Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds.

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/6/2010 9:27:53 PM   
NavalNewZ


Posts: 118
Joined: 8/19/2009
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		No one seems to have mentioned AI War Fleet Command. I'm a little surprised, as I believe it deserves as much attention as the other titles listed here. Guess being an indie title, it just hasn't got much publicity...

_____________________________

..there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today

(in reply to Barnacle Bill)
Post #: 61
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/6/2010 9:55:51 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavalNewZ
No one seems to have mentioned AI War Fleet Command. I'm a little surprised, as I believe it deserves as much attention as the other titles listed here. Guess being an indie title, it just hasn't got much publicity...


Great game, but it's an RTS (albeit a rather unusual one), rather than a '4X'. Chris Park is a brilliant designer, his next (Tidalis) is superb as well.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 9/6/2010 10:00:53 PM >

(in reply to NavalNewZ)
Post #: 62
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/11/2010 4:09:14 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Birth of the federation had borders.There where owned sectors,contested sectors and unclaimed sectors.Colonizing in a contested sector triggerd war with the contester for example but your ships could pass through.Entering a non allied owned sector triggered war too.

_____________________________



(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 63
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/11/2010 7:35:12 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Birth of the federation had borders.There where owned sectors,contested sectors and unclaimed sectors.Colonizing in a contested sector triggerd war with the contester for example but your ships could pass through.Entering a non allied owned sector triggered war too.


DW doesn't have static borders per se, but if you go and colonize a world in a system an AI player has already colonized, just watch the relations drop...especially if they start bugging you wanting it and you refuse. I've had war declared on me plenty of times for not giving up stations or planets that ended up in another empires 'territory'.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 64
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/12/2010 10:07:15 AM   
Baleur


Posts: 372
Joined: 1/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavalNewZ

No one seems to have mentioned AI War Fleet Command. I'm a little surprised, as I believe it deserves as much attention as the other titles listed here. Guess being an indie title, it just hasn't got much publicity...


I agree.. But it sure has more publicity than Distant Worlds, which is a shame.
AI War and DW are my absolute favorite 4x space games right now!

If you call AI War an rts, so is DW, but they arent, they are grand scale strategy, hence 4x. 4x doesnt automatically require the game to be turn based, thats why we have the term "turn based 4x". Regardless if the combat is in real-time or not, or the entire game itself, if it retains the same vision of being a huge grand strategy title spanning lightyears and 10's of hours in one session, its 4x dammit! :P
Even X3 was considered a 4x, and thats a first person shooter / trader game :P

Then again, all the genres are pretty pointless to argue about, just like in music :)

(in reply to NavalNewZ)
Post #: 65
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/12/2010 11:11:24 AM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur


quote:

ORIGINAL: NavalNewZ

No one seems to have mentioned AI War Fleet Command. I'm a little surprised, as I believe it deserves as much attention as the other titles listed here. Guess being an indie title, it just hasn't got much publicity...


I agree.. But it sure has more publicity than Distant Worlds, which is a shame.
AI War and DW are my absolute favorite 4x space games right now!

If you call AI War an rts, so is DW, but they arent, they are grand scale strategy, hence 4x. 4x doesnt automatically require the game to be turn based, thats why we have the term "turn based 4x". Regardless if the combat is in real-time or not, or the entire game itself, if it retains the same vision of being a huge grand strategy title spanning lightyears and 10's of hours in one session, its 4x dammit! :P
Even X3 was considered a 4x, and thats a first person shooter / trader game :P

Then again, all the genres are pretty pointless to argue about, just like in music :)


Well, damn! After watching some videos and trailers of AI war I got really interested in it. So I'm asking this: If I like my game slow paced and easy to control like DW, would I make a mistake buying AI war and its expansions?


_____________________________

Nothing is impossible, not if you can imagine it!
"And they hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear."

(in reply to Baleur)
Post #: 66
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/12/2010 2:57:37 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

If you call AI War an rts, so is DW, but they arent, they are grand scale strategy, hence 4x.


I would argue the former is an RTS and the latter a 4X because DW has two things most consider essential in some form in 4X games that AI War does not, diplomacy and a manageable economy. As you say, not worth a fight about though!

(in reply to Baleur)
Post #: 67
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/18/2010 11:31:21 AM   
Xydonus

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/18/2010
Status: offline 		Tried AI War before, didn't like it, found it too simplistic, interesting concept with the AI intelligence, but it felt very bare to me...

Regarding Distant Worlds, before that came along, I enjoyed such games as Birth of the Federation, and GalCiv2, which was at the top-stop along with the brilliant star trek mod that I found for it. However, Distant Worlds seems to be a very grown-up version of GalCiv2, GalCiv was written in a specific way and it never really came off 'serious' in its tone.

Distant Worlds for me is the only pure empire building sim that I can think off along with its depth and mechanics.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 68
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/18/2010 10:25:22 PM   
Cosian

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/22/2006
Status: offline 		Hard to compare the top games in the genre because each has a bit of a different focus methinks......

AI Wars - Extremely inovative approach to AI. Here its not a click race against the AI as the AI is more responding to the current threat level it detects and you are presenting at that time and place. This one is very unique and definetly worth a look. More of a combat strategy game than an epic empire builder. If your looking for personality and roleplay this isn't it. Its great single player, but at its core it is designed to be a multiplayer co-op against the AI. Now thats a lot fun. Again, think unique cause this one certainly is.

Gal Civ 2 with Expansions - I have not dusted it off in awhile but I certainly got my moneys worth with that. It does not have the personality of DW by a long shot, but its got to be one of my all time favs. Compared to some of the newer offerings, the tech tree was large but pretty static and you tend to research things the same way all the time. Twilight added quite a bit of race varied tech which was cool. The 'die roll' combat and 'rock paper scissors' approach to offensive and defensive systems left a bit to be desired but it works. And what other offering in the genre lets you build ships that really look like a cabbage patch kid? :) This ship building was kind of a game within the game if you wanted to spend the time..... The game had some personality and if you like watching the color of your empire spread across the galaxy, this one is good. I thought the cultural domination was over powering and the AI didn't seem to deal with it very well.

SOTS is one of my all time favs and I can't wait for SOTS2. That said, its a sci-fi combat strategy game and probably the best. Turn based builds and strategy with real time physics based combat. Very cool! Great multiplayer! The SOTS approach to a tech tree rocks. Here you have a very large and deep tree with lots of options. But the best part is the variation you get from game to game due your racial percentage chance of continuing down a particular branch. So as a Hiver I have a pretty good chance of getting the Point Defense Tech which is intregal to most of my designs, but you might not discover that tech in any particular game so you need to adjust. Very cool stuff. You really can't compare this game to DW. It has a completely different focus.

Sins of the Solar Empire - I put a lot of time into this one as well. Its definetely more of a click fest as you build and expand but I found it to be a very fun game. Not on the top of my list, but its still on the hard drive so it bodes well for the game.

Armada 20 something or other :) - With all the other great titles in the genre out there, this just did not get me interested on any level and it lost a spot on the hard drive after a few days.

DW - I have only been playing it for a week now, but as many others have stated, it has a heck of a personality and you do really feel like the galaxy is a living breathing entity. I love the whole concept of mining outposts and ships as integral to your economy as opposed to just making everything about the colony. It is good as it is, but I think it has some holes. The research thing needs some work. It seems I bascially design a 'do all' research station and put it next to a black hole and I max research. As my research potential increases, I just knock out another one at the same black hole. Something needs to be done here, but this ain't the thread for it. Also, the races need more personality in terms of techs and components....though I have not played enough to see the race unique tech yet. Great game nonetheless.



(in reply to Xydonus)
Post #: 69
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/21/2010 2:13:37 PM   
hewwo

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
Status: offline 		You guys should really check out star ruler as well. I'm surprised not everybody on this board has already jumped on the bandwagon, since the game is so similar to DW.

It's in a rather rough form right now (just as DW was a while ago), but the devs are patching it with incredible speed. The even have a live patch note thread on the forum which updates twice a day or so. I would say dev support is even better than with DW, and that's saying something :) (besides, it's just fun to watch the game evolve under your eyes).

TBH, I'm not playing either game at the moment... but the potential in both is undeniable! Really, we should support both games equally :)


(in reply to Cosian)
Post #: 70
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/21/2010 7:34:42 PM   
Cosian

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hewwo

You guys should really check out star ruler as well. I'm surprised not everybody on this board has already jumped on the bandwagon, since the game is so similar to DW.

It's in a rather rough form right now (just as DW was a while ago), but the devs are patching it with incredible speed. The even have a live patch note thread on the forum which updates twice a day or so. I would say dev support is even better than with DW, and that's saying something :) (besides, it's just fun to watch the game evolve under your eyes).

TBH, I'm not playing either game at the moment... but the potential in both is undeniable! Really, we should support both games equally :)




I did beta on Star Rulers. Another game with awsome potential but make no mistake it is a long ways off. Kudo's to the small team that is working their butt off on this. That said, I dunno. To me it felt like some really really inovative subsystems that had not quite come together into a game. I did not find the game in its current form similar to DW at all other than its in set in space. That said, the totally open ended ship design is quite something to see. I stopped playing it about the second week of August because it seemed so far from anything near completion with their release date right around the corner. Stardock has already dropped the price from $24.95 to $19.95.

Again, SR has some incredible potential....perhaps the most moddable infrastructure of any 4x Space RTS. So hopefully the small and extremely dedicated dev team will make enough to complete what is some really good work, or the modder community will grab it and make something of it. It's worth $19.95 to take a look and see where it goes methinks.



< Message edited by Cosian -- 9/21/2010 7:35:18 PM >

(in reply to hewwo)
Post #: 71
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/22/2010 1:07:55 PM   
avdpos

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline 		Needed to have a look at Star Rulers forum.. Looks like something that ain´t finished (which the crew admitted on a forum, they needed money) but that am really moddable for those who do such stuff..

For me it then sounds like something that would be fun to play when the modders and developing team have had a year or something like that to develop things more... But I will test the demo of the game..

(in reply to Cosian)
Post #: 72
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/22/2010 2:24:03 PM   
the1sean


Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Distant Worlds keeps me coming back more than any recent 4X game in any genre. Its solid and innovative, and will only improve with expansions and sequels.

(in reply to avdpos)
Post #: 73
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/22/2010 5:03:52 PM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Since I started playing DW in March, I've had a couple of periods without playing it, but I always come back to it after a 2-3 week break from it.

Only 2 other games have had that effect on me. And they weren't even 4X games.

I think the only way that I would consider Star Ruler is if everyone on this board ganged up on me and told me I was crazy for not playing it. Maybe that will happen some time in the future when they improve it a bit.

_____________________________

The Picard Era for Distant Worlds

Igard's Romulan Stormbird

(in reply to the1sean)
Post #: 74
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/30/2010 12:09:08 PM   
hewwo

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

I think the only way that I would consider Star Ruler is if everyone on this board ganged up on me and told me I was crazy for not playing it. Maybe that will happen some time in the future when they improve it a bit.


Well, nobody is going to tell you that you're crazy for not playing it in the current state :) but you're crazy for not supporting it! It has at least as much potential as DW, if not more. And the devs are crazy active on the boards, even going as far as posting their progress on the next patch twice a day. Awesome! They totally deserve our support just as much as DW does.

(in reply to Igard)
Post #: 75
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 9/30/2010 3:22:06 PM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hewwo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

I think the only way that I would consider Star Ruler is if everyone on this board ganged up on me and told me I was crazy for not playing it. Maybe that will happen some time in the future when they improve it a bit.


Well, nobody is going to tell you that you're crazy for not playing it in the current state :) but you're crazy for not supporting it! It has at least as much potential as DW, if not more. And the devs are crazy active on the boards, even going as far as posting their progress on the next patch twice a day. Awesome! They totally deserve our support just as much as DW does.


That is very encouraging. I'm starting to sway!



_____________________________

The Picard Era for Distant Worlds

Igard's Romulan Stormbird

(in reply to hewwo)
Post #: 76
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/2/2010 9:54:07 AM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		DW is great, but are there any games out there that represent the tactical ship combat, for the times when you don't care about economies, diplomacy, and the like? I would love to play a game that allowed a number of capital ships on both sides, from FF up to BB. Any suggestions?

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to Igard)
Post #: 77
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/2/2010 3:33:52 PM   
hewwo

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
Status: offline 		How about homeworld 2 + mods

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 78
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/2/2010 8:30:28 PM   
martok


Posts: 837
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

DW is great, but are there any games out there that represent the tactical ship combat, for the times when you don't care about economies, diplomacy, and the like? I would love to play a game that allowed a number of capital ships on both sides, from FF up to BB. Any suggestions?

It sounds like Gratuitous Space Battles might be the game you're looking for.




< Message edited by martok -- 10/2/2010 8:31:52 PM >

_____________________________

"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal


(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 79
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/3/2010 5:09:11 AM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Hadn't thought about older games that have been modded, I'll have to check into that.

As for GSB, I recently followed a link to that and it has definite potential. I just can't decide if its too cheesy.

I would love to find something that looks like AI Wars, when its at the smallest, tactical scale. Kind of an Eve online look.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to martok)
Post #: 80
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/3/2010 9:17:54 AM   
AminMaalouf

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		Space Mod for Supreme Commander has never been released, I guess?

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 81
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/4/2010 6:19:54 AM   
Eldiora

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/26/2010
Status: offline 		how would you rate this game against Armada 2526. I have Distant Worlds and really enjoy the vastness of it. GalCiv2 was always a little bit too "small". But with DW i feel really like managing a galactic empire. How does Armada 2526 play against that?
I know not totally on topic, but I tought getting another topic for that would be a waste.


Oh and for tactical combat. Get Homeworld 2 + Mods (to be precis the Homeworld 2 mod "Complex") If you can overlook a bit dated graphics (altough the design of the ships i still find absolutely breathtaking), its the perfect for commanding fleets and with the Complex mod its simply on another level.

< Message edited by Eldiora -- 10/4/2010 6:23:18 AM >

(in reply to NavalNewZ)
Post #: 82
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/5/2010 4:42:37 AM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Complex looks like just the ticket, thanks!

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to Eldiora)
Post #: 83
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/5/2010 6:14:42 AM   
Eldiora

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/26/2010
Status: offline 		np, i stll love Homeworld 2 with complex because it nearly makes a whole new game out of it, or better said it brings a depth to the strategy level of the game that its awesome. If Relic ever gets to do HW3 it should start where Complex is right now.


Any comparison tough between DW and Armada 2526? I have played DW like crazy for the past weeks but i am at a point where i know this treshhold, I know exactly "and now I can steamroll anything" Its about when the colonization phase is well under the way and my fleets, research ect is booming. The beginning I can make as hard as possible but the game seems to only keep its difficulty until a certain point, once you are established to some degree its hard to ever loose to the AI.

Oh and once you tried HW2 with Complex, there is a certain beauty when you have 5 Capital ships (they are called battleships but oh well they are huge) together with a supporting fleet and a space fortress warping right on top of the enemy gigantic attack fleet and you see the missiles and nukes launching and the lasers transforming the dark space into shiny disco lights :)

< Message edited by Eldiora -- 10/5/2010 6:16:55 AM >

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 84
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/5/2010 10:36:35 PM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		In a nutshell, DW is chess, Armada is checkers.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to Eldiora)
Post #: 85
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/6/2010 4:30:00 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline 		Nice analogy Rebel...

_____________________________

Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 86
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/6/2010 10:14:26 AM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

In a nutshell, DW is chess, Armada is checkers.



I would say it is the other way round.Armada has more actual strategic choices in the game and is harder.DW is a great immersive game but the strategic choices are a no brainer really.

_____________________________


(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 87
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/6/2010 10:05:12 PM   
martok


Posts: 837
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

In a nutshell, DW is chess, Armada is checkers.



I would say it is the other way round.Armada has more actual strategic choices in the game and is harder.DW is a great immersive game but the strategic choices are a no brainer really.

There must be a full moon out or something, because this is the second time today that I find myself in agreement with you.

Don't get me wrong: Both are highly enjoyable games. I concur with Ashbery, though, that Armada seems to be more challenging overall. Having played the game quite a bit over the last several days (and with the new update), I have a much greater appreciation for Armada now than I did before. The various patches have definitely improved the experience.


_____________________________

"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal


(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 88
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/7/2010 3:05:59 AM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Well, I'll have to admit I haven't even looked at Armada in some time, as it was quite limited, much easier, not very strategic, and not nearly as immersive as DW, imho.

Sounds like the last Armada patch must have added a lot.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to martok)
Post #: 89
RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. - 10/7/2010 3:59:08 AM   
martok


Posts: 837
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

Well, I'll have to admit I haven't even looked at Armada in some time, as it was quite limited, much easier, not very strategic, and not nearly as immersive as DW, imho.

In fairness, I do think Armada wasn't that great when it was first released. It wasn't horrible by any means, and it definitely had potential, but it was also....lacking something. Until this last week, I too hadn't really played the game (at least not extensively) in quite some time, and I was pleasantly surprised by just how much it's changed since last autumn. There's still plenty of room for improvement, but it's definitely come a long way.


I will, however, admit I think Distant Worlds is still the more immersive of the two games. To paraphrase what Jarhead said over on the Wargamer forums earlier today, it feels more vibrant, and does a much better job of portraying a living galaxy. Armada, by contrast, remains somewhat dry. (Of course, I suspect most other 4x titles would look fairly "dry" when compared to DW, so that may not be saying much. ) I do find both games to have a good deal of atmosphere, but Distant Worlds definitely has more "flavor".




quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

Sounds like the last Armada patch must have added a lot.

At least in part, yes, although I strongly suspect the previous 1.3 update added quite a bit as well. Since I hadn't really played Armada since well before it was released, however, I'm now essentially enjoying the benefits of two patches, not just one.




_____________________________

"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal


(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 90
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> RE: GalCiv2 vs SEV vs Distant Worlds. Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.203