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RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/18/2010 11:14:46 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HHI

I wouldn't use WiTP as an example. The A/I in WiTP is absolutely pathetic and this is after rework after rework. The fact that A/I vs. A/I gave good results would sound encouraging if you didn't point out that this was also the case with WiTP. Obviously, A/I vs. A/I tests mean very little. There is still a lot of work to be done.


Hopefully WitE AI will much better. Whilst I don't pretend to know anything about computers/AI programming, nor have I played WiTP, my experience is that AI does better with simpler games. WitE is essentally linear cf any Pacific game which will be truly 2D with the added complexity of different rules etc for naval. Also allowing eg little if any control over production, simple stacking rules and none of the whistles and bells of diplomacy etc in HOI3, should mean that the AI's job here is relatively easier so it should do a better job.

HOI3 is a claasic of a game ruined by being too big/complex that the AI can't even do the basics very well. Such a shame as I loved HOI1 and 2 and thought 3 would be the best game ever. (Sorry - perhaps I should not say that here). That's why although I would love to see WitE become WitW and combined into WiE I fear WiE would be less than the sum of its parts. I so hope I will be proved wrong given how fast AI is improving.

Anyone else old enough to remember the precursor to WiR? At least I think I think it was GG. IRRC. 64 bit, black and white army level and the Soviet winter offensive consisted of forming lots of armies into 2 rows charging headlong into a large lake and staying there. It was a maasive improvement over any previous strategy game. At least I can say that playing on the hardest level, I always destroyed every unit in the Soviet army by summer '42. I doubt many others reading this can make that feeble boast............

NB doing it playing Making History 2 doesn't count. My Poles would have done that by end of 1935 (sic) if I had not got bored and it was only on normal difficulty. Germany was conquered in '34.

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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to HHI)
Post #: 31
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/19/2010 12:49:47 PM   
FM WarB

 

Posts: 292
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Other than the fact that we're awaiting the inclusion of the server based PBEM code,


What is server based PBEM code? (I hope it does not mean that players will not be able to easily, directly exchange PBEM files.)

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 32
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/20/2010 4:16:22 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		You can use normal PBEM, which uses passwords for protection but otherwise has no "cheat" protection. Or, you can use Server PBEM where you log onto a server while you're playing. You can find players via the server and it will let people know if saved games are being reloaded multiple times. People at Slitherine that have used this system in their games are helping us get this system into WitE.

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(in reply to FM WarB)
Post #: 33
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/21/2010 9:48:43 AM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.   

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother?   It's only a game ( - shock announcement!)

_____________________________

Stuart 'von Jaeger' Hunt

WitE Alpha, Beta Tester


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 34
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/21/2010 1:33:02 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Good point Stuart, trust is a huge factor. I'm not a computer guy my wargaming was a spread out board and hundreds of counters to soart out before I could even start. So if someone needs to cheat (there out there) then just find someone else to play. My only concern is I get airheaded while playing, moving all these peices and once in a while you think your moving a unit, only to find you moved the last unit a second time (sucks). So I go back to my last save and redo. Now thats going to show as a cheat, but it was just me being stupid...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to SGHunt)
Post #: 35
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/21/2010 2:55:29 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		I have played a lot in pbem Witp and have never any single problem with trust ... i'm even surprised to see such discussion
there were some standard secure measurment that prevented reload / redo and it was fine





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(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 36
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/21/2010 6:05:45 PM   
Neal_MLC

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		I think that most PBEMers are a trustworthy group of people.  Cheaters get found out real quick and are usually ostracized by the group. 

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no matter where you go, there you are

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 37
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/21/2010 7:00:00 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

I think that most PBEMers are a trustworthy group of people.  Cheaters get found out real quick and are usually ostracized by the group. 


Cheaters and gamesmenship players, one and the same for me. Peeps who exploit the games move system or supply system or what they can do to get an unnatural or unrealistic advantage.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to Neal_MLC)
Post #: 38
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/23/2010 3:44:29 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		After having struggled with Schwerpunkt's "Russo-German War" for awhile, I'm hoping that this game will be playable. Ron Dockal tried his best, but on my XP system it just doesn't work.


(in reply to tiger111)
Post #: 39
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/23/2010 6:16:39 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline
quote:

I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother? It's only a game ( - shock announcement!)


It's only a game? Then why do I find myself lying in bed at night wondering how to defeat my opponant? What tactics to use, when to stand, when to run, when to attack? When I get game situations and real life mixed up when I watch the news?

Driving on the roads and looking at the surroundings, thinking here would a great place to defend or a terrible place for my attack.

Good job it's only a game.

Mat

_____________________________

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WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to SGHunt)
Post #: 40
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/27/2010 11:57:12 PM   
hgilmer3


Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.   

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother?   It's only a game ( - shock announcement!)


I've never played PBEM but I'm thinking seriously about trying it. I have seen forums where they were talking about it being an issue and just the hint that some one was cheating or getting "favorable dies" was enough to really start some people going after one another. You'd think it was just a game, but some seem to think it more.

(in reply to SGHunt)
Post #: 41
RE: When will it turn BETA - 9/29/2010 5:42:47 PM   
DrewBlack


Posts: 828
Joined: 7/3/2004
From: North Wales, UK
Status: offline 		Is the fact that Joel has released a list of scenarios avialable at the time of release a sign theat its turning to beta and then to Gold.



I dont mind paying to be a paying beta tester on this beut of a game, I think its a race what comes first Christmas or WitE

I still reckon a 3rd December 2010 release date.

Drew

(in reply to hgilmer3)
Post #: 42
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/2/2010 6:54:19 PM   
Bossy573


Posts: 363
Joined: 3/25/2005
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

I'm a novice at PBEM and I have found it very easy to both send and receive save files.   

As for the security thing, if I can't trust my opponent not to cheat, then why bother?   It's only a game ( - shock announcement!)


I've never played PBEM but I'm thinking seriously about trying it. I have seen forums where they were talking about it being an issue and just the hint that some one was cheating or getting "favorable dies" was enough to really start some people going after one another. You'd think it was just a game, but some seem to think it more.


Another PBEM novice here but I will certainly give it a go when the time comes.

_____________________________


(in reply to hgilmer3)
Post #: 43
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/2/2010 11:20:22 PM   
Pford

 

Posts: 235
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
People at Slitherine that have used this system in their games are helping us get this system into WitE.


That's terrific news. WEGO systems, like CM which I played quite a bit in the past, seem less vulnerable but this will be IGO/UGO. The trouble with the reload scheme is that it doesn't, IIRC, prevent a player from copying the save file and playing off that. I've had some suspicious encounters via PBEM. True, most people are trustworthy but, given the diminutive universe of wargamers, a relatively ironclad exchange opens more opportunities with the shifty types.

My only caveat is that, with the Slitherine system, the admin has to periodically delete inactive games and PBEMers must depend on the company continuing in business. But this should boost the MP community. Big time.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 44
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/4/2010 2:42:57 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"Peeps who exploit the games move system or supply system or what they can do to get an unnatural or unrealistic advantage. "

The problem is defing what is unnantural or unrealistic. Some players beleive that if the game engine allows it, then it is okay. Is it exploitation or intelligent use of the game system?

Marquo

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 45
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/4/2010 5:06:00 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

"Peeps who exploit the games move system or supply system or what they can do to get an unnatural or unrealistic advantage. "


I have a problem with this statement as well. As I often exploit situations where I know clear well the developers either didn't bother taking the time to fix, or they & their beta testers were too incompetent to notice. However, I think I am entitled to do so, since I often try to set up the difficulties to the maximum available. Thus I will gladly take any advantage that I can get.

BTW, Rommel did not always battle in a manner that was orthodox to his opponents, does that mean he was cheating?







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(in reply to mmarquo)
Post #: 46
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/4/2010 7:13:57 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete
BTW, Rommel did not always battle in a manner that was orthodox to his opponents, does that mean he was cheating?


No offense, but this real world example has no relevance. Cheating in PBEM is entirely different than being "unorthodox" on the battlefield....unless it's agreed upon by both players--meaning, it's stated up front that it's OK to start turns over, hack into the opponent's turns, etc.--than cheating shouldn't be accepted.

(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 47
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/5/2010 12:22:23 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		OK then but what about Captain Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru?

Huh? HUH??????



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(in reply to TPM)
Post #: 48
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/5/2010 12:52:34 AM   
RocketMan


Posts: 718
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Delaware, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

OK then but what about Captain Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru?

Huh? HUH??????


5 nerd points to Crimguy!

< Message edited by RocketMan -- 10/5/2010 12:53:32 AM >

(in reply to Crimguy)
Post #: 49
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/5/2010 3:24:16 AM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

OK then but what about Captain Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru?

Huh? HUH??????




Crap, I forgot about that.

(in reply to Crimguy)
Post #: 50
RE: When will it turn BETA - 10/5/2010 4:41:53 AM   
Neal_MLC

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		Just becuase a program allows it doesn't mean that it should be done.  While it is not technically cheating it is unethical and should not be done.  Awhile ago I was playing Decision Games Computer war in Europe and my opponent dropped something like 10-12 para regiments, in addition to the 10 units already there, into North Africa enven thought the rules stated no more than 10 German units could be in NA. His response was the program allowed it so it was OK. The limit was stated in the rules and he agreed so we re-did the turn. If I hadn't played this guy several times previously and knew his character I would have bailed on the game. What I am trying to say that intenetioanlly exploiting a glitch, bug or some other flaw in the application is not OK. For some one to do this intentionally usually means gome over for me.

_____________________________

no matter where you go, there you are

(in reply to TPM)
Post #: 51
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