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UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:07:49 PM

WriterJWA

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I really like the look of WitP: AE, I've checked it out... looks like what could be considered to be one of the most complicated, detailed wargame ever made. Bravo!

I really want to fight in the Pacific. However, I don't want to manage the details as they're represented in AE and would like to see more delegation in terms of chain of command ... for military accuracy purposes. Nimitz or MacArthur did not dictate flight altitudes for specific squadrons, for example, their air officers did that through through their respective chains of command. But I would also like to have the ability to control at that level at critical moments, but not throughout the game. With UV, it's very easy to handle this detail per unit, however with something as large as AE it seems to take some of the fun out the planning (IMHO).

I've read that the older WitP is a little lighter in terms of detail, and certain theaters can be set to computer control (such as China, which I have no real desire to micromanage). I understand that the chain of command/OOB system is basically the same, so no help there ... but if the other details were just a little easier to swallow, then I would feel good about playing it, I think. Again, I love AE, but I find myself getting board with the constant need to make adjustments that a commander at a grand operational level wouldn't necessarily have to make on a routine basis. At the same time, I would like the detail related to supply, reinforcements, replacements, etc., so I don't know of another game besides the WitP franchise that makes it.

Is WitP (standard) a way to go here?

Thanks,
Jay

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Post #: 1

RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:14:55 PM

KenchiSulla

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Hmmm, no... I dont think you should leave AE for WitP.

To me it seems like you want the level of detail in the AE, but you want the option to delegate parts of it to AI... Sounds like HOI 3 is more your thing?

Perhaps WitP the Grand Admirals Edition will be more your CoT?

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:20:04 PM

anarchyintheuk

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AE has every info/command screen that WitP does. AE just added one or two (or several) gizmos per page. It may be less micromanaging per page, but you're still going to have to cycle through the same pages to effect the commands that you want. I don't see it as much less in micromanagement than AE.

Computer controlled areas in WitP are more honored in their theory than their practice. Imo they just don't work. The only one that I think you safely set to computer control is China. By 'safely' I mean don't ever look there again.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:25:43 PM

WriterJWA

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China is really the one I'd like to see AI handled. Otherwise, I'm fine. Basically, what I'm looking for is AE with the volume down.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:48:52 PM

Shark7

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All I can say is this: If you don't mind a lot of micromanagement, then AE will be fine for you. If you don't like micromanagement, you may want to go with vanilla.

Lots of clicky clicky with AE.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 6:56:29 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Still don't think WitP will save much on the micromanagement. You won't have to worry about assigning a bombardment distance for your bbtf. for example . . . . but the first time one gets smoked by some 5" cd units you'll be thinking "I wish I could set the bomardment range on my bbtfs".

In other words, the vast majority of changes in AE (and those that add to its extra micromanagment) were made as a direct result of issues found in WitP that were considered anywhere from game stoppers to annoyances by the players.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 9/15/2010 6:58:46 PM >

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 7:21:55 PM

Rob Brennan UK

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What anarchy said + I suspect your after a game vs the AI too ? In that case then AE is miles better than WitP, with a much higher level of challenge that makes the game replayable due to the multiple scripts etc.

Hearts of Iron 3 ? utter baloney imo , when i saw Soviet Russia surrender to Roumania I just gave up !.

The details are what makes this game so good in an odd way. and if your playing the AI then just leave the altitudes etc alone unless you really want to play with it. same with waypoints , use or not , your choice. There is some inherant complexity over WitP (mainly on port sizes/offloading etc.) but you'll have a manual to help and it slowly seeps into the grey matter over time.

Whatever you decide i wish you well.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 7:23:49 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Hearts of Iron 3 ? utter baloney imo , when i saw Soviet Russia surrender to Roumania I just gave up !.

Is it realy that bad ? I played HOI2 for awile but for some reason I stayed away from the 3rd one.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 7:27:25 PM

Rob Brennan UK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Hearts of Iron 3 ? utter baloney imo , when i saw Soviet Russia surrender to Roumania I just gave up !.

Is it realy that bad ? I played HOI2 for awile but for some reason I stayed away from the 3rd one.

Yup , and as Germany having conquered most of the USSR i was somewhat peeved. and the Naval combat is as bad as ever , one blink and your entire navy is wiped out. I would not reccomend this game to anyone.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 7:46:12 PM

WriterJWA

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Yeah .... HOI is a little questionable. I've not played HOI3, but I have HOI2 and it's a little bizarre sometimes. The naval and air aspects leave a little to be desired.

Another concern I have is the zoom issue. If I could zoom out in AE to a higher level (or two), then that would be a BIG help. Or is there a way to change the map resolution so more of the map is presented on the screen at one time. One of the reasons I'm having some interest in the old WitP is that the scale is a little smaller, and thus would allow me to have more on the screen. (I'll sacrifice SOME accuracy for gameplay).

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 9:22:54 PM

JWE

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The people on this forum are often immersed in the details of this and that. They are impelled to think in terms of specificty and clicky, clicky.

The game can be played quite well without any clickey clickey, whatsoever. Over 90% of the thousands of people who play this game do just fine without any clickey clickey, or after market analysis software analysis tools, or whatever.

The game is like an onion. You can play it straight up and have a good deal of fun. Once you get used to it, you can get deeper and deeper. But if you are a noob to the game, don't listen to people who are deep in the gravity well. They will only say things based on their own proclivities, which are NOT rationally related to the game design.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 9:48:16 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Hmmm, no... I dont think you should leave AE for WitP.

To me it seems like you want the level of detail in the AE, but you want the option to delegate parts of it to AI... Sounds like HOI 3 is more your thing?

Perhaps WitP the Grand Admirals Edition will be more your CoT?

GRAND Admiral's edition??

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 9:53:09 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

The people on this forum are often immersed in the details of this and that. They are impelled to think in terms of specificty and clicky, clicky.

The game can be played quite well without any clickey clickey, whatsoever. Over 90% of the thousands of people who play this game do just fine without any clickey clickey, or after market analysis software analysis tools, or whatever.

The game is like an onion. You can play it straight up and have a good deal of fun. Once you get used to it, you can get deeper and deeper. But if you are a noob to the game, don't listen to people who are deep in the gravity well. They will only say things based on their own proclivities, which are NOT rationally related to the game design.

Good points! I have noticed the proclivity of many to focus on the minor details of the engines itself and less on the strategy decision-making. To each their own. Personally, I guess I've been on a quest to find a game that lets me sit as realistically as possible in the chair held by historical field commanders. UV has done that! And from what I've seen of WitP (AE or otherwise) it looks to do much the same. The AGEod ACW game is great for that, too. I just want to know that I'm going to spend more time planning, less time clicking before I spend $60-90 on a game.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 10:01:48 PM

Smeulders

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

The people on this forum are often immersed in the details of this and that. They are impelled to think in terms of specificty and clicky, clicky.

The game can be played quite well without any clickey clickey, whatsoever. Over 90% of the thousands of people who play this game do just fine without any clickey clickey, or after market analysis software analysis tools, or whatever.

The game is like an onion. You can play it straight up and have a good deal of fun. Once you get used to it, you can get deeper and deeper. But if you are a noob to the game, don't listen to people who are deep in the gravity well. They will only say things based on their own proclivities, which are NOT rationally related to the game design.

Good point, there's a lot a said on the forums about pilot training, leaders for all sorts of units, the optimal altitude, etc.. If you're new and just want a game against the AI, you can safely ignore most of that.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 10:08:37 PM

Walloc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

China is really the one I'd like to see AI handled. Otherwise, I'm fine. Basically, what I'm looking for is AE with the volume down.

I dont think it has been mentioned. There in AE is actually some scn's with a quiet China that u can choose when u play the AI.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 10:23:29 PM

aprezto

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You do have support for greater screen resolution in AE. This is a vast improvement, enabling more of the battlefield to be viewed at a time. Otherwise there is no difference between Vanilla and AE: up close or world view (where you can click on things but get no mouse-hover menu).

While there is masses of clicking in both games, I would never give up waypoints and patrol zones now that I've got them.

The GUI is still too cumbersome, but I can't see how they refine it too much as there is just so much information available. Another of the GREAT steps forward in AE is that the 'back' command actually works (click on a task force, click on the carrier, click on the fighter squad, click on the pilot roster, then you can click back through that whole tree - this doesn't work in Vanilla - have to exit and come from the top again).
However, they have added in pilot training. This is an absolute micromanagement nightmare. So much so I just live with rubbish pilots. Those that go through the rigmarole of using it gain a large benefit unfortunately...
Land combat has been improved but it still a poor second to the naval and air model. I much rather invading islands such that movement over land is not an issue.
Saying that, the air model still has some gremlins. Now altitude is the most important changeable order, with a scissors-paper-rock model of fighter ascendancy: Sweep over CAP over escort. The problem is that you can't target your own hexes or naval TFs with a sweep; escorts missions constantly lose their bombing charges (something that certainly happened in WW2 but it appears to be the rule not the exception), which means your bombers meet fighters by themselves and get gutted, this in turn means you lose your pilots, which in turn means you must wrestle with the pilot training model (grrrr); and CAP, which should be affected by radar, doesn't appear to work as a rule (either) but as an exception - maybe this is realistic for WW2 Pacific radar - unsure.
Scouting arcs add a whole lot of realism to the game, but are questionable additions for the grand admiral level. This, again, was a player request as the WitP model was quite unrealistic regarding efficiency to find shipping, but adding it is another MM overhead.
Ultimately though, these are niggles, not game killers. And the improvements far outweigh the remaining foibles. As 'AnarchyintheUK' pointed out, the first time you have your DDs toasted by a shore battery because you can't change the range on bombardments you'll want that functionality.
As in all changes, the initial confusion is grating, but you do get used to it.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 11:30:01 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

You do have support for greater screen resolution in AE. This is a vast improvement, enabling more of the battlefield to be viewed at a time. Otherwise there is no difference between Vanilla and AE: up close or world view (where you can click on things but get no mouse-hover menu).

While there is masses of clicking in both games, I would never give up waypoints and patrol zones now that I've got them.

The GUI is still too cumbersome, but I can't see how they refine it too much as there is just so much information available. Another of the GREAT steps forward in AE is that the 'back' command actually works (click on a task force, click on the carrier, click on the fighter squad, click on the pilot roster, then you can click back through that whole tree - this doesn't work in Vanilla - have to exit and come from the top again).
However, they have added in pilot training. This is an absolute micromanagement nightmare. So much so I just live with rubbish pilots. Those that go through the rigmarole of using it gain a large benefit unfortunately...
Land combat has been improved but it still a poor second to the naval and air model. I much rather invading islands such that movement over land is not an issue.
Saying that, the air model still has some gremlins. Now altitude is the most important changeable order, with a scissors-paper-rock model of fighter ascendancy: Sweep over CAP over escort. The problem is that you can't target your own hexes or naval TFs with a sweep; escorts missions constantly lose their bombing charges (something that certainly happened in WW2 but it appears to be the rule not the exception), which� means your bombers meet fighters by themselves and get gutted, this in turn means you lose your pilots, which in turn means you must wrestle with the pilot training model (grrrr); and CAP, which should be affected by radar, doesn't appear to work as a rule (either) but as an exception - maybe this is realistic for WW2 Pacific radar - unsure.
Scouting arcs add a whole lot of realism to the game, but are questionable additions for the grand admiral level. This, again, was a player request as the WitP model was quite unrealistic regarding efficiency to find shipping, but adding it is another MM overhead.
Ultimately though, these are niggles, not game killers. And the improvements far outweigh the remaining foibles. As 'AnarchyintheUK' pointed out, the first time you have your DDs toasted by a shore battery because you can't change the range on bombardments you'll want that functionality.
As in all changes, the initial confusion is grating, but you do get used to it.

How do you change the screen resolution? From everything I've read, it's fixed.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/15/2010 11:39:27 PM

aprezto

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You make a short cut to the WitP exe and there are some switches to add to the 'target' field. 'How to' is in the suplimentary documentation that comes with the latest patches (this functionality was included in an update patch)

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 2:31:41 AM

WriterJWA

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Not to drive a thread into the ground ... but are there any screenshots out there with the map at a higher resolution than stock so I can see what's in store? Also, does anyone know if there are any plans to include command delegation features in later updates?

Sorry to be so nitpicky ... I just want to make sure that after I spend $100 dollars, that I have a game that will keep me in it for a VERY long time. (Though I recognize the games allure for sure ... you guys are slowly selling me on going AE).

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 2:45:21 AM

jomni

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I stopped playing AE and planning to go back and play stock WITP�after I finish my UV campaign.
But�I still play AE for PBEM but only the Guadalcanal scenario.
I really hate the production part of the game (as Japan) and AE made it worse.
Well most of you will just say that I should play US instead but 僕は日本ファンボイですよ (I'm a Japanese Fanboy).

Finally AE put a lot of deatils that causes a lot of complaints from rivet-counting grognards. I would have been better if these were kept hidden from the player like UV. This is just my opinion.

I'm not stopping you from buying AE as it does fix the problems of stock WITP. But I have this notion that more detail does not make it a better game. I would have prefered that they fixed stock WITP instead of feeding us with excess 'fat'.

< Message edited by jomni -- 9/16/2010 3:01:51 AM >

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 3:44:56 AM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I stopped playing AE and planning to go back and play stock WITP�after I finish my UV campaign.
But�I still play AE for PBEM but only the Guadalcanal scenario.
I really hate the production part of the game (as Japan) and AE made it worse.
Well most of you will just say that I should play US instead but 僕は日本ファンボイですよ (I'm a Japanese Fanboy).

Finally AE put a lot of deatils that causes a lot of complaints from rivet-counting grognards. I would have been better if these were kept hidden from the player like UV. This is just my opinion.

I'm not stopping you from buying AE as it does fix the problems of stock WITP. But I have this notion that more detail does not make it a better game. I would have prefered that they fixed stock WITP instead of feeding us with excess 'fat'.

You've given me some good feedback on the UV forum ... it sounds like were on the same page regarding WitP. I would gladly exchange for the rivet counting for enhanced C3 and delegation capabilities. I don't know how interested I am in micromanaging transferring a newly formed infantry division from San Diego to their next stop. I jut want to give the order, organize the ride, and let the TF commanders make it happen.

What's the deal with the production system? How much does it influence the game?

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 3:50:32 AM

aprezto

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it's the main reason I've steered clear of playing Japan. I hate the production system. Just too complicated for me.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 4:16:36 AM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Hearts of Iron 3 ? utter baloney imo , when i saw Soviet Russia surrender to Roumania I just gave up !.

Is it realy that bad ? I played HOI2 for awile but for some reason I stayed away from the 3rd one.

HOI 1 and 2 were sort of fun. No go on 3.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 4:25:02 AM

stuman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

it's the main reason I've steered clear of playing Japan. I hate the production system. Just too complicated for me.

This is a great example of how deep this game can be and how much I think it has to offer. One of my favorite parts of the game is the Japanese production system

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 6:18:43 AM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
What's the deal with the production system? How much does it influence the game?

Successful management of production (especially aircraft) and training of pilots may make the defense of Japan easier in 1944-45. That means you can't just let the economy run on autopilot and concentrate on military matters only. WITP has a detailed aircraft production system where you must have the right engines in stock to produce a certain plane (just like Bombing of the Reich). The variety of engines types were realistically expanded in WITP AE compared to vanilla WITP.

Anyway, if you want to avoid the production problem, then you can just play the Allies and it's still a great experience.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 8:19:59 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

Not to drive a thread into the ground ... but are there any screenshots out there with the map at a higher resolution than stock so I can see what's in store? Also, does anyone know if there are any plans to include command delegation features in later updates?

Sorry to be so nitpicky ... I just want to make sure that after I spend $100 dollars, that I have a game that will keep me in it for a VERY long time. (Though I recognize the games allure for sure ... you guys are slowly selling me on going AE).

Since I had one lying around.... A 1920 x 1200 screenshot. With search arcs.....

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Reg -- 9/16/2010 8:23:04 AM >

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 11:28:50 AM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Well I like the production part infact I wish it would have more detail. I concur however it would be nice to have some auto produce feature for those who cant be bothered.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 2:26:01 PM

WriterJWA

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@Reg:

You may have just sold me! Zooming out like that makes ALL the difference, and I had never seen the search archs before. I love to see stuff like that in a game. It looks like the ole' 1st Marine Division (and part of the Silent Second) is on the move here! I also like seeing movement paths. The tactical game series Combat Mission does a great job with that.

Rg: Production
I'm personally not a fan of controlling production, unless I'm playing a "total war" game like HOI or something similar (even then it feels tedious). MacArthur/Nimitz didn't have the luxury of deciding what to build or when, it was dictated to them, as was reinforcements (although they could certainly make requests).

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 2:30:46 PM

USSAmerica

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Jay, the Allies don't have to worry about production at all. I'm interested in the Japanese production system, but not yet confident enough to give it a try. Playing the Allies takes it out of the equation.

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RE: UV vet out to step it up a notch: WitP v. WitpAE - 9/16/2010 3:32:23 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I stopped playing AE and planning to go back and play stock WITP�after I finish my UV campaign.
But�I still play AE for PBEM but only the Guadalcanal scenario.
I really hate the production part of the game (as Japan) and AE made it worse.
Well most of you will just say that I should play US instead but 僕は日本ファンボイですよ (I'm a Japanese Fanboy).

Finally AE put a lot of deatils that causes a lot of complaints from rivet-counting grognards. I would have been better if these were kept hidden from the player like UV. This is just my opinion.

I'm not stopping you from buying AE as it does fix the problems of stock WITP. But I have this notion that more detail does not make it a better game. I would have prefered that they fixed stock WITP instead of feeding us with excess 'fat'.

You've given me some good feedback on the UV forum ... it sounds like were on the same page regarding WitP. I would gladly exchange for the rivet counting for enhanced C3 and delegation capabilities. I don't know how interested I am in micromanaging transferring a newly formed infantry division from San Diego to their next stop. I jut want to give the order, organize the ride, and let the TF commanders make it happen.

What's the deal with the production system? How much does it influence the game?

If you choose to play Japan, the production system will make or break you. Against the AI, it might be possible to do nothing to it and still have a decent game...against a good Allied player in a PBEM, you won't have an air force left to fight with....much like what really happened.

With WiTP or AE, if you want that infantry division to end up where you want it, you will have to form the TF, load the division, and tell it where to go...orders are on a more detailed level...not just upper strategic level of "4th ID needs to be here, get it done."

There is a reason some of us warn you about micromanagement and clicky clicky...not every likes to micromanage things, better off you get an opinion from a fellow micromanaging hater along with those that don't mind and developers...you'll generally find the truth somewhere in the middle.

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to WriterJWA)

Post #: 30