RE: War in the East Q&A

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/21/2010 12:21:46 AM

Joel Billings

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FYI, as captured equipment they will breakdown more often and not get repaired as often as regular equipment.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/21/2010 10:20:25 AM

ComradeP

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Hard Sarge, based on your comments regarding the supply state of the unit using the Panthers, would it be correct to assume that the Panthers count as medium tanks TOE wise, so when units don't get Soviet medium tanks, they'll pick Panthers (or another German medium tank)?

You note that AA and artillery will get the most use, but the majority of the artillery in the capture screen is not being used by a Soviet unit.

Can captured equipment only be used by on-map units, or also by HQ/divisional/Corps attachments?

And a final question: does captured equipment always have to be used by standard units or will units specifically using captured equipment be formed, possibly only HQ attachment battalions?

As an aside, in a few weeks I think I'll create a summary thread with just the questions and answers to what has been questioned and answered, as a 35+ page Q&A thread might scare some people off.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 8/21/2010 10:23:00 AM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 1022

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/21/2010 5:09:35 PM

mussey

Posts: 683
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's going to be years before we see anything like a War in Europe from this game engine. I would think they'd have to produce a western front game separately first. And then do a complete overhaul of diplomatic and economic engines before putting the two together in one game, since neither of these really exist at present.

Simulating freeish production at this game scale is going to be a huge design challenge. The historical orders of battle impose a certain design discipline on the game but become increasingly implausible as you expand the scope of the game to cover the entire theater and strategic options multiply.

I don't particularly think that War in Europe succeeded in meeting that challenge, btw. My own view is that divisional level games don't work well here for this sort of thing, and you have to kick it up a notch or two (to corps level and up) to really get something that flows smoothly and is playable. That is, move it up to the World in Flames/A3rd Reich level. There's a sort of Heisenberg uncertainty principle at work here, the more micro the game is, the harder it is to model the macro issues.

That's why I always thought/dreamed that the old WIR combined with PacWar would make a great engine for a new War in Europe. Good map scale (WIR); corp sized shells to put divisions into; PacWar for the naval engine. It would need a 'prettier' map. I once took it upon me to make a new map w/the map editor to create western Europe/France and Battle of Order for a 1940 scenerio but failed miserably. It was a fun exersize nontheless!

I'm very anxious for WIE and will have much enjoyment, but greedily dream for the definitive War in Europe; operational level; 20 to 25 km/hex; div/corp level with great naval & air.

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The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

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Post #: 1023

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/21/2010 5:25:51 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Hard Sarge, based on your comments regarding the supply state of the unit using the Panthers, would it be correct to assume that the Panthers count as medium tanks TOE wise, so when units don't get Soviet medium tanks, they'll pick Panthers (or another German medium tank)?

I "think" the unit in question was out of the main supply line of the SU system, and so, needed tanks and grabbed tanks it could find in the area, a number of Panzer Div's were trapped and taken out close to where it was, now, if that is "really" how it works or not, I do not really know, just how it feels

You note that AA and artillery will get the most use, but the majority of the artillery in the capture screen is not being used by a Soviet unit.

I would disagree, there is what 320+ units using some of the anti-air weapons, for the Arty, the SU used a different size shell, then did most of the western nations, so yes, while the Ge did use a lot of there guns, they also redid the breech systems, to be able to handle Ge ammo, but not everything will be used, or will need to be used, if you have lots of your own weapons, no needed to use somebodies else with issues acted to them

Can captured equipment only be used by on-map units, or also by HQ/divisional/Corps attachments?

And a final question: does captured equipment always have to be used by standard units or will units specifically using captured equipment be formed, possibly only HQ attachment battalions?

As an aside, in a few weeks I think I'll create a summary thread with just the questions and answers to what has been questioned and answered, as a 35+ page Q&A thread might scare some people off.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/23/2010 8:05:04 AM

lbadal99

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Hard Sarge, many thanks for the details on captured weapons - looks very well detailed in the game - I have a couple of questions on screenshots you provided:

The first screen shot showed all the various captured equipment - what do the columns indicate? Pool, Captured, Units.

I assume Pool is the number of pieces of captured equipment that can be used (i.e. "runners") - Captured I assume means total number of captured pieces (working / non-working) and Units mneans pieces of that equipment out to specific units.

Also what about trucks? Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?

Thanks

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Post #: 1025

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/24/2010 2:22:07 AM

lbadal99

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Hard Sarge another question in regards to airfield/air unit overrun - as either side moves on the offense and over runs air fields/air units what happens at the airfield sites - are planes able to take off and relocate and only the ground /support units destroyed/captured/scattered or do a % of planes get destroyed and captured?

Real world example would be the Stalingrad airlift where the Russians actually overran the main air base at Tatsinskaya Airbase (where a number of Ju-52 transport planes were stationed for the airlift) by the Russian 24th Tank Corps. The Russian Corps destroyed approximately 300 aircraft before being wiped out themselves , but a number of transports still got out and redeployed to other airfields farther west.

Is something like this modelled in the game when air units are overrun?

Thanks len

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Post #: 1026

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/24/2010 1:02:57 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lbadal99

Also what about trucks?� Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?

No, captured equipment refers only to weapons.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/24/2010 1:05:34 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lbadal99

Hard Sarge another question in regards to airfield/air unit overrun - as either side moves on the offense and over runs air fields/air units what happens at the airfield sites - are planes able to take off and relocate and only the ground /support units destroyed/captured/scattered or do a % of planes get destroyed and captured?�

Real world example would be the Stalingrad airlift where the Russians actually overran the main air base at Tatsinskaya Airbase�(where a number of Ju-52 transport planes were stationed for the airlift) by the Russian 24th Tank Corps.� The Russian Corps�destroyed approximately 300 aircraft before being wiped out themselves , but a number of transports still got out and redeployed to other airfields farther west.

Is something like this modelled in the game when air units are overrun?

When an air base is displaced "overrun", all damaged planes are destroyed and the air base's ground elements suffer normal retreat attrition. Ready and reserve planes are assumed to have flown off and landed at the location the air base displaced to.

(in reply to lbadal99)

Post #: 1028

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/24/2010 7:01:54 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: lbadal99

Also what about trucks?� Can you capture trucks and reuse them in your own transport pool?

No, captured equipment refers only to weapons.

I read somewhere that LAH capture and bunch of GMC trucks during the conquest of France. They loved them for there durability and the interchangability of parts. Of course with no spares that fleet of trucks slow disappeared over time. No doubt scattered about the Russian steppes. LAH GMC's largest parts distributor!! LOL! Can't remember how many but they were trucks order by the French for the French Army and captured by LAH.

Oh yeah, that would be kind of hard to model in a game of this proportions. Interesting tid-bit.

< Message edited by Capt Cliff -- 8/24/2010 7:08:17 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 3:25:00 AM

notenome

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The capture of trucks and most importantly supplies is something of an issue. Don't get me wrong, I already love everything thats in and honestly want the damn game to be released already, but the germans captured a treasure trove of supplies during Barbarossa. Whilst munitions are of limited use, the fuel was extremely important, as were the rations. And latter on every coat they could get there hands on was a luxury (but thats negligible at the this scale). I do think that trucks and fuel should be capturable, easy to model to, imho, simply have every HQ carry a certain amount, when they get captured, some supplies change hands. Lastly, and this is probably asking for too much, but Russian trains were also to become very important, for obvious reasons. But with the rail repair thats probably adequately abstracted.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 4:14:30 AM

lbadal99

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Good point on Russian Trains - At Stalingrad 16th Panzer overan a goods train that was chalked full of Willy's jeeps and Studebaker Trucks - once they were relieved from their dash to Stalingrad - they happily took over the equipment.

Len

(in reply to notenome)

Post #: 1031

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 10:07:59 AM

karonagames

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I did not wish to contradict Jaw, but when I was trying to track down a discrepancy in the Axis truck pool in one of my test games, Joel did say that trucks are captured. The rules for what ratio are captured, sent to the truck pool and/or the repair pool have not been laid out in the manual, which is probably why Jaw thought that they were not captured. Trucks are also shown on a separate part of the TOE and don't get shown as "captured" equipment within the main TOE display.

Likewise fuel and supplies are captured when HQs are overrun, but substantial amounts are "damaged" to represent the fact that some of the fuel captured was diesel, and/or of a quality that the Germans couldn't use.

It looks like the manual has been updated recently - here are the current rules ( Subject to change etc.)

15.13 Captured Equipment
AFV, combat vehicles and guns (devices that are named gun, usually individual ground weapons of 20mm size or greater) from other types of ground elements (e.g. artillery) can be captured as a result of a unit being forced to retreat or conduct a displacement move. Units that shatter or surrender have a greater chance of having equipment captured along with the manpower in the ground element. Captured equipment is placed in the �captured� production pool and may be used to equip applicable ground elements when a sufficient quantity has been captured. In some cases during retreats and attacks that fail to force the defender to retreat, equipment may be considered abandoned without the manpower associated with the equipment being disabled. In those cases, the manpower is returned to the pool while the equipment is either captured or destroyed.
Captured equipment will not be used by any country until October 1941.

15.14 Captured Supplies and Fuel
The retreat or displacement move of any unit may result in the capture of supplies and/or fuel. The captured material will be added as damaged supply or fuel depots to the HQ unit to which the combat unit that caused the retreat or displacement move is attached. A text message will display in the map area whenever enemy material is captured.

So it does look like trucks are outside the definition of combat vehicles, so this will need to be clarified.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 8/25/2010 10:21:48 AM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 12:49:27 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

15.13 Captured Equipment
AFV, combat vehicles and guns (devices that are named gun, usually individual ground weapons of 20mm size or greater) from other types of ground elements (e.g. artillery) can be captured as a result of a unit being forced to retreat or conduct a displacement move. Units that shatter or surrender have a greater chance of having equipment captured along with the manpower in the ground element. Captured equipment is placed in the �captured� production pool and may be used to equip applicable ground elements when a sufficient quantity has been captured. In some cases during retreats and attacks that fail to force the defender to retreat, equipment may be considered abandoned without the manpower associated with the equipment being disabled. In those cases, the manpower is returned to the pool while the equipment is either captured or destroyed.
Captured equipment will not be used by any country until October 1941.

So it does look like trucks are outside the definition of combat vehicles, so this will need to be clarified.

Yes, I was basing my answer on the above statement in the rules which specifically mentions AFVs and combat vehicles, which I'm assuming to be armed halftracks and trucks (e.g. GAZ-AAMG), but not unarmed trucks. I did a search of the latest rules manual looking for the phrase "captured trucks" and could find no references. I would never be one to suggest that Joel is wrong but I think I'll e-mail Gary for a definitive answer.

(in reply to karonagames)

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 5:02:00 PM

Joel Billings

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I'm often wrong.

IIRC, I thought we had something in the game that was capturing generic vehicles, however, IIRC the last time I checked with Gary he told me that he thought he had something that was capturing vehicles but couldn't find it in the code and we left it at that. My memory on this could also be wrong, so Jim should contact Gary about this. Ideally we'd have something in the game that allows some number of vehicles to be captured. While captured AFVs can specifically be given a much worse reliability rating to simulate the lack of spare parts, etc., generic vehicles are just that, generic. So to account for that we'd have to have less trucks captured as once in a player's motor pool they would be treated as if they were any vehicle. By the way, the Germans have a slower repair rate for their vehicles as they were notorious for having vehicles from many different sources, and thus a much harder time keeping them all running.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 6:44:14 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

...By the way, the Germans have a slower repair rate for their vehicles as they were notorious for having vehicles from many different sources, and thus a much harder time keeping them all running.

I'm assuming you are referring only to non-AFVs as the Germans were legendary for how fast they could repair damaged AFVs. If Gary has this working the way I think it should be, German AFVs should be more likely to breakdown than their Soviet counterparts (based on the reliability ratings given them in the data base) but the Germans should be more efficient at repairing their AFVs than the Soviets.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/25/2010 8:32:20 PM

Joel Billings

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I'm only talking about generic vehicle repair rates. By the way, we do plan on adding captured generic vehicles as I confirmed that we thought we had it but figured out we don't, so it's on the list to get into the game.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/2/2010 10:04:52 PM

randallw

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Doesn't captured fighting equipment also have a lower amount of ammo available for it, since the capturing country may not be producting ammo stocks of the exact size shells? Is this adjustment made in the game?

Do computer controlled units move by the usual inside-game waypoint system? Capture location A, then B, then C, etc.

Will there be times when the computer is moving the subunits of a larger formation, with the larger units dead, into doom? For example an Army size unit moving some arty regiment forward with no division to support......or will the subunits always be held at the HQ, so they really won't be running around on their lonesome?

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/2/2010 11:21:44 PM

Joel Billings

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Support type units (battalions, some regiments) are always attached to either a HQ or to a German division or Soviet Corps. They do not move on their own.

The support units are only involved in battles if their is an on-map unit in a battle.

No, I don't think we account for ammo of captured items, but they due tend to breakdown more quickly when they're being used.

We have added captured generic vehicles to the game.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/3/2010 12:41:10 PM

jaw

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I would also add that at a game of this scale anything that takes you out of combat whether it be an ordinary mechanical breakdown, running low on ammo or throwing a track because the driver is unfamiliar with the vehicle counts as a breakdown. All of these factors contribute to the much higher breakdown probability that captured equipment has.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/9/2010 4:12:53 PM

wmcalpine

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Question for Jon,

In your latest AAR versus the Soviet AI, what game options and difficulty level are you using?

Bill

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/9/2010 8:53:02 PM

Neal_MLC

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Will we be seeing any AARs against the German AI?

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/9/2010 10:34:39 PM

karonagames

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I'm doing a test at the moment that may be allowed to see the light of day - but only if I win!

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/13/2010 8:28:59 PM

Schmart

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Been out of the wargaming loop for a few years now, and have recently re-discovered WiR, and now find out about this project. Keep it up guys, you've got yourself another customer for WitE!

I've been plodding through some of the threads, AARs, etc, but it's been a lot to read, so forgive me if my questions have already been asked.

1. Is there any provision to be able to rename units and HQs in-game?
2. Are historical HQs (Corps/Army/AG/Front) included as reinforcements?
3. Are HQs renamed along historical paths? (It was always annoying in WiR to end up with original 1941 Soviet Front HQ names in 1943-45!)
4. I understand that only the Soviets can create new units. What about a provision for the Axis to create a small number of (historical) ad-hoc corps or army HQs?
5. While Divisions can be moved between Corps HQs, can HQs themselves be moved around to other higher HQs (moving a PzKorps HQ from one army to another, for instance)?
6. I understand that a unit's TOE rate can be set (50-100%). If a unit is at 80% and I set it to 60%, will the unit dump the excess into the replacement pool (fleshing out units to direct replacements to other areas of the front)?
7. I'm a bit confused on entrenchment/fortifications. Can one (for example) build some kind of fortified line to fall back on?
8. What is the 'FAT' column I see in many unit status screenshots?

Really looking forward to seeing this title out there. Perhaps christmas will come a little early this year?

(in reply to karonagames)

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/13/2010 8:37:33 PM

Schmart

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Oops, missed a couple...

9. German independent Bns are attached to HQs or Divisions as sub-units), but I see some screenshots showing Soviet Bdes (really Bn equivalents) as on map units. Surely the Soviet player has enough to manage than to deal with all these independent Bdes on the map?
10. Does the game model the later recreation of Soviet Rifle Corps (essentially western Division equivalents)? It would sure help to reduce map clutter and help the Soviet player manage his massive horde of troops.
11. I see Commanders with Naval ratings. What purpose does this serve in the game?

< Message edited by Schmart -- 9/13/2010 8:39:14 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/13/2010 10:40:19 PM

Montbrun

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1. Nope
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No provision for Axis unit creation
5. Yes
6. Nope
7. Yes - Fortified Zones are immobile are "units" created "on the board."
8. Fatigue
9. There are Soviet Brigades - they were an intregal part of the early-war army, and yes, there's a boatload of them.
10. Yes
11. Dunno...

Brad

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/13/2010 10:58:48 PM

ComradeP

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Some extended answers:

1) and 3) Some units and HQ's are renamed automatically, Soviet air units are renamed automatically when they grow in size for example. Soviet Front HQ's are also automatically renamed at certain points in the game.

2) The Germans use a historical arrival/withdrawal schedule, one that can't be influenced regardless of what is happening on the map. The Soviets get historical reinforcements in 1941, but the vast majority of the "reinforcements" you want after 1941 are units you'll have to create yourself.

4) You can shuffle units around between HQ's, split up divisions and attach independent battalions. Essentially, you can create your own KG's that way.

5) I believe every unit can be moved to another HQ, but there's an administrative point cost associated with most of the moves so you do have to be careful about moving units as constantly moving units around can be quite costly in terms of administrative points.

6) Units won't return squads or equipment to the pool when set to a lower than current TOE level, but can gradually decrease in size due to attrition. I'm not sure whether non-frontline units also decrease in size over time somehow as the attrition rule only affects units next to enemy hexes I believe.

7) As Brad said, you can create fortified zones/regions, which are actual units. They're basically guys that dig for you. Don't expect them to form a Maginot line by themselves. Fortification levels don't require a fortified zone/region unit, those levels increase over time when units spend some time in a hex or construction battalions/the population of cities ( when the enemy is near) get to work. You can't directly influence which hex will get the most attention, but if you place a good stack of units somewhere that's attached to a HQ that has construction battalions as support units, the digging process will take place at a good speed. Keep in mind that there's a limit to the fortification level when there are no enemies around (that keeps you from fortifying half the map).

8) Fatique, primarily gained from combat. If your units spend every turn in combat, their fatique levels will skyrocket. Give your men the chance for some R&R from time to time and they'll be fine.

9) Brigades are on map units, which can in most cases be turned into divisions (1941>) or corps (1942>).

10) Corps consolidation starts in 1942, except for Cavalry Corps consolidation which starts in December 1941. Rifle and Cavalry Corps are, in terms of TOE, basically 3 divisions glued together. Mechanized and Tank Corps have special TOE's that make them have more value than the some of their parts. The TOE's grow in size over time (1942 Tank Corps are not scary, 1944 Tank Corps are).

11) At the moment, it seems it's mostly there so people can ask why it's there.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 9/13/2010 10:59:21 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/13/2010 11:27:03 PM

Joel Billings

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The only impact of the naval rating is on amphibious landings, which are only allowed by Soviets in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

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(in reply to ComradeP)

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/14/2010 6:56:17 PM

Capt Cliff

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So there are or there are not Kamfgruppes? A combat unit, not an HQ unit, made up of adhoc units (battalions), which the German was famous for creating and using quite effectivily. A button the German player has to "Create Kamfgruppe" ... add a bit of this and a bit of that ... and walah ... an combat unit.??!!

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/14/2010 7:13:27 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

So there are or there are not Kamfgruppes? A combat unit, not an HQ unit,�made up of adhoc units (battalions), which the German was famous for creating and using quite effectivily. A button the German player has to "Create Kamfgruppe" ... add a bit of this and a bit of that ... and walah ... an combat unit.??!!

No, there are no kampfgruppen per se and for good reason: at a scale of 1 week per turn, ten miles to the hex the feature would get abused to death. You can breakdown a division into 3 equal parts to simulate kampfgruppen but you can't create "original" ones.

(in reply to Capt Cliff)

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 9/15/2010 6:37:42 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

So there are or there are not Kamfgruppes? A combat unit, not an HQ unit,�made up of adhoc units (battalions), which the German was famous for creating and using quite effectivily. A button the German player has to "Create Kamfgruppe" ... add a bit of this and a bit of that ... and walah ... an combat unit.??!!

No, there are no kampfgruppen per se and for good reason: at a scale of 1 week per turn, ten miles to the hex the feature would get abused to death. You can breakdown a division into 3 equal parts to simulate kampfgruppen but you can't create "original" ones.

Bummer!

But I can see why and your right it could prove too gamey, since the German's did it out of necesscity rather than planning. Still an option to have them would be ok for PvP games.

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