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Wow...! - 10/26/2010 5:40:50 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Ok after a couple of beers yesterday I decided there has to be another strategy game in my life besides witp AE.

Since I was a long time MOO2 fan and even owned the most confusing and errand attempt at 4x, MOO3, afterwards always
doubted there will be anthing only remotely matching the atmosphere of the first games of the series, buying DW was the obvious choice.
More so after reading a bit in this forum and getting a picture how deep it really is.

I must say that I´m very impressed! Right now I am clicking around wondering what the hell I am doing but thats the way I like it.
Great work devs, this is a real gem. And from the looks the support for this piece of art is not a second behind the game itself.

I will read the manual in time, but for now I enjoy looking through all the options, attempting to see what I can find out by myself.

So in any case, just want to express my gratitude that there is still grand strategy in space and if there is anybody here who could give some really really basic initial
hints how to best approach this monster (yes, yes I know, RTFM ) it is always aprechiated.


And, for anybody here who plays AE too, when launching this game for the first time you guys accustomed to the "calculating supply requirements" and "moving oil/resources" messages will lie on the floor, laughing.
"Emptying black holes" Muahahaha...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 10/26/2010 5:41:06 PM >

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RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 7:15:32 PM   
lordxorn


Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
Status: offline 		Welcome to the grand world of DW, you are doing the right thing in jumping right in. Of course make sure you have the latest update, and make sure you utilize the colony and resource managers. They are your friends. I also recommend setting almost all the AI functions to off, because sometimes it builds too much, or wants to attack more than you should. At least set the strategic to suggest.

Otherwise welcome, and if you have any specific questions don't hesitate to ask.

PS-There is also an expansion planned for DW, so exciting things to come.

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Post #: 2
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 8:06:45 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Thanks for the welcome and hints loxdorn. I set all AI functions to suggest, currently I am drifting along at 0.25 speed and try to get a grasp
for the basic features.

Two specific question already:

- So the civilian part of the population runs my economy right? It was stated in the turorial
that a method of getting money is to build freighters and selling them.
Do I have to build them myself or does the population order them built in case they are needed?

- I read a long while ago that pirates learn from battles with the empire fleet.
Currently there is a mining station under attack and I was planning to send a recently found cruiser (was abandoned in space)
there to get rid of them. I did not have time to investigate the ship in detail but I recon it has higher performance and more advanced tech
than my current science level.
Is it a mistake to use advanced weaponry against pirates, effectively making them stronger or are there no such negative effects?

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Post #: 3
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 8:11:52 PM   
ZeroSum

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

I also recommend setting almost all the AI functions to off, because sometimes it builds too much, or wants to attack more than you should. At least set the strategic to suggest.



I think I might want to give the game a go without so much AI automation. Which AI functions do you reccomend?

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Post #: 4
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 9:41:59 PM   
Cosian

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/22/2006
Status: offline 		The civies take care of ordering and operating frieghters, passenger ships, mining ships etc.... You don't have to mess with this it all. Your job is to make sure they can operate as smoothly as possible. You do this by:

Keeping your resource producing colonies and mining stations secure
Ensuring that you have setup mining stations at desirable resource locations
Having ample refueling points setup with mining stations
Setting up cost efficient designs for the civy ships
Etc.....

Relative to pirates using your tech ... I have not found this to be a problem. Just get in there and destroy them. :) I have found it cost effective to perhaps pay for security one time to the pirates that attack you first. By the time this pact runs out, you should have enough military ships built to deal with pirates from that point forward. A DD and a couple frigs seems plenty to deal with random pirate attacks.

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Post #: 5
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 9:50:55 PM   
Cosian

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 9/22/2006
Status: offline 		I let the AI handle taxes and agents and suggest everything else.

Relative to ships, I let my Scouts autoexplore for the most part. I manage my constructor ships using the resource manager. I think you can make better decisions than the AI here.

You don't want it to handle diplomacy. Relative to ship design, some let it handle that too, but I find that spending the time to roll through and update all your designs one time can really help your initial economy. There are some suggestions posted here in the forums. Specifically removing the research facs from Spaceports .... or removing weapons from civy ships ... they have one blaster which isn't going to help much anyway if they get caught by a pirate or spacemonster.

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Post #: 6
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 9:57:38 PM   
lordxorn


Posts: 768
Joined: 12/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thanks for the welcome and hints loxdorn. I set all AI functions to suggest, currently I am drifting along at 0.25 speed and try to get a grasp
for the basic features.

Two specific question already:

- So the civilian part of the population runs my economy right? It was stated in the turorial
that a method of getting money is to build freighters and selling them.
Do I have to build them myself or does the population order them built in case they are needed?


You are correct, Distant Worlds is unique in the fact that is handles the civilian economy as a macro approach. The only way you can influence you economy is to

  • Explore & Expand
  • Protect
  • Upgrade Civilian Ship Design (Faster freighters are more profitable)
  • Taxes
  • Certain Starbase Upgrades like the Hospital




quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
- I read a long while ago that pirates learn from battles with the empire fleet.
Currently there is a mining station under attack and I was planning to send a recently found cruiser (was abandoned in space)
there to get rid of them. I did not have time to investigate the ship in detail but I recon it has higher performance and more advanced tech
than my current science level.
Is it a mistake to use advanced weaponry against pirates, effectively making them stronger or are there no such negative effects?


I believe the pirates can copy your actual design, and not a captured advanced cruiser, with your newly found cruiser and support from a few of your destroyers you should be able to wipe any pirate bases you found. (Some people rightfully feel the captured cruisers are a balance killer) On that token, you should always be exploring with about 4 or 5 scouts.


As far as automation, I have only left the Suggest to Attack enemies which is very helpful because it can sometimes point out an invading fleet you might otherwise miss with manual scanning. Running a war can be hectic trying to keep up with all the activities, and planning your own assaults.

Other than that I manually manage all aspects of my empire.

< Message edited by lordxorn -- 10/26/2010 9:59:14 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Wow...! - 10/26/2010 10:27:24 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		You can play in so many different ways, its all down to personal preference.  I set everything to manual except Ship Design which I leave automated, but many people here enjoy that aspect of the game the most, so as I said, personal preference 

A tip for getting your economy started, you will want to get 1 mine for every strategic resource asap, as for luxury resources, the same applies but these are generally more important, so get them as soon as you find them.  Remember your planets also count as mines for whatever resources are on them.  From here, you can then monitor your supply/demand in the expansion planner to see what you need

Build Spaceports one at a time to begin, because you will notice a huge drop in income due to their maintenance, and build small spaceports to begin with until you have a big rich Empire, there is nothing worse than your economy going well, and all of a sudden you finish construction on 5 spaceports and your economy goes kerplunk!   (Colonies with luxury resources, either on them or being mined in the same system, should be your first priority for Spaceports   Also worth noting Spaceports will build quicker on more populated planets, very low pop planets it can take an age

Welcome to DW mate!


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Post #: 8
RE: Wow...! - 10/27/2010 11:04:44 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Thanks guys!

Sitting at work with the typical symptoms of lenghy exposure to space
(main symptom: extreme tiredness and a blank stare... )

WoodMan, I am one of the people who enjoy this aspect (spent ages in MOO2 to customize
my new vessles).
Thanks for the tip on economy.

In case you leave the construciton ships on automated, will they
try to buikd those mining stations which mine ressources most needed (or lacking in the empire)
or will they simply build everywhere its possible?


lordxorn, re: captured cruiser = balance killer. You say! I found an abandoned station
in company of 2 abandoned cruisers and an abandoned destroyer. scrapped the latter and on of
the cruisers for research and kept the other one.
She ripped apart 4 pirate fleets single handedly already.


Cosian: Thanks! when you say civilians are taking care of ordering frighters, this does mean that they
use up construciton docks while building correct?
Also, in case there is a new shiny freighter design available, will the civ´s upgrade their ships
to this design or will this only affect newly built ships?

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Post #: 9
RE: Wow...! - 10/27/2010 1:45:04 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

In case you leave the construciton ships on automated, will they
try to buikd those mining stations which mine ressources most needed (or lacking in the empire)
or will they simply build everywhere its possible?


We actually tested this once   They are pretty good when controlled by the AI.


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Post #: 10
RE: Wow...! - 10/27/2010 2:43:37 PM   
llanite_slith

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 10/23/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thanks! when you say civilians are taking care of ordering frighters, this does mean that they
use up construciton docks while building correct?


Yes - you can see this by opening the construction queue (the window in the bottom left hand corner)- as you order new ships, you may see them appear behind passenger liners, freighters, etc.

Note - once you stop expanding, your civilian trader fleets will slow down their orders for new space ships - there appears to be a supply/demand curve the civilian AI follows in maintaining some trade volume between worlds.

New trade agreements or other changes will produce more orders for ships - you get a cut of this since the government apparently taxes or licenses interstellar travel.

Oh - and this game is wayyyy cool.

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Post #: 11
RE: Wow...! - 10/27/2010 2:53:07 PM   
llanite_slith

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 10/23/2010
Status: offline 		For construction ships, early game I put them on manual control as they can sometimes get ahead of the demand curve for resources - building expensive mining stations before demand is there and putting you into recession.

After the early game (10+ colonies and some interstellar trade), I typically automate all but one - reserving it for government use:
1. research station construction. I want control of that.
2. Rescuing damaged freighters or military vessels. You don't want your expensive construction ship showing up before the space slug is dead.
3. Strategic refueling stations - sometimes I need to reach out and touch someone with a fleet and need to make sure they can get there.

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Post #: 12
RE: Wow...! - 10/27/2010 9:57:42 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Thank you very much for the answers, already getting a bit of a grip on the basics.

Good hint with the construciton ships Ilanite! I left them on AI and already suspected they are a bit too...well...eager.
Recession eh? Seems the economy model is more complex than thought. Much to learn here.

I guess colonizing planets already owned by splinter groups of your race gets you the advantages you´d expect. Immediate tax increase and a more
developed planet? Found two and I am sure those guys are eager to rejoin my great empire.


Some questions about strategic refueling stations: Do they automatically contain fuel (e.g. hydrongen) for ships or do the traders bring it there first?

Or if I ask in a more general way: are ressources, such as hydrogen, available everywhere in my empire and I just have to own it or is it phaysically present
at every planet and/or station to a certain ammount and distributed by the frighters?
Could I refuel fleets that make the stars disappear at 1 planet even if he has only a fraction of the hydrogen available in my whole empire if that is enough?



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Post #: 13
RE: Wow...! - 10/28/2010 4:03:46 AM   
Aures

 

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline 		No all resources and cargo are physically located, to get from one point to another it has to be transported there. The only abstraction is that when a ship is immediately scrapped or destroyed it vanishes instantly (I guess along with all cargo and crew).

By refueling stations you can mean several things:
A gas mining station located somewhere that has caslon or hydrogren as a resource
a refueling ship
any colony, star base etc with a decent stock of fuel

If a system contains a refueling point it will ave a symbol that looks like a box with several lines through it. The only way fuel gets anywhere is that it is mined and then physically transported to its destination. Same with every other kind of cargo (including material construction ships use to build things). Repairing ships with damaged components does not require cargo though.

Recessions I guess are when your private economy expense is greater than its income. I have never even gotten close to such a situation and I generally consider every mining station to make a profit for the private economy. But if you make every freighter, passenger ship and base cost a ridiculous amount then it is possible for them to cost more money than they make and the private economy will lose money. That is probably bad.

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Post #: 14
RE: Wow...! - 10/28/2010 9:54:16 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Good explanation Aures. Thank you!

And I agree that it seems very hard to get the private economy in the reds, quite contrary to the governement I might say.

The ressource part is the one that is still a bit of a maze for me. Any suggestions how to keep the overview on
your economy ressourcewise? Are there alternatives to the obvious like expansion planner?
How do you keep your overview on which ressources are needed most, are critical for the future and are just nice to have?


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Post #: 15
RE: Wow...! - 10/28/2010 10:23:02 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Strategic, you need them all if possible!

Luxury, each of your colonies needs a regular supply of 10 luxury resources to achieve its potential.

Loros Fruit/Korabbian Spice/Zentabia Fluid - You really want these, badly

Overall, managing resources in DW is quite simple, only if you have a huge Empire with tons of planets you might struggle, due to the game settings I use my Empires are usually small (under 30 planets) and I find just making sure you have at least 1 of every strategic and 1 of every luxury you manage to find is enough, but you will always have more due to your colonies acting as mines themselves.

If you find a particular resource has a high cost in the expansion planner (for strategic higher than 1, for luxury higher than 4) maybe you should build another mine (for strategic, the higher the cost, the higher your maintenance and build costs for ships that use the resource in their construction).

Obviously if you have a resource that has a much higher empire demand than stock, you should try and get another mine for that too


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Post #: 16
RE: Wow...! - 10/28/2010 11:43:35 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Thanks again WoodMan.

A quick follow up: I guess empires could trade ressources.
Is there another way than one-time trades for a fixed ammount of money?
(for example similar to the trade agreements in civilization?)

The options on diplomacy seem a bit lacking on first glance, or do I miss something here?
(and yes I guess I miss something here, because what sense would the colour coded
diplomatic relations make otherwise).
Still, when I contact an empire (admittedly only did it once up to now) I only seem
to have one time trade options or swap this tech for that.

How do I enact a trade agreement that is valid over a certain ammount of time?
Do I need a special tech or a certain diplomatic standing?



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Post #: 17
RE: Wow...! - 10/28/2010 3:38:04 PM   
Aures

 

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline 		You trade resources automatically with other empires. Try looking in the cargo tab of a colony some time, you will probably find certain resources listed more than once with different flags against them. Any that don't have your flag are resources purchased from another empire. Check the main diplomacy screen, the amounts listed next to each empire tell you how much trade you are doing. Click on another empire to see how much trade they are doing (at least with the empires you both know about).

The way you enact a trade agreement for a certain amount of time is you sign a free trade agreement at some point and then cancel it later .

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Post #: 18
RE: Wow...! - 10/29/2010 6:52:46 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Like LoBaron, I'm a recent immigrant from WitP AE. Using the automation default setting seems to work pretty well. That means I control diplomacy and which ships get built, but the AI gets to figure out what to do with them (other than the fleets - those I keep on a tight leash). The AI makes some questionable decisions but for the most part nothing extremely stupid. Just think of it as the usual ineffiency of large organizations - plus it helps to balance out the natural advantage of a human playing against the AI.

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Post #: 19
RE: Wow...! - 10/30/2010 9:48:10 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Hey Kull, nice to see you over here.
You will be in this game very fast.

Already am convinced this game will remain on my HD for a long time.

RE: AI: The hints I got in this thread are very valuable. I currently have AI turned off on every vitable part.
I leave it on for exploration (except for 1) and 1 construction ship, the rest is currently under direct command of Great Eternal Emperor LoBaron.
The automated options will be great when my empire gets too large though.

I think this is the way to go until you have a bit more subtle settings for AI.
What would be amazing was an option to limit AI actions to a system only. So: set a construction ship to AI but it does not build anything out of the system its currently
located in.

All in all I really have to compliment in the GUI! Great work. Very accessable, easy to understand, thoughfully interlinked. Thats how it should look like!
Escept for the fonts, but I think this has been stated often enough anyway.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 10/30/2010 9:53:17 AM >

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RE: Wow...! - 10/30/2010 1:12:35 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		What is WitP AE?

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Post #: 21
RE: Wow...! - 10/30/2010 2:03:30 PM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

What is WitP AE?


War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It looks like a massively complex game that I would love to play if only I weren't terrified of it.

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Post #: 22
RE: Wow...! - 10/31/2010 11:27:40 AM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		Go on.........you know you want to

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Post #: 23
RE: Wow...! - 10/31/2010 1:11:24 PM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		No.... No I can't. I just don't have the time. Maybe one day.

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Post #: 24
RE: Wow...! - 10/31/2010 7:41:20 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Hey Kull, nice to see you over here.
You will be in this game very fast.

Already am convinced this game will remain on my HD for a long time.


Agreed. DW is a LOT of fun, and a nice change-of-pace from AE. I do rely on the AI a lot more than in WitP, and it's not really that terrible. Offloading minor tasks to the AI (like escorting and construction) allows you to build an empire in this game VERY quickly (within a real-time week), so it does move along nicely!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It looks like a massively complex game that I would love to play if only I weren't terrified of it.


It's definitely worthy of consideration. As for the "terror" aspect, some players have developed tutorials to help newbies get started, including a spreadsheet I created to assist the Allied player. One example of why it's helpful; "a spreadsheet that will help Allied players complete the nightmarish "Day 2 turn" - if not quickly, at least much faster than would normally be the case. There are roughly 4589 individual Bases (876), LCUs (1186), Ships (1430), Air Groups (376), and Industry elements (721), all of which can potentially be adjusted in the course of the Day 2 turn. Needless to say, that is a daunting prospect. So what this spreadsheet offers is a set of instructions for EVERY one of those 4589 individual elements."

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Post #: 25
RE: Wow...! - 10/31/2010 8:42:35 PM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

It's definitely worthy of consideration. As for the "terror" aspect, some players have developed tutorials to help newbies get started, including a spreadsheet I created to assist the Allied player. One example of why it's helpful; "a spreadsheet that will help Allied players complete the nightmarish "Day 2 turn" - if not quickly, at least much faster than would normally be the case. There are roughly 4589 individual Bases (876), LCUs (1186), Ships (1430), Air Groups (376), and Industry elements (721), all of which can potentially be adjusted in the course of the Day 2 turn. Needless to say, that is a daunting prospect. So what this spreadsheet offers is a set of instructions for EVERY one of those 4589 individual elements."


Yikes! It does sound like an excellent game. Like I say, it's the time involved that puts me off for now. I can't spend any more time playing games than I already am. Which is too much as it is.


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Post #: 26
RE: Wow...! - 11/1/2010 7:36:55 AM   
martok


Posts: 837
Joined: 8/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

What is WitP AE?


War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It looks like a massively complex game that I would love to play if only I weren't terrified of it.

+1

I've nearly purchased WTIP:AE twice now (and the original WITP once before that), but have ended up holding off for the time being. Aside from being somewhat daunted by the game's sheer scale and complexity, I just don't see how I'd have time to play it right now!



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Post #: 27
RE: Wow...! - 11/1/2010 9:51:05 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		The nice thing about WitP is:

- you CAN play smaller scenarios like te invasion of Guadalcanal or the Aleuthian Scenario, both should be at least tried a couple of times to get a grip
for game mechanics before jumping the big war.

- there are many others playing with not much time available, like me. I have a RL, play other games and still manage to send a turn for my PBEM (play by email)
every other day. There are situations in the game where you should spend much time on, but hof fast you make progress is entirely up to you
My current game (a 2v1 PBEM) began with the attack on Manila (NOT Pearl Harbour ) this year about mid-August, now, at the beginning of November the game is
in early March 1942. So the game progressed roughly at realtime though I have been at vacation for 3 weeks and had other things to do.
Admittedly it is still a looong commitment to play the whole war, but this is also the thrill of it.

- I have never seen a game supported meticiousely over such a long period of time, and this wont change soon.


Its a moster of a game, but as you can choose the speed of your approach that doesn´t mean much. In case you want to see how a typical start against the AI
would look like I can only reccomend to check a well done AAR made by Sardaukar.
Sardaukar's Newbie Tutorial AAR for Newbies (vs. IJ AI)


The game has its downsides, most of all its source code is years old already and hard to edit for the design team (not only but also because of legal restrictions)
and the GUI, or user interface, is lacking at all ends. But the community is very productive in developing tools to overcome these drawbacks.

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Post #: 28
RE: Wow...! - 11/5/2010 7:35:28 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

The game has its downsides


don't let Castor Troy read that from you ..

Anyhoo , LoBaron convinced me to get this game too, I really miss a good 4X so i'll be downloading shortly , and as the folks over at the AE forum know i'm not known as the quiet retireing type so any questions ill be pestering the veterans and faithful.

FYI .. LoBaron and I are team mates as allies in a Play by mail game of Admirals edition so if you want a feel of what the games like drop in on our AAR (in the relevant sub forum) here :- http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2608600

Maybe we can convert a few of you over to "historical" gaming , or if you read the AE forums you might be tempted to believe its actually "hysterical" gaming at times

Right .. download here i come !

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Post #: 29
RE: Wow...! - 11/5/2010 8:21:36 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

What is WitP AE?


War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It looks like a massively complex game that I would love to play if only I weren't terrified of it.


I normally like micromanagement and massively complex games but even it's pre-pre-cursor, Uncommon Valor, made me want to tear my hair out. Mainly because it felt like I was fighting the interface instead of the AI. It was so sluggish and buttloads of slowly responding clicks eventually persuaded me to shelve it. This coming from someone who actually enjoyed 'Star Wars Rebellion' ages ago when it was getting shot down by reviewers for it's clunky interface.

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(in reply to Igard)
Post #: 30
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