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RE: One Weird Battle

 
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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/27/2010 3:30:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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7/2/42 to 7/4/42
 
India in the Air:  The air war continues to go well for the Allies.  On the 4th, for instance, the Allies scored about a 4:1 victory, with most of the fighting taking place over Bombay.  For some reason, Brad has his bombers targeting the port facilities there.  The damage done is minimal.  (Why he's chose to hit the port rather than the airfield I can't imagine.)  Brad has shown a decided reluctance to engage in any air battles that don't achieve lopsided victories for Japan, so I'm wondering how the situation over Bombay and Poona will affect his strategic decisions.

India at Sea:  I-153 and I-157, stationed near Karachi, picked off three unescorted and empty xAK making for Abadan.  Those are the last unescorted ships I'll use in Arabian Sea.  My picket ships are in place again.  Thus far no signs of the KB.  At this point I'm cautiously optimistic that I can get reinforcements to Karachi without using my carriers.

India on the Ground:  6th Guards Division is probing northeast of Bombay, but the big concentration of troops at Poona hasn't moved.  I have maintained my garrisons at Surat and the base across the bay, both of which are regular recon targets, just in case Brad decides to land north of Bombay. (I'm still uncertain whether those SigInt reports that 2nd Division was aboard ships making for Truk were legit or misinformation.)

SigInt:  Got a report that 14th Division is located at Rabaul, confirming previous SigInt that they were aboard ships making for that port.  This may be a strategic reserve for Japan's SoPac possessions, or, less likely, a force with which to invade someplace like Suva.  14th Division begins the game in Manchuria, so it's interesting that Brad sent them to the Pacific rather than to India.  SigInt also reports 10,000 troops at Onnekotan Jima.  These two reports, taken together, suggest that Brad is taking an active interest in both NoPac and the mid-Pacific island areas.

Tea Leaf Reading:  I have the seed of a hunch that all these things, taken together, suggest that Brad no longer has the resolve to come full bore for India.  At this point it's too early to act on this hunch.  I will continue to send reinforcements to India until I feel sure that the subcontinent is safe.  27th Division (USA) arrives at Capetown in about 12 days.  There's a chance that, by then, I may know better whether the unit is required in India.  If not, she'll remain at Capetown, where I really want to post her for the present.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/27/2010 5:51:10 PM   
Cribtop


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Canoe, my hunch agrees with your hunch. He's got all the easy pickings and VP available in India without assaulting Bombay or crossing The Line. I read the Pacific reinforcements as a force designed to grab a key VP location or two in an attempt at auto-victory. I forgot, has he taken Noumea? Watch the VP hogs in the Pacific IMHO.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 8:28:08 AM   
JeffroK


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IFF the game is only about Auto Victory and IFF there are enough VP within reach, is Brad amassing his forces for a last minute assault that wont ive you time to react before he has the Auto Victory??

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 2:27:44 PM   
Canoerebel


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7/5/42 to 7/7/42
 
For Want of a Nail...:  A Japanese amphibious force is nearing Diego Garcia and is accompanied by the KB.  This is Brad's second effort to take this island, following an unsuccessful effort a few weeks ago. It's little things like this on which the fortunes of war can change.  Had Brad succeeded the first time, or had he just ignored Diego in favor of using the KB to impose a blockade of Karachi - or, even more importantly, to take the island off Italian East Africa - I would be forced to use my carriers to escort the Marine and 27th Division reinforcements to Karachi.  But the KB is far away from these "tender" areas, so it appears that the reinforcement convoys can proceed without the Allied carriers.

India at Sea:  At least four subs between Abadan Channel and Karachi (I-153, 157, 28 and 165).  These will extract their pound of flesh, but definately aren't sufficient to impose a blockade.

India in the Air:  Just when I was getting sanguine about the Allied air defenses of Bombay, a raid of Oscars just ate the Allied CAP alive.  So the air war is still in a state of flux.

India on the Ground:  6th Guards Division is advancing on a dot hex just south of Indore defended by two Aussie brigades and a small Brit armored unit.  The hex is wooded, so I plan to put up a fight.  Allied bombers are targeting 6th Guards without opposition, doing relatively light damage each turn.  No sign of the big IJ spearhead at Poona moving - but Poona is already a level six airfield.  I assume Brad is peparing for a protracted ground/air effort vs. Bombay.

NoPac:  Quiet at the moment.  A few small unit reinforcement TFs have made or are heading to Umnak and Adak.  I sent most of the combat TF down south to aid with the Baker Island invasion.

CenPac:  The components of the Baker Island operation are still enroute to the staging point at Christmas Island.  I still look for Brad to strike at Midway at some point in the game.

SoPac:  9th Sea Bees are two days out of Suva.  I forgot to mentioned that we had a rare surface engagement at Nadi on the 3rd.  An IJN TF led by CA Nachi (I think) and CL Naha tangled with an Allied TF led by CA Indianapolis and CL Mauritius.  Neither side took more than light damage, so the engagement was inconclusive.

Jeffk:  I don't think Brad would engage in "point hunting" of that sort.  IE, I don't think he would target a juicy points location for auto victory purposes unless it made sense strategically long term.  The only target that makes sense from both standpoints probably is Fiji.  Nadi has a garrison of 210 AV.  Suva has 450 AV.  Both bases have CD units.  Assuming he doesn't prep, it might take three divisions to have a chance at taking these bases.  That's a tall task since so much of his army is in India.

Strategic Signals:  SigInt shows 63rd Army Group at Onnekotan Jima.  Ops reports the airfield at Jaffa, on Ceylon, just went to level five.  Brad seems to be preparing to defend India long term.  That suits me, as that's not where the key battles will take place.  On the other hand, there has been minimal base building activity in the area I want the Allies to hit in '43. 

(in reply to JeffroK)
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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 4:35:50 PM   
crsutton


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Q ball seems to be conducting a good smart campaign in India but he really needs KB in the Pacific. I just don't see how Diego Garcia is worth it as you will be able to take it back fairly soon once his attention is elsewhere. It is fine to take Diego as the Japanese player. However, the strategic mistake is what I think is a misuse of KB. Time will tell.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 7:22:52 PM   
paullus99


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At the moment, the KB is the only way he can project the kind of power necessary to move his campaign forward. Unfortunately, as I stated in an earlier post, if he doesn't "close the deal" on India, he's just stuck his arms into a giant tar baby & it is going to result in the kind of attritional campaign that isn't going to end in his favor.

I would find it extremely funny if you did stage a re-invasion of Diego as soon as you found the KB enscounced in the Pacific - that would be very annoying for Q-Ball.

And since India is pretty much the only place he'll be able to pull experienced combat troops to commit against your future offensives, he's really screwed himself in the long-term.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 7:27:25 PM   
Canoerebel


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Paullus, you're exactly right.

As noted at the beginning of the game, the Allies want to engage in a big land/air battle in India or Oz.

Unless Brad halts the reinforcements now on the way to Karachi, I don't think he can close the deal in India.

As for Diego Garcia, the only reason the Allies need the island is to serve as a trip-wire for an invasion of Ceylon or India.  Since Brad invaded four months ago, I have no need for Diego now.  I would consider reinvading, but I don't want to draw his attention to the IO.  I want him focusing upon India, NoPac, Australia, and New Caledonia. 

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 10/28/2010 8:02:59 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/28/2010 8:10:51 PM   
Canoerebel


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This is a collection of excerpts from early-in-the-war posts covering the period from 12/7/41 to 2/1/42.  It is a very long post that may not interest anyone, but it's something I've been meaning to do for awhile, and something I want to refer back to in the future. (Most of you can just skip right on to the next post unless you're really boored.) It shows two things: (1) the change in perception of the threat to India over a two month period early in the game despite Brad's well-orchestrated Oz deception effort; and (2) how early the Allies came up with a grand strategy, thus allowing me to work on troop, ship, and aircraft deployment and logistics from the beginning of the game. That plan is still in effect.

After the 12/10/41 Turn
 

"Scenario Two is a mess, at least for us Allied players who don't want to engage in pilot training.  IJ air power is awesome through at least the end of 1944 judging by my game with Miller.  The Japanese Army is mighty.  Japanese transports are essentially limitless.  And Japanese ASW and submarines are at least the equal of the Allies.  Add to that the fact that I am playing Q-Ball, who is a very capable, organized, deep-thinking opponent...and I've stepped into a pile of doodoo.

"First, some of the ideas and strategies of the Real War and WitP are no longer applicable.  For instance, wiping out a bunch of KB pilots is no longer a big deal since the Japanse can easily replace them and train them.  Second, Allied LBA production and pilot training are no better than equal to the Japanese and perhaps inferior during long stretches of the war.  So it's counter-productive for the Allies to try to engage in a war of attrition in places like Burma.  Allied aircraft are too few and Japanese aircraft are too easy to replace.

"Putting considerations into my pipe and taking a few puffs suggest to me that the hated Sir Robin strategy may well be the way for the Allies to go in Scenario Two.  Protect the valuable assets and excercise extreme restraint before engaging the enemy...and by extreme restraint I'm talking about late 1943 or so.  That will be like two years from now in real life, given one-day turns, so I have no idea if I can control myself, but I'd be better off if I did.

"Short term, the Allies can carefully brandish carriers when the KB is distant, and I'll do that.  For the long term, the only assets I really want to risk are DDs and CLs.  They are fast and can often get themselves out trouble when they blunder into it.  I don't want to risk CAs and BBs which can't extract themselves from trouble.  I'll use them occasionally so that Miller knows they're around, but by and large the Allies will fight a CL/DD war for a long time...and that's a good thing since the Allies have already lost seven BB and a BC.

"So, for the foreseeable future, the only pleasure I get is logistics and training.  I'm going to be conservative with my ships because, to be honest, it doesn't matter whether you get 200k fuel to Tahiti in costly little convoys over the course of two years, or send just a little there and then flood the place when it's much safer.

"As noted previously, I already know where the big Allied push is going to come in 1943.  Until then, much effort will go toward the logistics to prepare for that actions...and the logistics to prepare for the feints that I hope will mislead my opponent so that I can achieve strategic surprise when the time comes.

"I also have to be alert to the possiblity of auto-victory.  My first concerns are Hawaii and Oz; my secondary concerns are India and Russia.  Not much I can do to help Russia (except build forts), but I am already planning for the defense of the other three. 

"So...I don't blame anybody if they push the snooze button and check back in around, say, June 1, 2012."



After the 12/14/41 Turn (new commentary in bold and italics)


We're a week into the game. Since this is my second Scenario Two game (the first being in November 1944 now), what am I going to do differently?

1. Convoy System: I'll use larger, escorted supply convoys. In Game One, I started by using small, unescorted, low value TFs, but they got chewed alive by subs. Excellent idea - escorted convoys are almost never successfully attacked. Unescorted convoys that happen across enemy subs are almost always successfully attacked.

2. No Rushing to the Front: I won't push fuel to the front as hard as I did the first time. My tankers were just torpedo magnets and there isn't really a need to stockpile large quantities early. Works very well. Instead of fuel convoys, I have used escorted AOs placed at strategic bases to refuel long-distance TFs returning to West Coast from Oz. Love how this works. Now that it's July '42, I am beginning to set up regular fuel convoys to safe locations.

3. Not Contesting Parts of the Front: Q-Ball is going to push for Darwin, Port Headland, Noumea, and probably some of the islands like Suva, Pago Pago, Palmyra, and Midway. I believe I can turn penetrations in those areas to my advantage later in the game, so I won't fight hard there. Instead, I want to concentrate on beefing up the garrisons at Oz, Ceylon, and Hawaii to thwart the possibility of an auto-Victory by Q-Ball. Early efforts will also go into strengthening some garrisons in the Aleutians, Diego Garcia, Addu, Tahiti, and Christmas Islands. I have followed this pretty closely. I should note that, early on, I was most concerned about Oz. As Brad began moving on Oz in a big way, however, I became equally concerned about India to the point that I kept one of the two reinforcing Oz divisions there.

4. Fake Major Axis of Advance: Q-Ball knows I have used major invasions of the Kuriles, Sikhalin Island, and the DEI in previous games. Consequently, he'll garrison these bases and see to their defense. As we get well into 1942, the Allies will engage in activity suggesting a threat in these regions. I've focused on this objective in NoPac; not so much in the DEI...yet. Brad is most concerned about Timor/East DEI, though, as shown by his build-up of his west coast Oz bases.

5. Careful in Burma: Q-Ball will at least consider invading northeast India. I won't take a chance on having my Burma army too far forward and therefore isolated. I will get them back far enough to see to the defenses of Calcutta, Chittagong, and (eventually) Akyab. I got my units out of Burma per this plan, but ended up losing some anyway when they took the least optimum routes of retreat when Akyab and Chittagong fell.

6. Supplies and Fuel: Supplies have never been a problem in Game One, but fuel has been scarce from time to time. I'll work on setting up a better infrastructure. Pago Pago and Tahiti don't make great fuel dumps because their small port size restrict loading and unloading in quantity. They should be employed, but I need to develop a better system.

7. Pilot Training: I'm trying to get a handle on this even though I don't enjoy it. Q-Ball does enjoy it and, given the fact that this is something like his third game, he's got too much experience and talent to let him achieve a major advantage in this department. I still don't like pilot training, but I'm working it pretty hard.

After the 12/17/41 turn


...I don't think I have any specific knowledge about Q-Ball's tendencies that will assist me on the operational or tactical levels, but I do know that he's a careful, meticulous, capable player that will be very tough to beat. From a strategic standpoint I can nearly guarantee that he will move on Darwin, Port Headland, Noumea, and Midway. He'll also choose another major attack vector - could be anywhere, but I am most concerned about Oz and Hawaii for no particular reason yet. So far, I've been right about three out four, and I think Midway eventually will be targeted.

After the 12/29/41 Turn


One of the greatest assets the Allies have in the game can be Japan's uncertainty as to where the first big push (or axis of attack) will come, be it late 1942 or '43. Japan has to adequately defend a long perimeter that stretches from the Kuriles to Malaya and Sumatra. At any one point, the Allies can concentrate forces and overwhelm the enemy - at least until the enemy can prepare a counterstrike.

I want Q-Ball to spread his forces as much as possible. Consequently, the Allies will engage in raids throughout the game along this entire perimeter. I will also try to deceive the enemy by showing a "build up" of power in a variety of locations.

When the time comes to attack, the Allies intend for the first big push to be massive, overwhelming, and potentially crippling. Such an offensive can occur at any of five or six locations on the map, but I already have my preferences in mind.

Still sticking to this plan. Instead of employing raids, though, I focused on taking and building up the western Aleutians.

During the 1/12/42 Turn


Oz Under Seige: The Japanese are landing at Broome and the KB has returned to a point just off the coast at Townsville. With Port Moresby and Horn Island just falling and Japanese bombers hitting shipping around Darwin (four more xAKL just went down), things are getting really hot. With these dire developments and with CA Canberra having just gone down in a blaze of glory duking it out with CV Akagi, you can imagine that in real life there would some heightened worry in Australia. Into thise would steam the Queen Elizabeth carrying some fresh-faced, good-natured, and ribald Yanks. This should be quite an event...but it hasn't happened yet. I detailed a DD and AM from Sydney to rendezvous with QE to provide ASW escort, but the meeting ending up slowing down QE so that she won't arrive until tonight. Arg.

Japanese Grand Strategy: From the outset of the game, my two main concerns have been Hawaii and Australia. A committed, well-thought-out Japanese campaign targeting either is a possible route to Japanese auto-victory. At the moment, things are very quiet in Hawaii, though I'm attending to matters there as best I can. But Oz certainly looks hot. I'm not as worried about India, CenPac, New Zealand, or the Aleutians only because they don't represent auto-victory threats (India would except I don't think Japan has a chance of conquering her). I won't be so sure about India in future games!

Alllied Grand Strategy: I would love to duke it out with Japan in Oz (or India, though I don't think that's likely as noted above) as long as I don't get overwhelmed. A land campaign in which the Allies can employ lots of aircraft from a multitude of fields should be beneficial. Moreover, I would love to keep Q-Ball focused on Oz since I have grand plans - long range plans - plans for late 1943 - in a place far, far away. Short term, though, I need soldiers in Oz and that means all eyes are on the QE tonight... Yes!

During the 1/15/42 Turn


Oz By Gosh: Now the Japanese are landing at Portland Roads on the NE coast of Australia. There an Allied DD making a dash for safety from the Torres Strait duked it out with the Kako/Furutaka combat TF, survived, but then was dispatched by RO-66. Q-Ball is enveloping northern Oz in his evil pincers. What I don't know is whether this is the "real thing" or an elaborate ruse designed to distract me from a real target like India or Hawaii. Thus far, the bases he's taken are useful to him for recon purposes, but he hasn't pushed far enough to prove that he's really coming hard. So I'm trying to attend to Oz while not forgetting that he can put a hurting on me elsewhere. I think this was the first time I expressed my incipient concern about India.

During the 1/16 and 1/17/42 Turns


Singapore and India: The Allies have 760 AV behind three forts at Singapore. My fondest hope is that the garrison might last until the end of the month. Once Singapore falls, Japanese shipping (including nasty subs) can move into the Bay of Bengal freely. Brad can shoot to invade Ceylon or the Chittagong area as early as February. Colombo currently has 600+ AV, Trincomalee 100+, Chittagong 300, Calcutta 300, Diamond Harbor 100.

Before the 1/18/42 Turn


Brad is that most dangerous of all Japanese players: bold but careful; fast but methodical; and very experienced.

This is his third AE game - one as Allies and two as Japan (plus plenty of WitP experience). He knows exactly where the Allies are weakest and where he can push with relatively little risk to his forces. He's got everything time to a T, and he knows his opponent about as well as possible.

That said, my only concern at this point is avoiding auto-victory. Do that and preserve my carrier corps and the Allies will be fine in '43 even if Japan has Ceylon, New Zealand, the Aleutians, and the Line Islands. I intend to play cautiously until a good opportunity arises to strike hard. Until then it will be nibbling at the edges.

As for auto-victory, I think there are three routes Brad might choose: India, Australia, or Hawaii (the latter would need additional work, I think). I'm satisfied that India can take care of itself given troop levels, so my main effort will go to reinforcing Oz and Hawaii. All I need are political points to purchase restricted troops! I have withdrawn or disbanded all West Coast squadrons eligible to this point, but PPs gained were meager.

During the 1/20/42 Turn


Japanese Intentions: Still no clear sign whether Brad is targeting Oz, India, Hawaii, or some other locale for his attention. I am so worried about these three "biggies" that nearly all my reinforcements are heading there. On that note, the elements of the Oz division that recently arrived at Aden promptly boarded transports that will stop at Colombo before making the long, hazardous journey to Oz. When the second Oz division arrives at Aden in a few weeks, my current plan is to devote those units to India. India is enough of a concern to warrant one of two Oz divisions arriving in Aden.

Before the 1/21/42 Turn


Here's a look at Allied grand strategy:

1. Avoid Japanese auto-victory and it's red-headed step-child, the one-sided carrier battle loss. Yes!

2. Protect Ceylon, India, Hawaii, and Australia with as many ground troops as I can. Everything else is expendable at this early point in the game (including New Zealand, New Caledonia, the Line Islands, and the Aleutians).

3. Avoid unnecessary wastage of transports, in part by keeping them in safe ports early in the game, and in part by utilizing larger, escorted convoys rather than low-risk, unescorted, single ship TFs.

4. Train - arg! - pilots. Nearly every squadron on the map is training and I think I understand the difference between level 50 experience and level 70 skill, how to train pilots to those levels, and how to move pilots around once they are trained. Try not to commit pilots until experience is 50 and the needed skill is 70. Do not engage in an air war of attrition unless the results are satisfactory (unlike WitP in which any results were satisfactory because the Japanese air force was eroded by each pilot lost).

5. When possible, seek or accept opportunities to effectively attrit Japan's achilles heel - her navy. Celebrate every sinking of a CA or a CL as though it were a national holiday. Japan has precious few of these ships and they don't respawn.

6. Eventually, to create noise in areas that aren't actually targets (ie, diversionary tactics).

7. By the summer or autumn of 1943, attack the enemy in an unexpected place - or at least in a place where by deception or skill or surprise the Allies can achieve overwhelming numerical superiority long enough to take control of the region. Up to that point, Q-Ball will have developed his perimeter defenses. They will be well-thought out, but of necessity they will be spread out as he has to be prepared for a major thrust everywhere from the Kuriles to the Bay of Bengal. Achieving overwhelming superiority will be possible for the Allies at any one place, but once the Allies commit to that vector the enemy will be able to adjust and reorient defenses so that the advantage will eventually disappear. Further progress will be slow and painful. So that first attack had better be (a) massive, (b) successful, (c) in an area vital to the enemy, and (d) accomplished in a manner that permits the Allies to successfully defend the lodgement, build it up, and move forward.

During the 1/22/42 Turn


Japanese Intentions: So, where will Q-Ball head next? Right now all the activity is around Oz, which is ominous indeed. This could be the real thing or, in the hands of a clever deceiver, noise to disguise his real objective. There hasn't been any enemy activity to speak of around Hawaii (including the Line Islands and Midway), nor any particularly threatening around India and Ceylon. All three of these are getting as much attention as I can give at the moment.

During 1/24 to 1/26/42 Turn


Japanese Intentions: I still don't have a good feel for where Q-Ball will head next. Oz seems the logical target given all the attention given there, but I have a hunch the target mgiht be India and/or Ceylon. Hawaii is my third guess.

During 2/1/42 Turn


Ceylon/India: Japan hasn't done anything to suggest that an invasion in this region is coming, but I'm still very suspicious. Another Australian division arrives at Aden in a few weeks, and I think I'll send it to India. Unless, that is, Brad does something in the meantime to confirm that he is focusing on Oz rather than India. Nothings going to happen until Singapore falls, but that won't be long now.



< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 10/28/2010 9:20:29 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 698
RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 7:45:46 AM   
JeffroK


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Jeffk:  I don't think Brad would engage in "point hunting" of that sort.  IE, I don't think he would target a juicy points location for auto victory purposes unless it made sense strategically long term.  The only target that makes sense from both standpoints probably is Fiji.  Nadi has a garrison of 210 AV.  Suva has 450 AV.  Both bases have CD units.  Assuming he doesn't prep, it might take three divisions to have a chance at taking these bases.  That's a tall task since so much of his army is in India.

I think the way the game has progressed has been gamey, using the knowledge of the lines which trigger reos to avoid them is, IMVHO, extremly gamey.

So if, as you mention in your post, Brads approach is to try for AutoVictory, what does he have to do to achieve it?

You aren't going to risk your CV's so those VP are safe.

Sydney, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide & New Zealand are probably safe as would be the Hawaiian Chain.

So, would a careful building up of IJA units in India, behind the lines so you cant see them, be capable of smashing through your lines and picking up the VP for both Bases and destroyed LCU? How close would this get him to AV??
Any Allied reos triggered will have to get past a blockading KB or Surface Fleet, can he move fast enough to beat them to Karachi/Bombay etc

If he still has 12+ Divs in India, I cant him capable of anything else without a major relocation of LCU into now contestable waters, a major change as against doing it in early 42.

Your setup in SOPAC looks OK, but if a big enough army is brought along they will fall.

KB is still a major force, but it cant occupy bases so this means a slow amphib TF trailing along.

Given the need to relocate from India, I cant see anything like this happening for a few months.

This game is now interesting, I believe Brad has kicked himself halfway through the door, he should have already kicked the door in and taken Karachi/Bombay sooner and maybe left the east coast at a lower priority. I also am waiting to see how you get your forces into motion and his reaction.


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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 699
RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 3:04:12 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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7/8/42 to 7/10/42

Jeffk: Well, that's a worrisome thought. If Brad were going to try for victory in that manner, he would need to take Socattu (the island off Italian East Africa) to eliminate reinforcements and supplies making it to Aden and Karachi, plus he probably would need to position the KB or combat TFs near Karachi to close the port. I think it's a long shot. Most of the reinforcements going north from Capetown have already left and the last will do so in about eight days. As for supplies, well, that's a bit of a crap shoot. I would also think that Brad must feel like troops and supplies have been pouring into Karachi. Even with a multitude of divisions at his disposal, he's got to be feeling some pressure. But, there's one ominous development that seems to dovetail with your assessment:

Socattu Island: For the first time, Brad shows an interest in this key island - I-154 nails a supply xAK. If he really intends to give India and auto-victory a go, I think taking Soccatu would be critical for him. I already had part of an Indian brigade on the way from Mombasa, but it won't be enough to stop a serious effort on his part. Soccatu is pretty close to Mombasa, so I may send my carriers there in case a chance to strike develops.

Reinfrocements: The Marine tanks and artillery unit are already nearing Aden. The two Marine regiments will be transiting the narrow passage near Soccatu over the next few days. There's no way the Japanese carriers could reach the area in time to prevent that from happening. But 27th Division (USA) is seven days out of Capetown. From there, it will head north to Mombasa and then on to Aden. That passage could be difficult. Once I have 27th Division past Soccatu, that's it for reinforcements from Capetown. From that point forward, the passage would only be needed for supplies. I'm not sure if Abadan/Aden has sufficient supply potential to keep India going, but I doubt it.

SigInt: Calcutta went to level eight airfield (totally unncessary for Brad to be buidling up this field unless he's doing so for victory points). On Sumatra, Medan airfield to level four and another (Logash or something of the sort) to level one. Japanese garrison at Ketoi-Jima (one of the Kuriles) at 5,688.

Sub Wars: Allied subs have been awfully quiet - lots of hits, but all duds. Flying Fish, however, used her guns to sink an xAKL near Hokkaido. I-170 got an xAKL near Perth. A TF with BB Colorado tangled with I-4 near San Diego, sinking the sub.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 4:14:50 PM   
Chickenboy


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What are your VP levels, CR? Sounds like it's gonna be close...

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 4:32:26 PM   
Canoerebel


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Right now it's 28,600 to 8,300.

That's close enough to give Brad something to shoot for, but it's too early to know how things will shake out. We still have nearly six months left to play before the 4:1 threshhold kicks in on 1/1/43.

Some of the critical factors: Since Brad recently finished off Bataan, there are no more "easy to bag" Allied troop concentrations. He'll have to go for Bombay or Karachi to have a crack at a big group. But the Allied position in India is beginning to grow stronger with additional reinforcements on the way and the Allied air force better able to lend a hand.

A decisive carrier victory would certainly have a huge impact on points totals.

At the moment, air and sea losses tend to favor the Allies in auto-victory calculations. IE, the losses are much less than the 4:1 ratio that Brad would like to achieve. He probably can't count on gaining ground there, so if he really wants auto victory he's got to shoot for high-value bases and big troop concentrations.

But we have a long way to go....

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 4:37:39 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I think the way the game has progressed has been gamey, using the knowledge of the lines which trigger reos to avoid them is, IMVHO, extremly gamey.

JeffK,

Both sides have access to the information about where the 'line of death' is for Indian reinforcements. Both sides have played to the details of this information-on the offense and the defense. Both sides are aware of what VP levels are available for bases held by either side. Both sides know what must be held or taken in order to develop a 4:1 ratio by a certain date. Both sides have been developing strategic plans in accordance with these numbers.

If Q-ball is able to take much of India plus supplement with 'nickel and dime' other bases from which CR has wilfully fled, I see no shame in Q-ball reaping the attendant VPs. It's CR's responsibility (if he wants to avoid auto-victory) to ensure that Q-ball doesn't get there.

I respectfully disagree with your assertions that there's anything gamey going on here. If there is, it's been gamey on both sides, mate. Kind of cancels each other out, IMO.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 4:47:46 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Paullus, you're exactly right.

As noted at the beginning of the game, the Allies want to engage in a big land/air battle in India or Oz.

Unless Brad halts the reinforcements now on the way to Karachi, I don't think he can close the deal in India.

As for Diego Garcia, the only reason the Allies need the island is to serve as a trip-wire for an invasion of Ceylon or India.  Since Brad invaded four months ago, I have no need for Diego now.  I would consider reinvading, but I don't want to draw his attention to the IO.  I want him focusing upon India, NoPac, Australia, and New Caledonia. 


Actually, later in the game, a built up Diego is a pretty good place to hide forces massing for invasions of Lower Burma or Java. Level 5 port I think.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 4:53:39 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I think the way the game has progressed has been gamey, using the knowledge of the lines which trigger reos to avoid them is, IMVHO, extremly gamey.

JeffK,

Both sides have access to the information about where the 'line of death' is for Indian reinforcements. Both sides have played to the details of this information-on the offense and the defense. Both sides are aware of what VP levels are available for bases held by either side. Both sides know what must be held or taken in order to develop a 4:1 ratio by a certain date. Both sides have been developing strategic plans in accordance with these numbers.

If Q-ball is able to take much of India plus supplement with 'nickel and dime' other bases from which CR has wilfully fled, I see no shame in Q-ball reaping the attendant VPs. It's CR's responsibility (if he wants to avoid auto-victory) to ensure that Q-ball doesn't get there.

I respectfully disagree with your assertions that there's anything gamey going on here. If there is, it's been gamey on both sides, mate. Kind of cancels each other out, IMO.



Or would you want both players to pretend that the don't know and act accordingly? Sorry but this genie is out of the bottle. Everybody playing the game should know the triggers in all locations by now. Factoring it into your play just can't be avoided. Gamey or not.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 6:40:28 PM   
Canoerebel


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Surely there's no thought that there's any gaminess going on - in the sense of something unfair or improper.

Both Brad and I are playing the game (so in that sense there's certainly some gaminess involved!) bound by a certain set of rules. Both of us are aware of those rules and endeavoring to win the game within those boundaries.

This game has morphed into quite a strategic battle which I am enjoying immensely even as I fret a bit over the prospect of an embarrassing and very public loss.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 10/29/2010 6:41:02 PM >

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 6:48:56 PM   
JohnDillworth


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It might be a bit gamey but so is knowing the reinforcement arrival dates of each and every unit. I think that there is an option where you might randomize the reinforcement a bit but there is nothing that can be done about the trigger points. In this particular case I believe the worm-holes being so close to Karachi more than make up for knowing the line of death. In the best of all possible worlds there might be an increasing chance of reinforcements being triggered when an opponent approaches a point instead of there being an absolute tripwire. In any event, the players both knew these things going in.

and now back to your regularly scheduled AAR...................

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 7:04:28 PM   
Canoerebel


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Okay, back to the regularly scheduled game.

I'm really struggling to "read the tea leaves" as to Brad's overall intentions. Sometimes I think he's coming full bore for India; sometimes I think he isn't. Whenever I lean one way, I get a piece of information that prompts me to vacillate and swing the other.

My latest musing has been over Brad's deployment of 14th Division to Rabaul (as noted in previous postings about SigInt). If he were coming full bore for India to shoot for auto victory, i would think he would want every possible division he could get. He might even conlcude that anything the Allies could possibly do in the Pacific was irrelevant.

So, his purchase of 14th Division from the Manchurian garrison makes me think India might not be a target.

But then I begin thinking about whether Brad might take a stab at Fiji (those two bases are worth more than 500 points) or even Auckland (worth more than 1,000 points). But both are pretty well defended now and would take a minimum of three divisions, I believe.

So then I get a headache and decide to stop thinking about things for awhile, because I really don't know what's going through Brad's mind.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 9:04:09 PM   
JeffroK


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Both sides have access to the information about where the 'line of death' is for Indian reinforcements. Both sides have played to the details of this information-on the offense and the defense. Both sides are aware of what VP levels are available for bases held by either side. Both sides know what must be held or taken in order to develop a 4:1 ratio by a certain date. Both sides have been developing strategic plans in accordance with these numbers.

Many gamey has the wrong connotation to what I mean, but its having knowledge of the system well beyond what happened IRL and using it.

But really, only QBall can do much positive about this knowledge, Allies get to take advantage if and when they hit the Home Islands.
CR can retreat from any base he wants, but QBall doesn't have to advance if he doesn't want to, or until he is ready.
Its like Hitler saying, Dont take St Vith, it will release 51, 53 Br Inf Divisions and Gds Armd Div (In German of course)
I think the major item to sway which way he goes will be the additional points for destroying LCU & Shipping.

Thats my thought. QBall is building up a force which he believes is irresistible, then in a 2 mth (or so) campaign blitz Bombay & Karachi. IFF this gives him enough points for AV. I believe he should have enough flight decks to create a blockading force as well as a strong KB plus Netty would cover the lanes as well. (He might also have secretly moved 5-6 Divs to Truk and about to assault NZ or the East Coast of OZ.

Or else what can he do, what are all the LCU doing sitting in India, this is the time where the japanese player wins or loses the game. Releasing Manchurian units for Rabaul also shows he isnt emptying India in bulk.
In CR's game against Miller the failure to get much past the DEI gave CR a way back, this time it looks like the Central Pacific will be the chosen route.

PS    I think the Central Pacific a better route for the japanese to "offer".  Defensivly you can set up a number of airbase concentrations (I think 7-8 in the Marianas)which the USN has to fight against without much LBA help (just as IRL)  Given the production advantages in AE & Scen 2 the japanese position should be much stronger, plus without a Midway & Solomons to attrit the IJN CV force they should be more capable of interfering with landing forces.  The DEI approach, while it offered more bases for Allied LBA, offered just as many bases for japanese air forces and more bases to be taken on the approach.

Going to leave you in peace and have a read of QBall's side of things.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 10/29/2010 9:09:25 PM >


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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 11:12:50 PM   
Cribtop


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One point I'd like to make, CR. I often make guesses as to Q's intentions. Just so you know, it is my standing policy to only read one side if both players have AARs in order to ensure I can't slip up and give anything away. In this game it's KILLING me not to peek at Q-Ball's AAR, but I'm sticking to my principle.


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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 11:18:50 PM   
Canoerebel


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7/11/43 to 7/13/43

India on the Ground: The Japanese spearhead is advancing from Poona towards Bombay. There is no hex I'd rather have Brad come after if he's going to come. The Allies have 2500 AV behind six forts. I want to see how many units are in the stack, which will tell me how much Brad has in reserve for invasions or end runs. Also received SigInt that 24th Division is prepping for Surat, the port to the north.

India in the Air: Japanese fighters have been winning every engagement, but not in big numbers. Oddly, Brad hasn't tried to hit Bombay's supply.

India at Sea: If Brad is going to try to reduce Bombay, he likely needs to do three things: (a) cut the road to the north [taking Surat will accomplish this]; (b) bomb Bombay; and (c) bombard Bombay from the sea.

India Reinforcements: A big reinforcement TF leaves the Abadan channel tonight and will arrive at Karachi day after tomorrow. I'm holding my breath for this one. Most of the Marine units have now safely transited the stretch of open ocean between Mombasa and Aden.

NoPac: A Japanese TF sighted well to the SE of Attu. This puzzles me. A base force (60 support) just arrived at Adak Island.

CenPac: The Baker Island invasion elements will all be at the staging point - Christmas Island - within three days. I will debark the troops, allow them to recover from disruption, and then reload. D-Day could be 15 days away.

SoPac: A Sea Bee unit recently arrived at Suva, which will allow me to speed up base building.

Brad's Got to Choose: For Brad to have any chance of success in India he'll have to keep his carriers there and impose a blockade on Karachi. Without carriers in the Pacific, I can't see him trying a major invasion close to big Allied airbases (like Fiji or Auckland).

Pay Attention Now, CR: As I typed this, I realized that Surat is almost certainly a near-term IJ target. I have a bunch of units there, including a CD, but I need to send more. There is a small chance that Brad is trying to draw my units forward so that he can hit a weakened Karachi, but I won't fall for that. Karachi currently has 700+ AV with more about to arrive.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/29/2010 11:19:41 PM   
vettim89


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I am not familiar enough with the production advantages the Japanese get in Scenario 2 but am beginning to wonder about what Brad's fuel situation is at this point. He has a lot of shipping a long way from home right now. That has got to be burning his reserves up. Also if the Japanese have increased airframe production in scenario 2, they don't come free. More airframes means more HI which of course means more fuel.

The reason I bring this up is to possibly reinforce the concept that Brad is playing for Autovictory. All this consumption may lead to a point where it won't matter where KB is because he won't have the fuel to move his carriers. I do not know enough about the Japanese Economy to comment with any level of authority. For those that do know: is it possible that Q-Ball is going to burn the Japanese Economy out? I don't know, but if that is true you must make the 1 January 1943 date D-Day as far as where you will be in this game. Just out of curiosity, what were the states of Palembang and the other DEI bases after Brad conquered them as far as oil/refinery capacity?

One comment: I philisophically have a problem with any player putting too much force along a map edge. It is taking advantage of way too much knowledge as to where convoys will appear. A few subs is not a problem in my mind but parking KB off Karachi seems gamey to me.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 12:11:12 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

One comment: I philisophically have a problem with any player putting too much force along a map edge. It is taking advantage of way too much knowledge as to where convoys will appear. A few subs is not a problem in my mind but parking KB off Karachi seems gamey to me.


So is a wormhole the Japanese can't enter.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 12:35:38 AM   
Canoerebel


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That's the third time I've seen "wormhole" used in recent days and the first time it's been characterized as gamey.  I take it that this term and the "Karachi/Aden" channel have been much discussed in Brad's AAR.  I do not understand the position that the use of this supply channel is improper or gamey.  I don't have any choice in getting ships to and from Aden and it certainly gives Brad some advantages too.  He knows right where my ships will be and he can position there subs (which he's done often), combat ships (which he hasn't done yet), and the KB (he's done that twice).

Cribtop, I know that nobody is giving away info from Brad's AAR, least of all you (since you are a Texan and therefore an honorable man as are all Texans).

I should point out that at this point somebody could post Brad's plan in detail and I would be likely to dismiss it as a deception.  And someone could post the exact opposite of Brad's plan and I'd buy it lock, stock, and barrel.  At this point I am so confused, and under so many conflicting pieces of info, that I have no idea what he might be doing.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 12:49:16 AM   
Cribtop


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I'm confused too, CR! He seemed all in for India and now he seems to have paused there. A move on Surat re-opens India, however. Who knows?


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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 1:52:31 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's the third time I've seen "wormhole" used in recent days and the first time it's been characterized as gamey.  I take it that this term and the "Karachi/Aden" channel have been much discussed in Brad's AAR.  I do not understand the position that the use of this supply channel is improper or gamey.  I don't have any choice in getting ships to and from Aden and it certainly gives Brad some advantages too.  He knows right where my ships will be and he can position there subs (which he's done often), combat ships (which he hasn't done yet), and the KB (he's done that twice).



I was responding to this: "One comment: I philisophically have a problem with any player putting too much force along a map edge. It is taking advantage of way too much knowledge as to where convoys will appear. A few subs is not a problem in my mind but parking KB off Karachi seems gamey to me."

Of course using the off-map system isn't gamey. It's game. But the effect of the Aden to Karachi mechanic designed in is that the Japanese player has no chance to intercept except for the very last bit of the transit. Thus, if he wants to intercept, he has to hang around the edge of the map, with the KB or otherwise. Objecting to placing forces on the edge of the map is nonsensical IMO.

I wonder how AARs would go if the Japanese player could attack CT, Aden, or Abadan? It was certainly possible in RL.



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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 2:07:51 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

I was responding to this: "One comment: I philisophically have a problem with any player putting too much force along a map edge. It is taking advantage of way too much knowledge as to where convoys will appear. A few subs is not a problem in my mind but parking KB off Karachi seems gamey to me."

Of course using the off-map system isn't gamey. It's game. But the effect of the Aden to Karachi mechanic designed in is that the Japanese player has no chance to intercept except for the very last bit of the transit. Thus, if he wants to intercept, he has to hang around the edge of the map, with the KB or otherwise. Objecting to placing forces on the edge of the map is nonsensical IMO.

I wonder how AARs would go if the Japanese player could attack CT, Aden, or Abadan? It was certainly possible in RL.



Guess the developers have to abstract somewhere. You can't have the whole globe in the game, nobody would play it....................well, not many people would.........perhaps only a select number of really hard core.......

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 4:48:29 AM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's the third time I've seen "wormhole" used in recent days and the first time it's been characterized as gamey.  I take it that this term and the "Karachi/Aden" channel have been much discussed in Brad's AAR.  I do not understand the position that the use of this supply channel is improper or gamey.  I don't have any choice in getting ships to and from Aden and it certainly gives Brad some advantages too.  He knows right where my ships will be and he can position there subs (which he's done often), combat ships (which he hasn't done yet), and the KB (he's done that twice).



I was responding to this: "One comment: I philisophically have a problem with any player putting too much force along a map edge. It is taking advantage of way too much knowledge as to where convoys will appear. A few subs is not a problem in my mind but parking KB off Karachi seems gamey to me."

Of course using the off-map system isn't gamey. It's game. But the effect of the Aden to Karachi mechanic designed in is that the Japanese player has no chance to intercept except for the very last bit of the transit. Thus, if he wants to intercept, he has to hang around the edge of the map, with the KB or otherwise. Objecting to placing forces on the edge of the map is nonsensical IMO.

I wonder how AARs would go if the Japanese player could attack CT, Aden, or Abadan? It was certainly possible in RL.




I can see your point Mr. Moose. My point is that the Allies have no control over where those units appear once they are dispatched from an off map base. Couple that with the problems some players have had with trying to reverse course of TF's in the off-map movement displays and it can be a distortion of the map. I understand how it could be frustrating to JFB to not be able to get at those units off-map but the Allied player has no control over the hex the TF's enter the map. If KB is commerce raiding in the SoPac (which is happening in my PBEM right now), the Allied player can reroute convoys to at least attempt to flee from KB. KB or worse some SCTF parked off Karachi and the Allied player can do nothing. Several players have had TF's go into "off-map oblivion" when trying to reverse course in the off-map movement tracks.

In this game if Brad goes for Surat, he can place KB right between Surat and Mombasa and any Allied TF that tries to enter the map to intervene is toast. There are two sides to every coin.

BTW, the Japanese couldn't even mount an effective invasion of PM or Noumea in RL. An invasion of Aden or Abadan is pure folly.

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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 5:39:53 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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I have never tested it, but the manual describes the proceedure where a sea hex can be assigned as the destination for a TF in the transit box, and this need not be a base. IOW, you can dump a TF out of the off-map system into open sea as far west of Karachi as you like. It would extend the time at sea by at least a turn (the "automatic" wormhole is the shortest possible time at sea pre-Karachi), but it's possible to mess with the Japanese defender and draw his defensive zone out to a larger radius.

Your point about not turning back in-route is well-taken. However, the flip side of that is the Allied player's option to spin the TF around in one turn if he gets jumped and send it back, unpursuable. He can also place a damaged TF on Cruise speed to minimize flooding without having to weigh that versus running for his life on the open map.

As for the Mombasa to Surat route, CR of course has the option to use his navy to oppose the KB and get those ships to their destinations. Nobody ever said the defense of Asia was going to be cost free. Right?

And I didn't say an invsion of Aden, Abadan, or Cape Town. I meant a raid. Right now in my game I have 37 xAKs/xAKLs, 6 xAPs, and 6 TKs in Cape Town (mostly upgrading), snug as a bug in a rug. Imagine the complexity of my life if the KB could heave into view at any time . . .



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RE: One Weird Battle - 10/30/2010 8:10:52 AM   
Itdepends

 

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Just select any ocean hex as the destination for your off map task force- you may even be able to set it as a way point to control your exit point. I normally just set an ocean hex and set "remain on station"- pick the ships up as they enter the map.

Daniel

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