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Books On The War In The Pacific - 8/18/2002 4:22:21 PM   
mark24

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 8/4/2002
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I'm currently scanning Amazon for a good, DETAILED, book on the war in the Pacific. The whole shabang 41-45 (Or '37 to '45 to inc the Chinese). Price no object.

Any recommendations?

My previous military reading has a Germany first bias. Time to rectify that, methinks :)

This game has really fired my interest in the Pac War!

Mark
Post #: 1
- 8/18/2002 4:42:26 PM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline 		Try this.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22160

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Post #: 2
- 8/18/2002 5:15:29 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline 		Try 'The Big E' Edward P. Stafford if you can find it. I bought it 25 years ago already and I think it was written in 1962.
It's the story of Enterprise through the war so it covers all the carrier battles in this area except Coral Sea.
It's Ballantine Books and SBN number 345-23659-9-195 and Library of Congress number 62-17168. Hope that helps.

Regards
BPRE

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Post #: 3
- 8/18/2002 5:49:44 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by BPRE
[B]Try 'The Big E' Edward P. Stafford if you can find it. I bought it 25 years ago already and I think it was written in 1962.
It's the story of Enterprise through the war so it covers all the carrier battles in this area except Coral Sea.
It's Ballantine Books and SBN number 345-23659-9-195 and Library of Congress number 62-17168. Hope that helps.

Regards
BPRE [/B][/QUOTE]It's just been reissued by Naval Institute Books (Bluejacket Books), ISBN 1-55750-998-0

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- 8/18/2002 8:00:43 PM   
John Carney

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Tampa FL
Status: offline 		For an American look John Costello "The Pacific War 1941-1945"
A pretty standard American view, but very well written.

For a more European view, with both theaters Robert Leckie "Delivered from Evil". A good look at the inner department and Country rivalries that effect the war conduct and production.

A good British view point James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi "Victory at Sea" (WWII in the Pacific).

Great thing about long deterent patroles is time to read. For those bubble heads "War Beneth the Sea" by Peter Padfield is great reading.

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Post #: 5
- 8/18/2002 9:53:56 PM   
ATENTOKO

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 8/14/2002
From: las palmas
Status: offline 		Hello Mark,

Look also the web of OSPREY. Quite a lot of military subjects and very good the CAMPAIGN SERIES.

By by
ATENTOKO

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Post #: 6
- 8/18/2002 11:26:03 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Morrison's "History of US Naval Operations in WWII" has been reprinted. It covers everything. Don't know how it compares to the others in detail but is reads really well. I picked it up at Costco for a good price.

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Post #: 7
- 8/19/2002 7:02:31 AM   
Matt Erickson

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 8/3/2002
From: santa barbra, calif
Status: offline 		I found a bizarre book the 'us naval ins press' on the war in the pacific not much on text but it has got maps galore in it:D cant remember where i stowed it away:(

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Post #: 8
- 8/19/2002 3:29:38 PM   
mark24

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 8/4/2002
Status: offline 		Thanks for your time & input, folks.

Mark

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Post #: 9
The Fall of Japan - 8/19/2002 8:22:30 PM   
dtx

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		A book much more interesting than its staid title is: The Fall of Japan. It delves into great depth the Japanese view of the war and in doing so, strongly refutes the history reconstructists who claim that Japan was ready to surrender and the atomic bombs weren't needed. For example, after the bombs were dropped and the Emperor was planning to surrender a group of young military officers attempted a coup so that Japan would continue the war.

Another aspect of the war that the book brought to light was the infighting amongst the Jap armed forces. E.g., The navy would try to sabotage manufacting at Army-related and Air force facilities and these armed services did the same to each other and the navy.

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Post #: 10
- 8/19/2002 10:47:21 PM   
rdcotton

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Status: offline 		I'd like to second the "Costello" recommendation. I'm currently
reading that one myself. It is a fairly easy read and covers the
entire WiP in one volume (although not in excruciating detail).
I'm up to the Battle of Midway and have enjoyed it up to this point.

Anyway ... just an opinion.

Ray

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Post #: 11
Re: The Fall of Japan - 8/19/2002 11:07:10 PM   
chrisp

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Wichita, KS
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dtx
[B]A book much more interesting than its staid title is: The Fall of Japan[/B][/QUOTE]

Along the same lines is Frank's Downfall (the same guy who wrote the Guadalcanal book). Frank concentrates not only on what was happening, but on what Magic intercepts Truman was seeing -- in other words, what he knew of the situation. There is a long discussion of casualty estimates, how they were arrived at, and how they were "spun" (Marshall seems to have purposely underestimated the numbers for some reason). Frank is also aware of the difference between "casualty" and "killed."

The book generally concludes that Japan had collapsed by August 1945 and was facing widespread starvation (as witnessed by the massive amounts of food that had to be shipped to Japan after the surrender). However (and this is an important point that some people can't seem to comprehend), "collapse" is not the same as "surrender." The reaction of the Japanese military to Hiroshima was basically "so what?"

An excellent read.

Chris P.

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Post #: 12
- 8/20/2002 12:15:58 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		Thank you for all these suggestions :)

I just added all these books to the book section of the UV Fansite. BTW, I also used some of your comments - if you want them to be removed, please send me a mail (or a PM) and I will remove them.

Thanks

Spooky

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Post #: 13
- 8/20/2002 12:34:26 AM   
zed

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]Morrison's "History of US Naval Operations in WWII" has been reprinted. It covers everything. Don't know how it compares to the others in detail but is reads really well. I picked it up at Costco for a good price. [/B][/QUOTE]

The maps and ship listings on each engagement are fantastic. At $12 a piece they are a good buy. My favorite is "BREAKING THE BISMARK BARRIER"

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Post #: 14
- 8/20/2002 12:42:04 AM   
chrisp

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Wichita, KS
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]Morrison's "History of US Naval Operations in WWII" has been reprinted. It covers everything. Don't know how it compares to the others in detail but is reads really well. I picked it up at Costco for a good price. [/B][/QUOTE]

While Morrison is an extremely interesting and valuable source, it is dated. He did not know of the code-breaking efforts and so could not give an accurate picture of some of the operations. Similarly, I don't think he used Japanese sources much.

ChrisP.

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Post #: 15
- 8/20/2002 12:57:43 AM   
chrisp

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Wichita, KS
Status: offline 		And as long as I'm at it: the best three books I've ever read on the Pacific theater:

With the Old Breed at Pelilieu and Okinawa - E. B. Sledge
I think this book has already been mentioned. Sledge was a young Marine mortarman during these two campaigns.

Goodbye, Darkness - W. Manchester
An intensely personal account of the author's experiences in the Pacific (he was wounded at Okinawa). Manchester intersperses his own experience with visits to the major battlefields.

Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atom Bomb - G. Feifer
One of the most affecting books I've ever read. It details the battle of Okinawa from the perspective of the U.S., the Japanese, and the Okinawans (150,000 of whom died during the battle; their culture was virtually destroyed). The story of a battle beyond hell.

I don't think you'll ever be the same after reading these three books. Too much of the literature of war has been sugar-coated. I wouldn't classify these as anti-war books per sec. True "anti-war" literature is incredibly simplistic: war is bad. Duh! Rather, these are unflinching descriptions of what war is.

Chris P.

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Post #: 16
- 8/20/2002 1:12:46 AM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by chrisp
[B] True "anti-war" literature is incredibly simplistic: war is bad. Duh! Rather, these are unflinching descriptions of what war is.

Chris P. [/B][/QUOTE]

Some people can come out of combat seemingly without scars, others never recover from the horror. James Jones says that whatever horror he saw in Guadalcanal was dwarfed by coming back to the states on a hospital ship. The broken bodies that never would be the same. Young men whose lives were broken and ended by war. France during ww1 sent all the disfigured and maimed to towns off by themselves so the populace would not lose heart.

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Post #: 17
- 8/20/2002 1:17:44 AM   
chrisp

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Wichita, KS
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by corbulo
[B]

Some people can come out of combat seemingly without scars, others never recover from the horror. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sledge (who went on to become, I believe, a university professor of entomology - bugs) says he wrote Old Breed in 1981 to end the nightmares. Manchester, in his first chapter, talks of sitting back in his airline seat and remembering the first man he killed.

Chris P.

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Post #: 18
Collapse vs. surrender - 8/20/2002 2:41:55 AM   
dtx

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Chris P. - Thanks for the interesting distinction between Jap being ready to "collapse" vs. "surrender." A Japanese guy I used to work with who was alive during the war noted to me that the Japanese pysche needed something like the a-bomb in order for them to admit to defeat. Their country was being burned to the ground with conventional bombs, their navy and merchant marine sunk, and their air force, ineffective - yet the military wanted to fight on. His was very much an old generation mentality not held by those born after the war.

I think we would have less wars if people really knew how horrific they were. As a supplement to Saving Private Ryan, Steven Spielberg, whose dad was a B-25 pilot in the Pacific, said he did the movie both as a tribute to soldiers and to show how horrible war really is. - dtx

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Post #: 19
Re: Collapse vs. surrender - 8/20/2002 3:18:42 AM   
chrisp

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Wichita, KS
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dtx
[B]Chris P. - Thanks for the interesting distinction between Jap being ready to "collapse" vs. "surrender." A Japanese guy I used to work with who was alive during the war noted to me that the Japanese pysche needed something like the a-bomb in order for them to admit to defeat[/B][/QUOTE]

My father, on the other hand, was in one of the divisions that set out to invade Japan in Nov. 1945. He got the news of the surrender on the boat and served in the occupation force. How much difference one year made at that time!

The Japanese military was prepared for national suicide. They fully intended to kill as many Americans as possible while dying in the process. They intended that civilians do the same. After the second bomb, the Emperor could claim that that tactic would no longer be viable -- that the Americans could destory the Japanese without dying themselves.

Ultimately, the decision to surrender belonged to Hirohito, a figure I still don't understand.

Chris P.

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Post #: 20
- 8/20/2002 8:45:09 AM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Carney
[B]
A good British view point James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi "Victory at Sea" (WWII in the Pacific). [/B][/QUOTE]

I haven't read the book, but for the record, Jim was born north of NYC and moved to the City after high school. I'm pretty certain that Al lived most of his life in NYC as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chrisp
[B]

While Morison is an extremely interesting and valuable source, it is dated. He did not know of the code-breaking efforts and so could not give an accurate picture of some of the operations. Similarly, I don't think he used Japanese sources much.
[/B][/QUOTE]

To supplement Morison, I suggest reading "Combined Fleet Decoded" by John Prados. Using declassified material as well as primary sources from the various archives in the DC area, he writes a very readable story about the intelligence in the Pacific ... ranging from traffic analysis to code-breaking.

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Post #: 21
- 8/20/2002 8:47:19 AM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline 		[deleted since it was a duplicate message GAH]

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Post #: 22
- 8/20/2002 7:09:32 PM   
John Carney

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Tampa FL
Status: offline 		Yes, it is dated. The British view point is not from the writers but from the sources that they used. The British released a large volume of information, which appears in the book. They seem to have drawn their conclusions from these sources rather than the party line the US Navy was putting out. I felt it was a more neutral view. Like reading a European book on our Civil War.

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Post #: 23
- 8/20/2002 9:32:41 PM   
corbulo

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: rigel 5
Status: offline 		Morison wrote the books in 1949, so they are dated and dont have the code breaking. He seemed to have access to Japanese information, because he always states what the japanese were doing during the battle and what the IJN reported their loses as. I have not found more detailed maps of our game area than in his books, nor the references to IJN ships and commanders. He does not give IJA unit numbers and this is frustrating. I think "BREAKING THE BISMARKS BARRIER" could well be used as a manual for the allied player as to how to win this game. (that is what I am using it for)

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Post #: 24
- 8/21/2002 7:51:12 AM   
krishub1492


Posts: 192
Joined: 1/28/2002
From:
Status: offline 		Looking to the future, check this out from Amazon. Hopefully it will be ready about the time WITP is ready. Should be good. Schom wrote an excellent book about the Trafalger campaign.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393049248/qid=1029890843/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-3039408-5532934

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Post #: 25
- 8/21/2002 8:54:50 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Carney
[B]For a more European view, with both theaters Robert Leckie "Delivered from Evil". A good look at the inner department and Country rivalries that effect the war conduct and production.
[/B][/QUOTE]
"Delivered from Evil" wasn't too bad of a book, just be aware that it contained some errors. It's been over 7 years since I've read it and I don't remember most of them, but one error I recall was about "Betty bombers attacking the ships in Pearl Harbor" during 7 Dec. The other hangup I had with it (the '87 edition) was not enough maps.

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Post #: 26
- 8/21/2002 8:04:43 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Morrison may not have the background information as he was too recent to the events he described(he was actually there in some of them), but he sure describes the battles and how the operations occurred. And he did use Japanese sources: interviews with actual particicpants. Morrison updated his information in the mid-fifties and is good for an overall view of the naval war.

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Post #: 27
Quick reference source - 8/22/2002 2:36:22 AM   
SWODOG

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 5/9/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		I have found that "The Pacific War Enyclopedia" by James F. Dunnigan and Albert A. Nofi is an excellent reference source for many aspects of UV. It provides some excellent aircraft and ship references as well as time lines and maps ( maps are small ). It was published in 1998 by Checkmark Books and I purchased it at Barnes and Noble for $24.95. I consider this to be a must have when I'm playing and it also makes for good reading on the john...

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Post #: 28
- 8/23/2002 12:28:24 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Carney
[B]For an American look John Costello "The Pacific War 1941-1945"
A pretty standard American view, but very well written.

For a more European view, with both theaters Robert Leckie "Delivered from Evil". A good look at the inner department and Country rivalries that effect the war conduct and production.

A good British view point James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi "Victory at Sea" (WWII in the Pacific).

Great thing about long deterent patroles is time to read. For those bubble heads "War Beneth the Sea" by Peter Padfield is great reading. [/B][/QUOTE]

I just finished Costello and would generally concur with your acessment. He struck me as being fairly objective throughout, especially in the pre-war analysis of the motivations of the three main parties but does take on more of an American angle as the war progressed vis-a-vis British motivations in the theatre.

What i liked most about it was his pointing out several key forks in the roads during several crucial battles that are nominally considered "cant lose" situations for the Allies, particularily the invasion of Bouiniaville and the IGO Burma offensive. It was enlightening and scary at the same time to realize that those battles could have easily gone the other way had a few small circumstances been changed.

The only real marr for the book is that it is filled with a moderate level of minor but annoying errors (mainly in regards to matching events with ship names and such) which can be used as detracting points in a debate.

A good read, particularily again, in the political/origins of war sections.

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Post #: 29
The worst book on WWII & military history - 8/23/2002 1:38:37 AM   
dtx

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Slightly Off topic - but the book was so bad I feel inclined to mention it so you avoid wasting money - Days of Infamy: Military Blunders of the 20th Century (renamed in paperback as Military Blunders-probably to avoid the scathing reviews).

It's likely the most error filled military book you will ever find (it even gets the numbers of carriers sunk at the Coral Sea and Midway wrong.) Apparently the author, M Coffey, is an Irish poet and he does an excellent job of showing his complete ignorance about military matters. Why a quality channel like the History Channel associated itself with such hokum, I'll never understand.
In many ways, Coffey is the antithesis of J Dunnigan.

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