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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Storm over the Pacific >> More ideas on how to make a good game better

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More ideas on how to make a good game better - 9/30/2010 7:43:41 PM

RJMI

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/21/2004
Status: offline

To the Game Developers:

More suggestions to make a good game better:

Carriers should not take a loss when their carrier planes take a loss. To prevent this, the carriers should be separated from the carrier planes. Each carrier can carry as many carrier planes as their number or less but no more. If a carrier number drops below the number of carrier planes, then the carrier planes take a loss to equal the number of the carrier. For example, The Hornet Carrier�s number is 8 and thus can carry 8 carrier planes or less but not more than 8. If the Hornet takes a two point lose to 6, then 2 carrier planes are lost also to equal 6 carrier planes.

Carrier plans should also be able to detach from the carrier and go to a land hex if within range. And carrier plans can be reinforced when on land and then fly back to a carrier that is in range provided that carrier has room for it. Carrier plans should also be able to attack from the land base. Also new carrier planes can be built on land and then fly to a carrier in range that needs them.

When carrier planes go on a mission, they alone should take the losses incurred not the Carrier they came from. Carriers should only take loses when hit by fire from an enemy plane or from a ship or sub in a sea battle.

Also carrier planes are too invincible when attacking an enemy flotilla that has many carriers and carrier planes to defend it or ward of the attack. When carrier planes attack an enemy flotilla, carrier planes from the enemy flotilla, if any, should be allowed to attack the incoming planes. If the number of enemy planes is greater than the incoming planes after the air attack is resolved, then the incoming plans should retreat to their carriers without being able to attack the flotilla or maybe some odds chance of some hitting the flotilla could be calculated depending on how many more enemy carrier plans there are than the incoming planes. Retreated carrier plans should not be allowed to attack again in the same turn.

Maybe you could have only the enemy carrier planes that did not fly a mission on the previous turn intercept the incoming carrier planes. But then you would have to have a way of only sending some of the carrier planes on carrier on a mission while holding back others for defence. I do not know what this would do to the game or how hard it would be to make it work.

There also seems to be an imbalance of Japan�s carriers as they multiply almost as fast as they are destroyed. I do not know if this was the case historically. The AI does not exploit this but a human player could and would overwhelm the Allies because of the great imbalance. For instance, the allies could have 7 carriers to Japan�s 22 carriers.

Also, a better rule book explaining all the rulers is needed or some will get discouraged from playing the game and others will not realize the good rules that are part of the game. Obviously, a lot of good work and good research went into the game, the rule book should reflect this.

I hope these suggestions help to make this good game a better game

RJMI

_____________________________

The only war that matters if you win is for the salvation of your immortal soul. Visit my website at www.JohnTheBaptist.us to learn of the only hope for salvation.

Post #: 1

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 2:52:22 AM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RJMI

To the Game Developers:

More suggestions to make a good game better:

Carriers should not take a loss when their carrier planes take a loss. To prevent this, the carriers should be separated from the carrier planes. Each carrier can carry as many carrier planes as their number or less but no more. If a carrier number drops below the number of carrier planes, then the carrier planes take a loss to equal the number of the carrier. For example, The Hornet Carrier�s number is 8 and thus can carry 8 carrier planes or less but not more than 8. If the Hornet takes a two point lose to 6, then 2 carrier planes are lost also to equal 6 carrier planes.

Carrier plans should also be able to detach from the carrier and go to a land hex if within range. And carrier plans can be reinforced when on land and then fly back to a carrier that is in range provided that carrier has room for it. Carrier plans should also be able to attack from the land base. Also new carrier planes can be built on land and then fly to a carrier in range that needs them.

When carrier planes go on a mission, they alone should take the losses incurred not the Carrier they came from. Carriers should only take loses when hit by fire from an enemy plane or from a ship or sub in a sea battle.

Also carrier planes are too invincible when attacking an enemy flotilla that has many carriers and carrier planes to defend it or ward of the attack. When carrier planes attack an enemy flotilla, carrier planes from the enemy flotilla, if any, should be allowed to attack the incoming planes. If the number of enemy planes is greater than the incoming planes after the air attack is resolved, then the incoming plans should retreat to their carriers without being able to attack the flotilla or maybe some odds chance of some hitting the flotilla could be calculated depending on how many more enemy carrier plans there are than the incoming planes. Retreated carrier plans should not be allowed to attack again in the same turn.

Maybe you could have only the enemy carrier planes that did not fly a mission on the previous turn intercept the incoming carrier planes. But then you would have to have a way of only sending some of the carrier planes on carrier on a mission while holding back others for defence. I do not know what this would do to the game or how hard it would be to make it work.

There also seems to be an imbalance of Japan�s carriers as they multiply almost as fast as they are destroyed. I do not know if this was the case historically. The AI does not exploit this but a human player could and would overwhelm the Allies because of the great imbalance. For instance, the allies could have 7 carriers to Japan�s 22 carriers.

Also, a better rule book explaining all the rulers is needed or some will get discouraged from playing the game and others will not realize the good rules that are part of the game. Obviously, a lot of good work and good research went into the game, the rule book should reflect this.

I hope these suggestions help to make this good game a better game

RJMI

Hi RJMI again thanks for your great ideas but I think you live in lala land

did you not learn anything from your first post, THEY DONT CARE HERE, THEY DONT CARE HERE etc. etc. etc. They will not implement any of your suggestions the game is done nada no more changes nothing, because if they were they would at least answer you postive or negative and as for the posters here they are like the three monkees see nothing hear nothing say nothing

Its the way it is here and if you do another post like this one I will personally come through the internet and destroy your keyboard

do yourself a favor and forget this place and as soon as Rising Sun comes out thats it for me I will mentally close this so called forum down and go to a forum where people care like MWIF.

Bo

(in reply to RJMI)

Post #: 2

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 10:57:37 AM

Romdanzer

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/27/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

Hi RJMI again thanks for your great ideas but I think you live in lala land did you not learn anything from your first post, THEY DONT CARE HERE, THEY DONT CARE HERE etc. etc. etc. They will not implement any of your suggestions the game is done nada no more changes nothing, because if they were they would at least answer you postive or negative and as for the posters here they are like the three monkees see nothing hear nothing say nothing Its the way it is here and if you do another post like this one I will personally come through the internet and destroy your keyboard do yourself a favor and forget this place and as soon as Rising Sun comes out thats it for me I will mentally close this so called forum down and go to a forum where people care like MWIF.

Hi Bo - I have read this post and some others along these lines that you have made and I have to say that I understand your pain. You obviously do care some for this game otherwise you wouldn't be posting all this much. However I hope you do realize that Time of Wrath (ToW) as well as Storm over the Pacific (SoP) are actually "only" precursors to the actual big game Wastelands Interactive (WI) has been planning and working on since the very start of this group - "Bitter Glory" (BG)!!

In this respect ToW and SoP where also made by them to gain expierience in game programming and everything that is related to it as well as have some cash flow in some form to support them in the time before BG comes out. We all have to pay bills after all. So this is ok. This meant though that the underlying game engine of ToW and SoP was not made by them , but licensed or otherwise taken from another game. This underyling game engine has some quite fundamental restrictions which are very difficult to change. All posts that address issues therefore which come about because of this underlying game engine, while very welcome and good - are next to impossible to implement....

However the big grail of WI is still and has always been BG. The improvements needed by ToW and SoP which cannot be implemented because of the above reason are the things which will be addressed by BG due it being fundamentally different as everything, including it's engine is being programmed by WI.

For more info see of course:

http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com/

And read all the dev diary's to Bitter Glory.

Wastelands Interactive had a dedicated Bitter Glory Website but this was redirected recently due to Bitter Glory coming into the endstages of it's development:

http://bitterglory.com

Now with respect to MWIF - yes it has much more number of posts in it's Forum, but that is mainly because WiF as a World-Wide already existing board game over many years has a fundamentally much broader base of people who know about it; and from these then those who are interested then search and find that forum. Of these then those who are motivated enough to post, although the computer game is still in development for some time to come, are even less still. But in the end that amount is much larger than those for BG simply because the starting base of people world-wide who know about BG is much smaller. And going through the same process hence the amount of people who post much less...

That doesn't make BG any less interesting in my eyes..... I know a lot about MWIF myself being a very avid boardgaming fan and having read that forum for some years before I heard of BG. And although yes much less posts are in the BG and other WI forums, and yes even though WiF is not a bad game, still BG is a much more attractive Game from all gaming aspects in my eyes than MWIF. That's why I am here. And you will read my posts in the BG forum and elsewhere. That's why I am helping WI where I can, buying the games to financially support them, making counter mods as good as I can with my abilities (Which they thankfullly included in the ToW 1.8 patch for example), making posts to keep the BG Forum going etc... because I want to see BG come out with all my gaming heart.

Everyone is entitled to their oppinon, and so are you. But from my job as an Aerospace Engineer I know that it is not very smart to try to motivate people for a cause by constantly criticising them...

Understanding the situation (The WI, BG, ToW and SoP Fan-group is just much smaller resulting in correspondingly smaller Forum movements) and being positive is a much smarter course of action IMHO.

Romdanzer

< Message edited by Romdanzer -- 10/1/2010 11:04:20 AM >

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 3

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 12:00:33 PM

Anraz

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
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Thanks Romdanzer, as always, I appreciate your involvement.

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Post #: 4

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 1:44:03 PM

vonRocko

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline

Thanks Romdanzer,So you're saying, and anraz agrees, tow and sop are practice for the Real game, Bitter Glory? In that case, I'll be expecting a check from wasteland for testing their programs! But why would anyone consider buying "Bitter Glory" when these games aren't right? I seriously doubt Wasteland is capable of delivering a good global war game. After two games that "Could" have been great, I won't get fooled again.
Thank you.
wasteland could have told me they were just experimenting at game making, then I could have passed by these amateurs.

< Message edited by vonRocko -- 10/1/2010 1:52:16 PM >

(in reply to Anraz)

Post #: 5

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 2:02:30 PM

cpdeyoung

Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline

The development effort that went into these two games should convince anyone that these were major projects for Wasteland. They are certainly active in these forums, which I find full of interested gamers who really like these games. "Road to Victory" was a "great" game for me, and I have enjoyed every iteration since.

Every game company has a "next game" in development. That is completely normal. These two games are great fun, and many, many of us would have been sadder if they were not here!

Bring on BG, but long live ToW and SotP! More fun than any other games I have played.

Chuck

(in reply to vonRocko)

Post #: 6

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 4:06:25 PM

Anraz

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
So you're saying, and anraz agrees, tow and sop are practice for the Real game, Bitter Glory?

More or less like night manoeuvres in desert are practice for day combat in urban area ;) [2D turn based games vs a 3D real time game...]

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Post #: 7

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 4:54:40 PM

Romdanzer

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/27/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

So you're saying, and anraz agrees, tow and sop are practice for the Real game, Bitter Glory?

ToW and SoP are major projects for Wastelands Interactive and are good serious games with planned successors just like with many other gaming companies out there...

.... HoI, HoI2 and HoI3 ... is just the most famous of examples in this respect. In Hindsight with now at the HoI3 level would you call HoI a practice game or a logically prequel for further on-going development?

Indeed every big complex software system requires development time over many years. And one tool to work with is delivering successively more complex versions to the public ... Windows 7 is a successor in a long line of Windows programs from the very first Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.... would you now with 2010 hindsight knowledge call Windows 95 a practice Operating System?... game programs are no different.

I agree with cpdeyoung here completely

Romdanzer

< Message edited by Romdanzer -- 10/1/2010 4:56:27 PM >

(in reply to Anraz)

Post #: 8

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 8:29:06 PM

DampSquib

Posts: 425
Joined: 3/8/2010
From: UK
Status: offline

Will Bitter Glory get a Forum soon then....?????

(in reply to Romdanzer)

Post #: 9

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 8:55:13 PM

Lrfss

Posts: 349
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Spring, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DampSquib

Will Bitter Glory get a Forum soon then....?????

Yeah, good idea...let's have a BG Forum soon/now please

All the best of the games go through stages! Look at WitP-AE, heck it started as UV then WitP to finally WitP-AE which is clearly the top notch of all hardcore PC wargames ever! I don't regret buying each and every version along the way either! Now if we could just combine the sweet graphics and music of this series/style with the extreme details of WitP-AE and add in the entire era/theatre of WWII.... We would never sleep, eat, get into trouble with women or spend too much money otherwise...LOL! Course it would probably be illegal to make a game of this nature

I consider myself hardcore, though was surprised to find that I very much enjoy ToW and took a break from WitP-AE

Thinking of picking up SotP now as well. Hope I can keep my day job at this rate, already got rid of a wife...

(in reply to DampSquib)

Post #: 10

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 9:14:23 PM

Anraz

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

So far there is a single topic about Bitter Glory in "general discussion": http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1873656&mpage=1&key=bitter%2Cglory

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Post #: 11

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 9:28:37 PM

doomtrader

Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline

Generally I like many of RJMI's ideas. Some of them might be implemented in long run.

Currently for the next patch we are preparing a major improvement for PBEM games. Now players will have got possibility to automate events and speed up the play. More info will be available soon.

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Post #: 12

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 9:38:54 PM

Lrfss

Posts: 349
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Spring, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

So far there is a single topic about Bitter Glory in "general discussion": http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1873656&mpage=1&key=bitter%2Cglory

Cool, thanks! just checked it out.... Gonna have to buy that one for sure! Is that gonna be like a year or two? Need to start saving my pennies now

(in reply to Anraz)

Post #: 13

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 9:57:02 PM

Anraz

Posts: 785
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Is that gonna be like a year or two?

A year or so.

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Post #: 14

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/1/2010 10:26:52 PM

Tomokatu

Posts: 488
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline

quote:

2D turn based games vs a 3D real time game...

3D real-time?
You've already lost me.
I'm not some twitchy-fingered adolescent with puddles of excess testosterone, hopped up on caffeine drinks.
I prefer to PLAN a move and then see how well the execution plays out. Particularly in a gameturn representing a week where in real life a staff of dozens takes twelve hours to plan an operation that takes three days to execute. That I can do in a twenty-minute turn and that's enough time compression to put pressure on me, the player.
Maybe if Wastelands sets up a multiple player game where all players (including the AI) plot their moves and all execution is simultaneous, but twitch-and-click does NOTHING for my enjoyment levels.

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For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction

(in reply to Anraz)

Post #: 15

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/2/2010 12:07:50 AM

Romdanzer

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/27/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

Well no wait Tomokatu maybe you are misunderstanding something here - BG is not intended to be a

quote:

twitch-and-click

game.

The time system used in BG is the same as in the HoI system - real time pausable with variable speeds of time that, when unpaused, can be adjusted to whatever you like, from very slow to very fast according to the situation.

The 3D part is just the way the "world" or "Board" is viewed. i.e. it is not 2-D with an isometric 3D view as with ToW and SoP "Normal" Maps, but simply where the 3D view angle can be varied.

So saying BG is a "3D real time game" is really a misnomer. It's more like a "3D view pausable & variable real time" game if you so like.

Romdanzer

< Message edited by Romdanzer -- 10/2/2010 12:09:53 AM >

(in reply to Tomokatu)

Post #: 16

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/2/2010 2:53:38 AM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
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Romdanzer I totally agree with everything you said about me, yes I care about the game, yes you get more from being positive then negative, but you have to know me better I am not mean to anyone unless they get real sarcastic, I hammered this server and its posters to get something going here on RJMI hard thoughtful comments and guess what even Doomtrader and Arnaz woke up finally and put there two cents in ABOUT TIME! I said it before and I will say it again as soon as this new patch comes out with Rising Sun in it I am through here Kaput with Wastelands and I believe something gets lost here between translations from English to Polish and vice versa. Not a dig but a gut feeling. I happened to throw in MWIF forums for no major reason other than at least they converse with each other on their forums. And as far as critcism, I did it to get the people talking about the game and not just read posts and have nothing to say one way or the other, so again your post is right on congratulations on getting everything right.

(in reply to RJMI)

Post #: 17

RE: More ideas on how to make a good game better - 10/2/2010 8:07:57 PM

RJMI

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/21/2004
Status: offline

To the Game Developers:

Your plan for a future game, Bitter Glory, is good and the normal course of game improvement.

But it would be a mistake, I believe, to make it a real time game. That is what ruins Hearts of Iron from most people. Real time games of that size that are also strategic do not work. Too many things happening to attend to properly without pausing every minute. And it can only be played with human opponents when all are present and thus playing it at the same time. That is impossible for most people.

That is the main reason I got SOP because it was playable by email and gives one time to think out his strategy before acting. If you make Bitter Glory this way, it would be very popular and playable by many people. You can copy many of the same things HOI has but with PBEM playable and not real time.

RJMI

_____________________________

The only war that matters if you win is for the salvation of your immortal soul. Visit my website at www.JohnTheBaptist.us to learn of the only hope for salvation.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 18