts: 506
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Status: offline

Combat Mission ShockForce? That's priceless. Coming out of the woodwork venting angst over BFC and their two year+ old game!? I guess that's why they were called CM Fanatics from the Church of CM, still spreading the 'word', or in this case someone who just can't help himself no matter where he is.

(in reply to Tophat1815)

Post #: 102

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 12:47:24 AM

junk2drive

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Ron I think you are still confused. It's ok though. Canadian humour isn't for everyone.

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Post #: 103

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 1:38:08 AM

Mobius

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From: California
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I thought it tastes like chicken.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 104

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 3:36:07 AM

Tophat1815

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I thought it tastes like chicken.

Canadian humor or rattlesnake?

Combat Mission ShockForce? That's priceless. Coming out of the woodwork venting angst over BFC and their two year+ old game!? I guess that's why they were called CM Fanatics from the Church of CM, still spreading the 'word', or in this case someone who just can't help himself no matter where he is.

After this post I am kinda lost.But I'm a gamer and made my morale check so here we go.We come out of the woodwork and rain accolades down on an 8+ year old game(CM:BB)so why would you think people wouldn't vent over what many consider a betrayal of a great game system?

Now back to the title of the thread why should you buy PCO when you have CM:BB here is my tentative list not having the game:

1) Mapmaker looks wonderful and might be a great game experience by itself.I can actually say that since i spend way too much time in the map creation part of CM:BB.Instead of just trying to make terrain and locations look realistic you can actually make realistic maps!

2) Railroads! Look at the previous screen shots in this thread begging for your infantry and armor to run amok.

3) Aircraft!! Seeing aircraft in the game and not a nebulous shadow is just plain cool.

4) Artillery! Its more versatile than in CM both in ammo consumption and targeting.

5) Will run without trouble on modern computer systems. I have not had a lot of trouble with CM on modern Win 7 machines,I did have a good deal of trouble with vista.

6) Continued support for the Game!! This reminds me of what they did with WiTp-AE,a major quality rework of a game.That effort alone deserves our support.

This is a short tentative list that I am certain will have much added to it.But if you are a WWII tactical wargame Fan that enjoyed CM:BB you'll want to give this one a try.

< Message edited by Tophat1812 -- 9/9/2010 3:54:06 AM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 105

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 5:05:38 AM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
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All of this sounds great for gamers. Personally I still love and play CM:BB. I'm sure I'll play the hell out of this game too. But I do have one request. Please don't release it until it is absolutely ready. Minor bugs in a release are understandable. What game doesn't come with some bugs nowadays? Forgive me for saying this as I own a lot of Matrix titles. My experience with Matrix games is that they are works in progress, always patching and never completely finished. Just once I'd love to get a Matrix title that after one or two bug zapping patches actually felt like a complete game and not a work in progress. Make it this game. Please.

(in reply to Tophat1815)

Post #: 106

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 6:07:30 PM

Cafe

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Joined: 9/9/2010
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CMx1 was good in it's day, but as has been pointed out it has ceased to progress as a gaming system - its longevity extended greatly by the ability of talented 3rd party modders and scenario developers. CM2 has been interesting to watch develop from a painful birth, and while I don't overly care for the subject matter, the development of the engine has taken some interesting turns and I have enjoyed playing it and it's expansions.

PCO came to my attention only recently - thanks to the Mad Russian's post on a CMx1 scenario site I occasionally visit. I am delighted by the prospects this engine offers the tactical wargamer and it will be an interesting addition to my gaming collection.

My point in these remarks is that I have purchased and played all of these games (well, still waiting on PCO release!). Echoing the thoughts of koiosworks above; it is silly to be exclusively an evangelist for this or that game, leave that to the respective marketing departments. Constructive feedback can be useful, but my game is better than your game comparisons are not.

We all belong to a small market niche that is being serviced by some dedicated developers and associated publishers who are looking to us for support in their business decisions to provide this market (us!) with wargaming goodness. So do take a look at the bigger picture, you can shoot yourself in the foot by being too strident and as has been mentioned, with the size of today's hard drives, another couple of gigs is easily found.

Cafe

< Message edited by Cafe -- 9/9/2010 6:14:27 PM >

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 107

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/9/2010 9:05:22 PM

Geordie

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I simply see PCO as a successor to CMBB, adding stuff that enhances the genre. I don't really se it as a competitor for any BF title, which I will also get.

Sometimes you can start with Salmon and then have Beef as your main course, then you can have a pudding, perhaps an FPS one.

Games are designed to be played and I don't think there can be enough of them, the more the merrier and a wee bit competition is good.

_____________________________

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Post #: 108

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/10/2010 2:22:48 AM

Zemke

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I don't play more than one "type" of game. For example, I may buy two of a type, but only one will be played, and that will be the one that is the best to me. I don't have the time to learn and get good at two, particularly if one is not as good as the other. One may look better than the other, but I want realistic results, not looks. Finally if I find one game superior in most ways, it could have a poor infantry model or unrealistic artillery model, then those are show stoppers right then and there. Bottom line, I will play the best of the two, or three or whatever "type" offered, even though I may buy all of them. Then I tell my friends and post and say, hey this is the one you want to get because it has the right "feel", not X, unless you really like Y. (Notice I never said, "because it looks better.")

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Post #: 109

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 5:31:42 PM

Koen

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since I'm completely new to this game here are the things I miss (or can't find):

***The cameraposition and the ability to look in all directions on 360� in CM, in PCO I get stuck with a camera angle. When I want to go 'low' I can see 20m in front of the unit and that's it.

***The ability in CM to draw a square and see all your units lighten up

these are the first things I come up with...

ps; hey Geordie

< Message edited by Koen -- 9/11/2010 5:32:38 PM >

(in reply to Zemke)

Post #: 110

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 5:35:49 PM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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Camera angles are done with the click of the center mouse wheel. Push it down and move your mouse in any direction you want. High/low/left/right when you get the angle you want, let go, you're there.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 111

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 5:44:27 PM

junk2drive

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From: Arizona West Coast
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Edit because I confused myself.

For new orders, click the CO unit and all the squads will follow, for repeat orders, press the shift key to force orders.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 9/11/2010 6:09:25 PM >

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Post #: 112

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 5:46:17 PM

Koen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Camera angles are done with the click of the center mouse wheel. Push it down and move your mouse in any direction you want. High/low/left/right when you get the angle you want, let go, you're there.

Good Hunting.

MR

doesn't seem to work here, all I can do is forward, left and right.
can't seem to turn the camera on it's axis

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 113

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 5:54:38 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
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The biggest problem CM'ers have with PC is the camera control.

If you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, press down on the wheel and see if it "clicks"
If it does, that is your middle mouse button.
Press and hold down the wheel then move your mouse around. You should see the camera angle move and rotate.

You can also not touch the mouse wheel, or if you don't have one, press and hold the Alt key while moving the mouse.

I like to rest my hand on the keyboard with my thumb on the spacebar, ready to pause the replay and my finger on the Alt key, ready to look around while paused.

The scroll wheel moves your zoom level in and out.

There are also hotkeys for level 1 2 3 and 4 gives you overhead and matching the minimap cone.

~ or Home takes you back to the starting viewpoint.

(in reply to Koen)

Post #: 114

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 9/11/2010 9:33:00 PM

Geordie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Koen

ps; hey Geordie

Hi mate, good to see you still kicking around.

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Post #: 115

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 10/15/2010 1:14:52 PM

Mad Russian

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I was told that I should load up CMBB on my new Windows 7 machine. That it will work. It does for the most part. There are some small issues but it's there.

The reason I brought this up is one of the main complaints we hear when gamers play PC for the first time is the camera controls.

I'd forgotten just how different they are. I've not played CMBB since last November. Been too busy with PCO plus I couldn't get it to display correctly. Tanker may have solved that problem for me. Either way, now after going back to it after all these months the big thing that stands out is the camera. It's the first thing to see different and it's by far the most frustrating.

So, when you come to PCO for the first time understand that camera can be controlled in three ways.

First - hold down the middle mouse wheel and you can spin in place. You can do anything with the camera angle from that point on the map. Turn any direction or go to any elevation.

Second - move your mouse or the direction keys, to move in a desired direction.

Third - you can simply click on the small Tac map and it takes you to the spot you clicked on. That can be a very quick way around a big map.

After a couple of scenarios the system becomes second nature.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/15/2010 2:34:39 PM >

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 10/15/2010 2:28:02 PM

eniced73

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quote:

The reason I brought this up is one of the main complaints we hear when gamers play PC for the first time. The camera controls.

I have been playing all the CM games since they came out and second MR's comments about the camera control. I had a totally opposite view of PC when I first played a scenario. I was very pleased with the camera controls finding them very easy to use. I had no problems whatsoever. The only wish I have is that you can 'tab' to the bino view of an enemy unit. So as far as 'old' CM'ers not liking the camera controls is BS on their part. They have no gripe on the controls being 'worse' or 'harder' to use than PC. In my opinion.

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 10/15/2010 4:38:16 PM

HintJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

First - hold down the middle mouse wheel and you can spin in place. You can do anything with the camera angle from that point on the map. Turn any direction or go to any elevation.

This is not correct. Try looking upwards in PC! The camera is restricted to a focus point on the ground. In PC, your camera is allways focusing at the same point. Of course you can use the arrow keys to move the focus point.

You could look upwards (Shift-A) in CM. The doesn't mean either camera is better, but they are different styles, and once adjusted, present no real issues in most cases for the player.

But overall, CM's camera is a more free camera.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 118

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 10/15/2010 4:48:10 PM

junk2drive

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I think you don't understand how to use the mouse and scroll wheel in PC.

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 119

RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO? - 10/15/2010 5:37:17 PM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

First - hold down the middle mouse wheel and you can spin in place. You can do anything with the camera angle from that point on the map. Turn any direction or go to any elevation.

This is not correct. Try looking upwards in PC! The camera is restricted to a focus point on the ground. In PC, your camera is allways focusing at the same point. Of course you can use the arrow keys to move the focus point.

You could look upwards (Shift-A) in CM. The doesn't mean either camera is better, but they are different styles, and once adjusted, present no real issues in most cases for the player.

But overall, CM's camera is a more free camera.

in the options there is a mouse control toggle, you might try that and see if you can control your mouse as you would like.

Rick

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 120

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RE: If I Own CMBB why get PCO?