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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Tech Support >> Performance issues Page: [1]
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Performance issues - 8/16/2002 5:12:40 PM   
shark

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Gentlemen ,
Let me say that having played PacWar Pbem for many years that i have been eagerly awaiting UV and WitP to finally bring the interface into the modern world. This has been achieved in style by UV and looks equally great in WitP. The game has all the nail biting tension of pacwar and more.

However there are a few issues that have come up during our Pbem campaigns that have appeared that i wish to place before you

1 Us CV airgroup performance in the coral sea period seems reasonable however later in the game when the Midway period carrier engagements occur US carriers are ineveiibly bested . These engagements have all ended in all US carriers back in pearl, with 2 or sunk. Jap losses Minor.
apparent causes:
Kate performance Above Historical.
Divebomber hits less effective.
US strike co ordination very poor. eg all Sbd and Tbd go unescorted but tbf fly separatly with fighter cover.(target range 2 hexes)

2 Jap land based Torpedo bombers hit to accuratly and dont take the cripling losses they take historicaly from flakand fighters.
eg at Coral sea Craces Cruiser croup CA CA CL DD DD Was attacked by 8 torpedoes all missed and 5 were shot down by flack alone. 19 then bombed again with no hits
Post #: 1
Continued from performance issues - 8/16/2002 5:57:54 PM   
shark

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		The above strike against Crace was similar to the one that hit POW and Repulse.
At Guadlecanal the first strike on the transports of43 bettys was repelled by carrier cap losing 14 getting no hits( Jap loss figs).The second strike of 26 bettys lost 4 to 3 wildcats the transports flak alone then disrupted the strike, only 9 were seen to pass through the formation. Jap loss report states 17 losses. only one hit and one suicide hit.
I believe bettys are overated in the game.

3. Jap asw is far to effective and US asw is still underated(in V1.2). the us only lost 5 subs in the first 2 years of the war, one of them tied up in dock!. the jap sink rate is well above that in uv.
Morrison rates Jap ASW performance as " poor initialy and improved little during the war."

4. Several times jap subs have scored hits on Fast carriers with Large dd escorts. These were not limping cripples.

Let me say that i mention these points because i believe UV is the best operational naval wargame now available ,and the suport given by matrix is unsurpassed. improved routines in UV hopefully will also help WitP.
Thanks

PS References from History of USN ops. in WWII.S.E. Morrison. VOL IV P38-39 293-295 234

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 2
Re: Continued from performance issues - 8/16/2002 8:22:49 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by shark
[B]

4. Several times jap subs have scored hits on Fast carriers with Large dd escorts. These were not limping cripples.

[/B][/QUOTE]

And IRL, the Jap subs managed in a few months to sink the Wasp and to send back the Saratoga to the shipyard for nearly one year ... Both of them were not really limping cripples

Of course, to put some torpedoes in the Yorktown was quite easier ;)

About your other points, there were already some threads about strikes coordination & ASW accuracy ...

BTW, as a Japanese player, I often saw my Bettys slaughtered by US fighters when unescorted :confused:

_____________________________

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(in reply to shark)
Post #: 3
Re: Re: Continued from performance issues - 8/17/2002 6:48:55 AM   
shark

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]

BTW, as a Japanese player, I often saw my Bettys slaughtered by US fighters when unescorted :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Spooky
The strike refered to was escorted!
by 18 Zekes. they lost only two .
I have repeatidly seen smaller strikes in UV eg 20 betty 8 Zeke take on 20-40 cap get torp hits and take less than historical losses.

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 4
Re: Re: Continued from performance issues - 8/17/2002 6:57:13 AM   
shark

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]

And IRL, the Jap subs managed in a few months to sink the Wasp and to send back the Saratoga to the shipyard for nearly one year ... Both of them were not really limping cripples

Hi spooky.
I would call a CU virtually dead in the water or under tow LESS than a limping Cripple

Btw. your web site has great UV info, I find the maps great for planning,especialy as we play on three turn cycle.

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 5
Re: Continued from performance issues - 8/18/2002 1:32:03 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by shark
[
3. Jap asw is far to effective and US asw is still underated(in V1.2). the us only lost 5 subs in the first 2 years of the war, one of them tied up in dock!. the jap sink rate is well above that in uv.
Morrison rates Jap ASW performance as " poor initialy and improved little during the war."

4. Several times jap subs have scored hits on Fast carriers with Large dd escorts. These were not limping cripples.


PS References from History of USN ops. in WWII.S.E. Morrison. VOL IV P38-39 293-295 234 [/B][/QUOTE]

In regards to issue 3, we lost more than 5 subs in the first two years of the war. I quote Pg 210 of U.S. Submarine Operations in World War II by Roscoe:

"During 1942 but three US submarines were lost in battle with the Pacific enemy. Fifteen went down in action in 1943. From the offensive measures encountered and the heavy casualties sustained in the Southwest Pacific Area in the first quarter of 1943, it may be assumed that the Japanese A/S effort reached its peak of efficiency in this period. An examination of that effort provides background for the broadening picture of US submarine operations."

In regards to issue 4, during WWII, Jap subs did indeed score hits on major US fleet units several times....and not just on damaged units. in this time frame. Aside from the well known sinking of the damaged Yorktown at Midway, Jap subs penetrated US Task forces in 1942 and hit several major ships that were undamaged:

11 Jan Jap sub torpedos Saratoga near Johnston Island
Aug 31 I-26 hits Saratoga with 1 of 6 torpedo spread near Guadalcanal.
Sept 15 I-19 sinks Wasp with 3 torpedo hits
Sept 15 I-15 hits North Carolina with 1 torpedo and DD O'Brien with 1 torpedo.
Oct 20 I-76 torpedoes CA Chester


I think that the adjustments made in v1.2 make the balance about right. FWIW I am playing in PBEM games where I am Jap in one game and US in the other, so I can see both sides of the coin.

Don

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 6
- 8/19/2002 12:28:01 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I too have lost more submarines as the US than the historical record, but it is probably because I'm using them more aggressively. Rather than patrolling the open seas, I put them in or just outside of busy Japanese held harbors, even though the water is probably too shallow for them to easily evade ASW patrols.

When the subs are in the open seas and IJN ASW forces find them, most often they escape with little to no damage. I'd say that the IJN ASW capability is fairly accurate.

However, I feel that the USN ASW capability is still underrated. I've had CV's escorted by 9 destroyers get torpedoed by submarines at least twice, and both times the sub got away completely undetected. I've yet to see either side's ASW air assets make a successful attack on a sub as well. In fact, I've sunk only two IJN subs even though I'm in December 1942, and one of the subs was sunk in Rabaul as the result of a bombing raid!

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 7
- 8/19/2002 12:50:50 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		Air ASW is quite effective against subs in shallow waters ... (ie : in the same hex as your ports)

Just use your Medium bombers & A-24 at 100% ASW with an 1000' altitude ... and you will very quickly sink or heavily damage the japs subs ... :)

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(in reply to shark)
Post #: 8
- 8/19/2002 1:45:09 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Lansford
[B]However, I feel that the USN ASW capability is still underrated. I've had CV's escorted by 9 destroyers get torpedoed by submarines at least twice, and both times the sub got away completely undetected. I've yet to see either side's ASW air assets make a successful attack on a sub as well. In fact, I've sunk only two IJN subs even though I'm in December 1942, and one of the subs was sunk in Rabaul as the result of a bombing raid! [/B][/QUOTE]

I am playing two PBEM games with Strollen. In the first game, which is scenario 17, I am the Japs. It is approx turn 85. I know for a fact that I have sunk at least two US subs by using hunter killer DD groups and sending them to hexes where my aircraft have spotted subs. I have also damaged a further two, and possibly sunk one additional sub with my airborne ASW assets.

My success has not come from that game over-rating Jap ASW tactics. It has come from my specific concentration on sub hunting.
In fact, If a sub finds one of my convoys or task forces, it is often bad news for my boys. However, when I go out with the right equipment and specifically hunt for the subs, I have much better success. For me, the optimum tactic is to take 30-40 LBA and PA aircraft and set them to ASW patrol at 1000 ft. I will even take some of the floatplanes, especially the slower Petes, and set them to ASW instead of naval search. After I fix the location where the subs are operating, I keep the air assets up, and send in the hunter-killer group of one or two DD groups of 4-6 DDs. They sit on top of the contact and run it to ground.

Regarding ASW for the US, I have lost about 4 Jap subs, two on this past turn, to US ASW forces. In fact, if the Jap sub misses, often the consequences are not real good for my I-boat drivers.

In our other game, Scenario 19, I am the U.S. Looking from the other side of the coin, I have made submerged attacks on some of his Jap ships (missed the Shokaku but hit Haguro) and gotten clear away. Luckily he hasn't managed to engage me decisively with the Jap subs yet.

The important thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that in this time period, you didn't have sonobouys, towed sonar arrays, or helos with dippiing sonars. You had hydrophones for passive listening and sonar for active pinging. The ability of these devices to work is directly related to the speed of the ships using them. The faster a ship is going, the less effective the ability to detect the sub prior to the attack will be. In fact, at anything over 11kts, the ability to detect drops down to almost nothing. That is why the Jap subs (and American) are able to penetrate and attack your task forces without being detected in advance.

Don

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 9
- 8/19/2002 11:38:30 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		So far in my PBEM game (I'm Allies), it is Aug 11, 1942. We've each lost 5 subs. Of course, we are both committing lots of resources on ASW work. :D

I have lost 4 subs to ship attacks and had 1 other damaged. I have lost 1 sub to air attacks with 4 others damaged.

My opponent has lost 3 subs to ship attacks (my first was from a SC!!) with 5 damaged. He has also lost 2 subs to air attacks with another one damaged.

All sinkings are confirmed.

_____________________________


(in reply to shark)
Post #: 10
Re: Continued from performance issues - 9/3/2002 8:22:49 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by shark [/i
3. Jap asw is far to effective and US asw is still underated(in V1.2). the us only lost 5 subs in the first 2 years of the war, one of them tied up in dock!. the jap sink rate is well above that in uv.
Morrison rates Jap ASW performance as " poor initialy and improved little during the war."

4. Several times jap subs have scored hits on Fast carriers with Large dd escorts. These were not limping cripples.


'''
I agree heartily about the overestimation of the Japanese ASW in the game. I managed to lure 2 CVs, 1 CVL, 4 CAs and 7 DDs into a submarine ambush with a total of 7 submarines (in May 1942). The results: 4 US subs sunk, 2 damaged, 1 minor torpedo hit on a CA, multiple misses, several "spotted by escort" and interceptions by DDs. The DD Shigure mowed down 3 subs in rapid succession, and still had DCs left over. Most of the other DDs never had to attack. As you pointed out, the Japanese ASW efforts were very poor in the beginning of the war as they believed subs could not possibly go below 200 feet, and generally not below 150 feet. I have also had similar (but less dramatic results) in attacking TFs with more than 1 escort with US subs - the Japanese just tear them up.

Meanwhile, attacking Japanese submarines with "Hunter-Killer" groups of SCs and DDs is pure suicide for the Allied surface forces. Others have noted this, and someone commented it was probably the "luck of the dice" - I think it is a "feature" - the Japanese have done this almost every time I've tried to take them on in this manner.

(in reply to shark)
Post #: 11
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